Reese Dual Cam Set Up...

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Airstreamer67

And if there is an accident that is claimed to be hitch-related, whose instructions would prevail in the eyes of the jury, the manufacturers' or someone else who has professional experience in the matter? .

Simple answer.

The "laws of Physics" would prevail.

Even good attorneys can't change that.

However, there are thousands of travel trailer owners, who don't believe in Physics, obviously. Additionally, very very few sales people and dealership owners, believe in profit far more than the laws of Physics.

Who suffers?

The RV owner, and in this case, the Airstream trailers, "BIG TIME."

Also makes for a great "bargain sale" on e-bay, along with most of the other fraud that takes place, regarding Airstreams.

Repair shops "love it" when a beat up Airstream shows up for repairs, that was absolutely cause by "over hitching."

Insurance companies, do not cover long term damage, but they do cover, sudden, accidental and direct damages.

Andy

[Driver1]

I'm inclined to go with your view on this, but unfortunately, Andy, when you say "Simple answer. The "laws of Physics" would prevail. Even good attorneys can't change that.", most jurors couldn't understand an explanation of the relevant laws of physics and how they apply. Those jurors would tend to go with the manufacturer's recommendation and consider anything else as negligent.

I'm watching this thread and hoping someone will give me an idea of where to get the lighter bars (With the older non-integrated cams) that I mentioned in an earlier post.

Walt

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Driver1

I'm inclined to go with your view on this, but unfortunately, Andy, when you say "Simple answer. The "laws of Physics" would prevail. Even good attorneys can't change that.", most jurors couldn't understand an explanation of the relevant laws of physics and how they apply. Those jurors would tend to go with the manufacturer's recommendation and consider anything else as negligent.

I'm watching this thread and hoping someone will give me an idea of where to get the lighter bars (With the older non-integrated cams) that I mentioned in an earlier post.

Walt

No jury is expected to know the laws. They are taught what they need to know, at the time of the trial.

Many, many corporations are sucessfully sued everyday, for wrong things, up to including wrong instructions, especially if you live in California.

There are three primary sources of income in California. Work for a living, or sue someone, or be a thief.

The latter two are prefered, since they are not taxable.

Andy

[wheel interested]

Sorry to interrupt but in post 47 I was asking if I had my information right. I have been wrestling with this a long time. Anyone want to go out a limb and tell me specifically what they think about our hitching up...good...adequate...poor and should change it asap? I do appreciate the tips on sources. Thanks.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

I think my bars may need to be changed. I have the 800# bars that I used on the 1/2 ton Expy for the 25' Classic but now we have a 3/4 ton Suburban. To pull the 27' Classic FB now from this infomation I am thinking I am supposed to be using the 600# bars, is that correct?

What supplier are you ordering from? Are these hard to find?

The dealer sent us out with 1200# on the Expy with a 23' Signature International and we downsized those to 800# Is that proper now?

Didn't see your post since I was out of the country.

Because your Suburban is 3/4 ton, you should drop to the 550-600 pound bars.

You should also take the overload leaf spring off.

Andy

[nsteel]

Another thing to think about is if there was an accident and the dealer installed a 600# hitch on a combination where the manuafacturer (Reese)required a 1000# hitch then the dealer would have to prove he was in the right installing a undersized hitch and Reese with their stated 50+ years experience in the hitch business were wrong. I wouldn't want to be in that fight.... To be safe I would think dealers would just go by the recommended chart. What the individual customer does on their own is their risk.
I'm not saying you are in any way wrong, your theory makes plenty sense but I would like to hear why Reese engineers designed it the way they did.

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Simple answer.

The "laws of Physics" would prevail.

Even good attorneys can't change that.

However, there are thousands of travel trailer owners, who don't believe in Physics, obviously. Additionally, very very few sales people and dealership owners, believe in profit far more than the laws of Physics.

Who suffers?

The RV owner, and in this case, the Airstream trailers, "BIG TIME."

Also makes for a great "bargain sale" on e-bay, along with most of the other fraud that takes place, regarding Airstreams.

Repair shops "love it" when a beat up Airstream shows up for repairs, that was absolutely cause by "over hitching."

Insurance companies, do not cover long term damage, but they do cover, sudden, accidental and direct damages.

Andy

[wheel interested]

Thank you Andy and welcome back home. I appreciate your input. The bars are an easy change out but taking the overleaf spring off didn't go over real well with dh. Will the bars alone be substantially better rigging even if the overleaf spring remains, albeit not optimum?

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

Thank you Andy and welcome back home. I appreciate your input. The bars are an easy change out but taking the overleaf spring off didn't go over real well with dh. Will the bars alone be substantially better rigging even if the overleaf spring remains, albeit not optimum?

The reduction in the weight rating of the bars will help. Further help would be removal of the overload leaf.

It's interesting to note that every single time, that someone has reduced the rating of their bars, they have all reported, on this Forums, that they noticed a definite improvement.

As critical as many of the members are on this Forums, I find that very very interesting. No theories, but stated facts from those that switched.

Reese engineers did not put that chart together, their sales department did it.

Tomorrow is a busy day for me, so I think I will call the head of Reese Friday, and have a discussion with him, about the stupidity of that chart and what their customer service staff is told to say.

Again, in spite of their excellence, Reese has NEVER, EVER, in their entire existence, investigated the cause of a loss of control accident while towing a travel trailer.

On the other hand, I have, over 1000 times, and came up with several reasons why that happens, in over 95 percent of the time That data was challenged several times, without anyone, EVER, being able to dispute the findings.

An over rated hitch was one of the major causes. Lack of sway controls, overload springs, improperly inflated air lifts or air bags, were all major contributors, as well as some other factors.

In some cases, two, and once in a while more, of those factors, were found in some of those losses.

Data, is data. It becomes extremely difficult, if not impossible, to dispute. Opinions don't count. Research does count.

But the hitch manufacturers, including Reese, are satisfied to keep the real information, that none of them have ever researched, away from the public.

I for one, intend to challenge the "PHONY" chart that Reese has published, and to stop the "nonsense" that Reese's customer service people hand out.

I have the data. Reese does not. No other hitch manufacturer, has that data either.

Lets see how many members of this Forums make the change and then lets see how many of them report positive or negative findings, or evaluations.

This subject was brought up again and again, over 35 years ago, with no results.

Lets now see, if the "silence" is still the golden rule.

Andy

[Silvertwinkie]

Hi Carol and all.

I found Andy to be dead on here. I know I posted this before, but when I read the Overhitched thread, I decided to put it to the test.

I had 1200lb bars, bought a set of used trunnion style 800lb bars and also 600lb bars. Each step down in bar size (mind you with a 3/4 ton Suburban--your results could vary), did show a significant improvement from the 1200lb bars, and a noticiable difference between the 800 and the 600lb bars. I stayed with the 600lb bars and have been very satisfied with the overall performance of the quality of feel of the tow rig in action.

I would strongly recommend anyone with a 3/4 ton suspension or more go to eBay, buy some inexpensive trunnion style bars (far less expensive than even on-line retail sales) from a reputable seller and do a test for yourself. My real world tests indicated that downgrading the bars and not being overhitched, using a dual cam system was exactly what the system seemed to need to make it work well.

I was asked via PM if I have to really flex the bars to get a load to the front axle, the answer is no. When I had 1200lb bars, I had to use 6 or more chain links to get the rig level and get any spring action on the 1200s at all. This was difficult, because the rig would level far easier than it was to get any flex out of the 1200s. As you know, having some bend/tension on the bars is critical for the dual cam to work properly. Using the 800lb bars, I was using I believe 5 to get a level rig and good flex, even though I had more flex than with the 1200s and better tow exp, I still applied the 600s next. Going to 600lb bars seemed a bit scary from the standpoint that I have about 800lbs of hitch weight, maybe more depending on how much junk I pack (the factory stated weight of the 25' Safari SS was 750lbs, I placed a hitch scale on and found when packed like a rat, I had around 800lbs-- that is how I came up with 800lbs of hitch weight). The issue you have to understand, as I see it, is that you are not taking the full hitch weight and transferring all of it, just some of it. Some to the front axles of the TV, and some back to the axles of the trailer, whiles some remains on the rear axle of the TV. I was nervous that the 600s would snap in half because in my mind, I had 800+lbs of hitch weight, and was only going to put 600lb bars on?! I though I was nuts, but I did it anyway and they didn't break because, I'm not putting the full 800lbs of load across the bars. Now if I had higher hitch weights, clearly, you could NOT use the 600s, but with my 25' Safari and it's hitch weight and my 3/4 ton Suburban, it worked well.

With the 600s and my setup (your results could very, so do your testing and homework to find your best setup) I get good flex, level ride, weight distributed using only 4 chain links. Wind, evasive maneuvers (with or without hard braking), general towing and blow by significantly improved.

I now have thousands of miles (maybe 10k) with the 600lb bars. I sold my 1200s on eBay and have never looked back and haven't taken out my overload spring....yet, though I can see how it could improve things a bit more, the fact is that with the 600s alone, I found it to be a night and day difference from the 1200s I was using.

I suppose a Hensley would behave even better, but I don't have, nor want to spend about $3k on a hitch and for the prices paid, the dual cam, as advertised here does a great job IMHO.

[wheel interested]

My thanks again to Andy and Eric. Eric you probably were the biggest persuader for us to move to the 3/4. And you were very right about the comfortable stable driving. I am very happy with the Suburban, albeit it's SO big. That's OK our fur baby zoo has grown. You both are very good and helpful to take your time and energy to urge members to examine their systems and and share your knowlege and experience.

[Silvertwinkie]

Originally Posted by wheel interested

My thanks again to Andy and Eric. Eric you probably were the biggest persuader for us to move to the 3/4. And you were very right about the comfortable stable driving. I am very happy with the Suburban, albeit it's SO big. That's OK our fur baby zoo has grown. You both are very good and helpful to take your time and energy to urge members to examine their systems and and share your knowlege and experience.

It's all about sharing our exp and saving someone some time, energy and money. I love my Burb. The only downside is that it currently costs $130 to fill it.

Glad you've found some of the info useful.

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie

I love my Burb. The only downside is that it currently costs $130 to fill it.

If you were in California, that $130.00, would only fill a small gas tank.

Andy

[SteveH]

I recently sold our '75 23' Safari and bought an '01 25' Excella, and the dealer sold me the Reese Dual Cam hitch setup with the trailer. The bars that I have are the 800 pound bars, which correspond to the actual advertised tongue weight of the trailer. My tow vehicle is an '07 GMC 1/2 ton, extended cab pickup equipped with the towing package which includes the HD suspension. So, what I am understanding in this thread is, I would be better off, both ride quality and handling, with the 600 pound bars? Is this correct?

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by SteveH

I recently sold our '75 23' Safari and bought an '01 25' Excella, and the dealer sold me the Reese Dual Cam hitch setup with the trailer. The bars that I have are the 800 pound bars, which correspond to the actual advertised tongue weight of the trailer. My tow vehicle is an '07 GMC 1/2 ton, extended cab pickup equipped with the towing package which includes the HD suspension. So, what I am understanding in this thread is, I would be better off, both ride quality and handling, with the 600 pound bars? Is this correct?

You are correct.

Unfortunately, Reese TOTALLY ignores the tow vehicle from it's chart.

You certainly would not use the same bars on an Chevy car, as you would on a Peterbilt.

Change the bars. You will notice a softer ride and better sway control.

Again, the Airstream trailer loves a soft ride. Anything that's done to transfer road shock to the trailer, will ultimately cause damage to the trailer, based on my 42 plus years experience with Airstream trailers.

Stiff tow vehicle springs, air lifts or air bags improperly inflated, Monroe load levelers, Excessive rated torsion bars, and lack of proper running gear balance, all contribute to damaging the trailer.

Most shops don't care, if an owner abuses his Airstream.

Why?

They get to put it back together again, at the owners expense, since insurance companies will not pay for "long term damages."

Andy

Andy

[nsteel]

I am anxious to see how the head of Reese responds when you call him today. Hopefully we can get a final answer and solution. Please let us know what they say.
Thanks

Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In

Reese engineers did not put that chart together, their sales department did it.

Tomorrow is a busy day for me, so I think I will call the head of Reese Friday, and have a discussion with him, about the stupidity of that chart and what their customer service staff is told to say.


Andy

[norsea]

I received a box from etrailer yesterday; this was supposed to contain the two 600 lb spring bars I ordered; supposed to being the opeative phrase. Only one spring bar was in the box. I suspect the second one escaped through one the two rather large holes in the box and is somewhere between OR and MO. Why they put them in such a large box with no packing materials inside the box to contain movement is beyond me.

etrailer responded to my email this morning telling me that they had no more of these in stock. Given that my email to them had steam escaping from the envelope I am sure they knew that this news would not be well received; it was not.

They told me Reese would be drop shipping another bar from their CA operation and that I would have it Thursday.

So, with a little luck I will be using these next week when we weigh anchor for our trip east and then south for the winter.

I will get pictures and weights, etc., on our way out; we will be stopping at two different public scales as we head east. Then it will just be a question of getting a good internet connection so I can post the updated picture and weight info to this thread.

Jim

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by norsea

I received a box from etrailer yesterday; this was supposed to contain the two 600 lb spring bars I ordered; supposed to being the opeative phrase. Only one spring bar was in the box. I suspect the second one escaped through one the two rather large holes in the box and is somewhere between OR and MO. Why they put them in such a large box with no packing materials inside the box to contain movement is beyond me.

etrailer responded to my email this morning telling me that they had no more of these in stock. Given that my email to them had steam escaping from the envelope I am sure they knew that this news would not be well received; it was not.

They told me Reese would be drop shipping another bar from their CA operation and that I would have it Thursday.

So, with a little luck I will be using these next week when we weigh anchor for our trip east and then south for the winter.

I will get pictures and weights, etc., on our way out; we will be stopping at two different public scales as we head east. Then it will just be a question of getting a good internet connection so I can post the updated picture and weight info to this thread.

Jim

Jim, I and I'm sure many others will be eagerly awaiting your evaluation of the hitch's performance with the lighter bars.

Steve

[norsea]

Originally Posted by SteveH

Jim, I and I'm sure many others will be eagerly awaiting your evaluation of the hitch's performance with the lighter bars.

Steve

etrailer strikes again.

I received yet another email this morning telling me that the bar would not be shipping from CA but from Michigan; scheduled to arrive 12 August.

One thing for sure - customer service is NOT etrailers' strong suit.

Stay tuned for further adventures....

Jim

[norsea]

Hallelujah!!!

Our second spring bar arrived today.

The plan is to hook up to the trailer tomorrow am and head for the scales.

If we are able to get to the scales I will post something tomorrow in the way of photos and weights.

Jim

PS: Did I mention that etrailer contacted me early this week asking that I send them the box that the original bars were shipped in? I couldn't believe it; more than a week after it arrived. To bad it had gone into the trash several days after it arrived.

[norsea]

The temperature here finally broke and we have been under 100 degrees for the past several days. I took advantage of this and got the the 600 pound trunnion (spring) bars installed. The first thing I discovered is that the bars are significantly shorter than the other bars I had been using. This caused me to change the adjustments on the sway control units so they "fit" the new bars; by more than an inch.

We then headed for the scales by way of a cul de sac where I was able to watch the action of the hitch as my wife drove around the circle. Needless to say the hitch was pushed to its extreme operating positions as far as the degree of the turn; we came close to jack knifing things but made it.

My first observation is that had we tried this with the old bars we would NOT have made it. I think tight turns were causing the sway units to bend with the old bars. Not only are the old bars longer, they are wider as well at the tips where they rest atop the sway control units. With these narrower bars there was more room for them to move laterally as well as length wise as we went around. The narrow bars allowed for more freedom at extreme angles when the bars tend to twist when extended to the end of the bar over the sway control. Because they are narrower they had more room in the sway control as the angle become more acute.

From here we headed to the scales. Sames exact weights as posted in the first message of this tread.

The ONLY difference with this set up is that the top of the hitch on the trailer is now 19" (19.75 previously) off the ground and I have been able to take off one more link on the pull up chains for the spring bars.

The BIG difference with these bars is that there is absolutely no way I can take off any more links on the chains. The pull up bracket is rotated so it is full down when the chains are attached. It is physically impossible for me to physically pull the bars up further in order to reduce the number of links and thereby increase the tension on the bars. Please note that this was done with the trailer tongue jack raised to its absolute highest position in order to make the "pull up" process as easy as possible.

As for the ride. I notice that it is not as "stiff" as when we used the other bars. I do not know how to quantify this; it is very subjective and based totally on feel. I do notice that the rebound action of the shocks on the rear of the truck seems to have more action now than previously when they tended to not react much to surface irregularities. I hope this makes sense.

Any rate, I think my problems are solved.

Here are the photos from the scale.