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08-24-2014, 07:27 PM
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#81
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4 Rivet Member
Livingston
, Texas
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfox
I looked high and low and cannot find anything that indicates my TW-rating. your comment about exceeding the TW rating is a concern but I cannot find it anywhere.
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Usually the TW ratings (with and without WD) are printed on a label attached to the receiver.
Other than the unknown TW rating, your numbers look good to me.
I would not change the WDH adjustment -- that will not change the TW.
If you transfer more load to the TV's front axle, you'll be even farther away from Ford's specification for front axle load restoration.
The present value of FALR = 74% is a good compromise between Ford's current 50% and the value of 100% implied by their previous WDH specification.
Ron
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08-24-2014, 07:36 PM
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#82
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Rivet Master
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Central
, Canada
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,082
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Hi Ron:
I just ran out (in pouring rain...lol) and tried to find the label but there is nothing. The truck is not all that old, but I guess it must have fallen off. Even tried to find something on the net but no luck - sorry
Cheers
Doug
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Gratz
Usually the TW ratings (with and without WD) are printed on a label attached to the receiver.
Other than the unknown TW rating, your numbers look good to me.
I would not change the WDH adjustment -- that will not change the TW.
If you transfer more load to the TV's front axle, you'll be even farther away from Ford's specification for front axle load restoration.
The present value of FALR = 74% is a good compromise between Ford's current 50% and the value of 100% implied by their previous WDH specification.
Ron
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__________________
Trying to use my camera to create memories - not photographs!
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08-24-2014, 07:38 PM
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#83
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Rivet Master
2012 30' Flying Cloud
San Antonio
, Texas
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 682
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Doug, I know nothing about this compared to Andrew and Ron. I did set down and do some math about your situation. Came up with the exact number to use: 2500.
That's the model number of your new truck. While at it, throw a diesel under the hood to help put some weight back on that forward axle. Make it a 4x4. Might as well go all the way.
Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums
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08-24-2014, 07:46 PM
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#84
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Rivet Master
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Central
, Canada
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,082
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LOL - Howard I LOVE your math, but my pocketbook might not....
Now if I lived in Texas I could have a BIG TRUCK and actually find a place to park it. More important - have the $$ to pay for it.
Thanks for your most valuable input I will pass your advise on to my accountant (wife) and tell her that Howard says this is the only way the numbers work....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard L.
Doug, I know nothing about this compared to Andrew and Ron. I did set down and do some math about your situation. Came up with the exact number to use: 2500.
That's the model number of your new truck. While at it, throw a diesel under the hood to help put some weight back on that forward axle. Make it a 4x4. Might as well go all the way.
Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums
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__________________
Trying to use my camera to create memories - not photographs!
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08-24-2014, 08:01 PM
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#85
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Rivet Master
2012 30' Flying Cloud
San Antonio
, Texas
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 682
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Glad you LOL. I talked a good bit to a new 28 owner camping in Santa Fe, NM last month. Did not really get much into his TV, but it was a new 150 Ford EB and he was very happy with performance. I know nothing about his weights, but he had come all the way from the Florida Keys and was carrying a bunch of stuff with him.
You are right about TX. I'm a little guy here. A 3500 dually is a Texas TV.
Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums
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08-24-2014, 08:04 PM
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#86
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Rivet Master
Commercial Member
2019 27' Tommy Bahama
London
, Ontario
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,343
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While out there I also noted that there is (no) washers at all in the stinger pin. (the one I circles in a photo earlier) Not sure why but there is only the pin. Also noted that the adjuster bars that run from the Torsion cranks to the torsion bars have (three) adjustment holes. My hitch is hooked in the centre hole of the three adjustment holes.
Hi Doug
I would say if your hitch was on that angle with no washers then you are getting very little weight transfer which your numbers would show. Once you have the washers in place adjust your torsion bars so that the back of the truck is within 1.25" of its original ride height. The front of the truck should be at its original ride height or ideally 1/4" lower.
I think you will find the ride and handling better with these settings. Your hitch receiver is fine. Newer F150's are one of the few we do not need to reinforce.
Andrew T
__________________
Andrew Thomson London, Ontario
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions." Tex Johnston, Boeing 707 test pilot
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08-24-2014, 08:10 PM
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#87
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Rivet Master
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Central
, Canada
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,082
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Thanks Howard:
I actually went down to the ford dealer today, but darn the F250 are sure big! It would be nice to try and make my F150 last a bit longer (only 1 year old) or maybe upgrade it with a different rear-end or something to try and help things out.
By the day, I see you hare a retired Pilot. If you don't mind me asking who did you fly for? We might know a few of the same people.
Cheers
Doug
Quote:
Originally Posted by Howard L.
Glad you LOL. I talked a good bit to a new 28 owner camping in Santa Fe, NM last month. Did not really get much into his TV, but it was a new 150 Ford EB and he was very happy with performance. I know nothing about his weights, but he had come all the way from the Florida Keys and was carrying a bunch of stuff with him.
You are right about TX. I'm a little guy here. A 3500 dually is a Texas TV.
Sent from my iPad using Airstream Forums
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__________________
Trying to use my camera to create memories - not photographs!
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08-24-2014, 08:14 PM
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#88
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Rivet Master
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Central
, Canada
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,082
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Thanks for this Andrew - I will add a couple washers in and adjust things in the morning. With luck it will help things out
Thanks again for all your help
Cheers
Doug
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T
While out there I also noted that there is (no) washers at all in the stinger pin. (the one I circles in a photo earlier) Not sure why but there is only the pin. Also noted that the adjuster bars that run from the Torsion cranks to the torsion bars have (three) adjustment holes. My hitch is hooked in the centre hole of the three adjustment holes.
Hi Doug
I would say if your hitch was on that angle with no washers then you are getting very little weight transfer which your numbers would show. Once you have the washers in place adjust your torsion bars so that the back of the truck is within 1.25" of its original ride height. The front of the truck should be at its original ride height or ideally 1/4" lower.
I think you will find the ride and handling better with these settings. Your hitch receiver is fine. Newer F150's are one of the few we do not need to reinforce.
Andrew T
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__________________
Trying to use my camera to create memories - not photographs!
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08-24-2014, 08:41 PM
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#89
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4 Rivet Member
Livingston
, Texas
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfox
---I will add a couple washers in and adjust things in the morning. With luck it will help things out---
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Doug, there are differing opinions as to how a WDH should be adjusted.
The following provides an explanation for changes which have been made by some TV and WDH manufacturers during the past four years:
Since 2010, Ford has specified that their F-series trucks should have the WDH adjusted to eliminate approximately 50% of the front end rise due to tongue weight. That corresponds to restoring approximately 50% of the load which was removed from the front axle.
When the WDH is properly adjusted, the front might be up about a half inch and the rear might be down 1-1.5" -- depending on tongue weight.
I think the reason Ford, Chevrolet, Toyota, Equal-i-zer, Reese and others have changed their weight distribution specifications is pretty well summed up in this Letter to Editor by Richard H Klein, P E printed in TRAILER BODY BUILDERS Magazine. The comment which specifically addresses front axle load is:
QUOTE
[blue]2. The statement “too much tongue weight can force the truck down in the back, causing the front wheels to lift to the point where steering response and braking can be severely decreased” is not the real issue with heavy tongue weights. The real problem is that the tow vehicle's yaw stability, as measured by “understeer gradient”, is severely decreased. This increases the propensity of the tow vehicle to jackknife in turning maneuvers. Specifically, recent full scale testing conducted by the SAE Tow Vehicle Trailer Rating Committee (and now published in SAE J2807), determined that the use of weight distributing hitch torque should be minimized. In fact they recommend that the Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) not exceed 100% (100% means that the front axle weight is brought back, via weight distribution, to a weight equal to its “no trailer” condition).[/blue]
UNQUOTE
A related explanation from a representative of the company which manufactures the Equal-i-zer hitch was first posted here. It says:
QUOTE
[blue]In the past we had suggested that you should see a small drop on the front suspension. We are always trying to improve things here at Progress – our motto is “Safe and Happy Customers,” and so we are always reviewing our instructions and installation process. Recently, as part of this constant effort our engineers looked more deeply into this aspect of installation. We had always felt that a small drop was a sign that the trailer’s weight was being transferred to the front axle, and that this was essentially a good thing.
As our engineers reviewed the instructions for the last round of renewal of our instructions, the{y} found research results that contradicted our prior thinking. There has been a substantial amount of testing conducted by experts from SAE and the RV Industry Association to find out what will produce the best stability when towing. This towing suggests that you want your front axle’s compression to be close to, but not lower than your free-standing height.[/blue] (Underline added for emphasis.)
UNQUOTE
Ford says the Front Axle Load Restoration should be approximately 50%.
Chevrolet/GMC says the FALR should be 100%, 50% or 0% depending on TV model and TT weight.
Reese now includes the following in some of their WDH installation instructions:
[blue]8. A new term in the industry is (“FALR” – Front Axle Load Return).
100% FALR Means the front fender is returned to the preload position.
That is our recommendation for best performance.[/blue]
Equal-i-zer says the Front Axle Load Restoration should be between 50% and 100%.
Equal-i-zer's revised instructions specifically state:
[blue]Good adjustment:
You have most likely achieved good weight distribution adjustment if your measurements show the following with the trailer coupled and the weight distribution engaged:
1. From the coupled without weight distribution measurement, the front wheel well measurement is at least halfway back to the original uncoupled measurement. See line C on Front Wheel Well Measure Chart.
2. The rear wheel well measurement is somewhere between the uncoupled height, and the coupled with no weight distribution height. It should NEVER be higher than the uncoupled height. See line C on Rear Wheel Well Measure Chart. See Figure 19.[/blue]
Adding more load to the front axle might make the ride feel better.
In the words of Richard Klein, it also might "increase the propensity of the tow vehicle to jackknife in turning maneuvers".
Just for your consideration --
Ron
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08-24-2014, 09:00 PM
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#90
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Rivet Master
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,714
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arcticfox
Hi Doug:
Are you talking about the washers that are located here?
and your thinking Andrew is recommending I add (2) washers?
Thanks
Doug
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Doug, it looks to me like you are missing a bolt in the lower drop bar hole. Also the top and lower bolts should have washers on them. I don't think you can get much weight transfer without the lower bolt.
Check your installation manual or images online.
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles
The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
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08-24-2014, 09:20 PM
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#91
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Rivet Master
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Central
, Canada
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,082
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum
Doug, it looks to me like you are missing a bolt in the lower drop bar hole. Also the top and lower bolts should have washers on them. I don't think you can get much weight transfer without the lower bolt.
Check your installation manual or images online.
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Hi Doug:
The image I posted earlier is just one I found on the net as I had not been out to the shop to photograph mine. So as an update; here is a picture of my actually hitch. I have a total of (3) bolt in mine including the one on the bottom. I'm not sure why the installer put 3 but they did. Hope thats not hurting anything.
As for the washers your talking about - I have marked on the blow-up in the image of the washers I'm talking about as I think they go on that little pin? Is that what your meaning?
Thanks
Doug
__________________
Trying to use my camera to create memories - not photographs!
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08-24-2014, 09:26 PM
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#92
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Rivet Master
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,714
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Okay, that photo was not yours, someone else is missing a bolt and has their tilt maxed out.
On your drop bar you probably need 2 or 3 washers to get the w.d. bars tilted down low enough for weight transfer, but one can only estimate.
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles
The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
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08-24-2014, 09:39 PM
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#93
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Rivet Master
2013 28' Flying Cloud
Central
, Canada
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,082
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TKS Doug.....
__________________
Trying to use my camera to create memories - not photographs!
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08-25-2014, 06:24 AM
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#94
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Rivet Master
Vintage Kin Owner
N/A
, N/A
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Gratz
Doug, there are differing opinions as to how a WDH should be adjusted.
The following provides an explanation for changes which have been made by some TV and WDH manufacturers during the past four years:
Since 2010, Ford has specified that their F-series trucks should have the WDH adjusted to eliminate approximately 50% of the front end rise due to tongue weight. That corresponds to restoring approximately 50% of the load which was removed from the front axle.
When the WDH is properly adjusted, the front might be up about a half inch and the rear might be down 1-1.5" -- depending on tongue weight.
I think the reason Ford, Chevrolet, Toyota, Equal-i-zer, Reese and others have changed their weight distribution specifications is pretty well summed up in this Letter to Editor by Richard H Klein, P E printed in TRAILER BODY BUILDERS Magazine. The comment which specifically addresses front axle load is:
QUOTE
[blue]2. The statement “too much tongue weight can force the truck down in the back, causing the front wheels to lift to the point where steering response and braking can be severely decreased” is not the real issue with heavy tongue weights. The real problem is that the tow vehicle's yaw stability, as measured by “understeer gradient”, is severely decreased. This increases the propensity of the tow vehicle to jackknife in turning maneuvers. Specifically, recent full scale testing conducted by the SAE Tow Vehicle Trailer Rating Committee (and now published in SAE J2807), determined that the use of weight distributing hitch torque should be minimized. In fact they recommend that the Front Axle Load Restoration (FALR) not exceed 100% (100% means that the front axle weight is brought back, via weight distribution, to a weight equal to its “no trailer” condition).[/blue]
UNQUOTE
A related explanation from a representative of the company which manufactures the Equal-i-zer hitch was first posted here. It says:
QUOTE
[blue]In the past we had suggested that you should see a small drop on the front suspension. We are always trying to improve things here at Progress – our motto is “Safe and Happy Customers,” and so we are always reviewing our instructions and installation process. Recently, as part of this constant effort our engineers looked more deeply into this aspect of installation. We had always felt that a small drop was a sign that the trailer’s weight was being transferred to the front axle, and that this was essentially a good thing.
As our engineers reviewed the instructions for the last round of renewal of our instructions, the{y} found research results that contradicted our prior thinking. There has been a substantial amount of testing conducted by experts from SAE and the RV Industry Association to find out what will produce the best stability when towing. This towing suggests that you want your front axle’s compression to be close to, but not lower than your free-standing height.[/blue] (Underline added for emphasis.)
UNQUOTE
Ford says the Front Axle Load Restoration should be approximately 50%.
Chevrolet/GMC says the FALR should be 100%, 50% or 0% depending on TV model and TT weight.
Reese now includes the following in some of their WDH installation instructions:
[blue]8. A new term in the industry is (“FALR” – Front Axle Load Return).
100% FALR Means the front fender is returned to the preload position.
That is our recommendation for best performance.[/blue]
Equal-i-zer says the Front Axle Load Restoration should be between 50% and 100%.
Equal-i-zer's revised instructions specifically state:
[blue]Good adjustment:
You have most likely achieved good weight distribution adjustment if your measurements show the following with the trailer coupled and the weight distribution engaged:
1. From the coupled without weight distribution measurement, the front wheel well measurement is at least halfway back to the original uncoupled measurement. See line C on Front Wheel Well Measure Chart.
2. The rear wheel well measurement is somewhere between the uncoupled height, and the coupled with no weight distribution height. It should NEVER be higher than the uncoupled height. See line C on Rear Wheel Well Measure Chart. See Figure 19.[/blue]
Adding more load to the front axle might make the ride feel better.
In the words of Richard Klein, it also might "increase the propensity of the tow vehicle to jackknife in turning maneuvers".
Just for your consideration --
Ron
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Thanks for the very informative post Ron. I always thought there must be a negative impact for transferring too much weight to the front axle (besides possibly overloading the front axle). I guess this post explains that, and shows the trade offs.
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08-25-2014, 06:54 AM
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#95
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Rivet Master
2007 30' Classic
Oswego
, Illinois
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 13,656
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dkottum
Okay, that photo was not yours, someone else is missing a bolt and has their tilt maxed out.
On your drop bar you probably need 2 or 3 washers to get the w.d. bars tilted down low enough for weight transfer, but one can only estimate.
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Although I have a HAHA, I do have a "PP adjustable stinger for Hensley" made by Sean. With a 2" receiver, I have found 3 washers is about right. On a 2.5" receiver, with a reducer, I use all the washers there is room for, due to the extra slop in the receiver/sleeve setup. Also, I have noted that as the pin head and the stinger bar wear in (say after 5000 miles) there will be enough deformation, or "seating" that you may need to go back and add another washer. I believe I now have 5 in mine (2.5" receiver w/sleeve).
__________________
-Rich-
"If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy." - Red Green
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08-25-2014, 07:10 AM
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#96
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Rivet Master
2012 25' Flying Cloud
Battle Lake
, Minnesota
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,714
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Returning from our last long trip with a heavy load I believe our ProPride w.d. bars are too high, so we could add washers for more tilt.
__________________
Doug and Cheryl
2012 FC RB, Michelin 16, ProPride 1400
2016 Ram 1500 Laramie Crew Cab 4X4 Ecodiesel 3.92 axles
The Truth is More Important Than the Facts
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12-20-2014, 06:51 PM
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#97
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cwf
I cannot say what anyone else's experience is. Thanks to everyone for their mutual respect of this fact.
For myself, I know there is a significant difference with each level and type of hitch/tow experience.
The 'projected link' or whatever name is used in the Hensley and/or ProPride is a unique tow experience... from my experience with bumper pull to receiver to fifthwheel, gooseneck, inline horse trailers to stock, car, moving, boat trailers... about the only thing I have not towed is an 18 Wheeler or mobile home trailer...
The ProPride I own does a significantly improved job of managing 'sway' and directional control/stability/aggressive maneuver.
It was way more money than I wanted to spend, but had a 'money back' guarantee...so, what did I have to 'lose'?
Actually it was a real 'experiment'... my thoughts were/are... "ok.. prove it".
Me and my big mouth...
Now my wife pulls the AS with care, respect and an increased confidence she can handle whatever the road throws at us.
Compare that to her first experience towing the AS (she is an accomplished trailer tow) where we had the Eze WD and anti-sway to the ProPride and it is a 'whole new trailer'.
Compare the ability to perform very aggressive swerve moves where curb side tires were off the pavement and easy recovery back onto the pavement without the dreaded 'jerk' into oncoming traffic, it proved itself... several times.
Compare ability to just 'point' the tow vehicle to avoid roadway sinkholes and the AS falls in just fine...thanks ProPride...
Compare ProPride ability to not let trailer/tow vehicle get 'out of alignment' in the first place (some anti-sway products merely dampen the deflection rate).. thanks ProPride...
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Ok, we finally got to make our first real trip with the Hensley, and well, my wife doesn't need me for my driving skills either...
1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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12-20-2014, 07:44 PM
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#98
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Vintage Kin
Fort Worth
, Texas
Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 8,014
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Finger tip control, huh?
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12-20-2014, 08:51 PM
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#99
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Rivet Master
1972 31' Sovereign
1975 31' Excella 500
Currently Looking...
Benton
, Arkansas
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 5,868
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Yep!
And it is a joy to be able to drive comfortably with one hand!
1/2 Ton 4WD Truck, 72 Sovereign Hensley Arrow
__________________
The fact that I am opinionated does not presuppose that I am wrong......
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12-20-2014, 10:20 PM
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#100
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Rivet Master
2007 22' International CCD
Corona
, California
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 9,180
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And to be able to hold a conversation with your passengers that is not punctuated with profanity. Priceless.
And no, as old and clumsy as I may seem, it's never taken more than 15 minutes at the outside to get the stinger into position to lock it. I guess I'm not fun to watch. Hoisting up the various bits of the Husky system we once used was a lot of work that I can avoid now. The PP stinger is the only heavy lift now.
Sent from my pocket Internet using Airstream Forums
__________________
Rich, KE4GNK/AE, Overkill Engineering Dept.
'The Silver HamShack' ('07 International 22FB CCD 75th Anniversary)
Multiple Yaesu Ham Radios inside and many antennae sprouting from roof, ProPride hitch, Prodigy P2 controller.
2012 shortbed CrewMax 4x4 Toyota Tacoma TV with more antennae on it.
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