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Old 03-25-2013, 07:05 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wncrasher
I think you are misreading the manual. Needing WD is a function of the tongue weight, not the total weight of the trailer.

My 2500hd is rated iok without WD to 1000lbs and then to 1500 lbs with WD. I've towed plenty of TT's with just the ball hitch to around 800 lbs without noticing any lightness on the front axle.

When you get heavy, you are usually getting long too, so you really have no choice but go with a good WD/anti-sway setup.

Center of gravity also plays a part - I have a car hauler trailer - about 24' long that sits low like an AS - tongue weight is around 1000lbs - I've not had need for sway control or WD on that one.

I wouldn't be foolish enough to advise any one to forgo a WD setup. But if you have a colossal truck, like a 3/4 or 1 ton diesel, then depending on your trailer, you may be able to do without it.
I certainly hope I'm not. The issue for me is moot as I opted to purchase the PP. However, attached are two snapshots of my user manual - if I am misreading something, please let me know. I've mentioned this fact before and would hate to be misrepresenting something I'm not understanding correctly! :gulp?:

Thanks!
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Old 03-25-2013, 07:42 PM   #16
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I am learning quite a lot reading the posts on this thread so far- (it makes me second guess my setup) here is a related question maybe some could help me with:
I noticed in my service manual that "Tru Track Sway Control" was an option installed on some of the models. It says if equipped there is a box under the front gaucho. Is that what appears to be a black plastic cover? And how successful was this system on the Airstreams?

Thanks!
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:08 PM   #17
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Those pages are poorly written. They are making an assumption of what the tongue weight would be - 10% to 15% of the total weight to determine if the WD is needed.

The manual for my truck is very different and presents the concept based on tongue weight, which is the correct way to describe it.

Think about it this way - the weight on the trailer's axles is 85% to 90% carried by them alone and is not transferred to your truck. The remaining weight is what you are trying to distribute to your trucks axles - hopefully fairly evenly, depending on your truck's configuration.

In no case would an 1800lb to 2500lb tongue weight for an 18000 lb trailers be acceptable on 2500/3500 truck even with WD. It would far exceed the hitch limits printed on the hardware. So that guideline in the manual is just garbage on the face of it.
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:25 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wncrasher
Those pages are poorly written. They are making an assumption of what the tongue weight would be - 10% to 15% of the total weight to determine if the WD is needed.

The manual for my truck is very different and presents the concept based on tongue weight, which is the correct way to describe it.

Think about it this way - the weight on the trailer's axles is 85% to 90% carried by them alone and is not transferred to your truck. The remaining weight is what you are trying to distribute to your trucks axles - hopefully fairly evenly, depending on your truck's configuration.

In no case would an 1800lb to 2500lb tongue weight for an 18000 lb trailers be acceptable on 2500/3500 truck even with WD. It would far exceed the hitch limits printed on the hardware. So that guideline in the manual is just garbage on the face of it.
Most user manuals are poorly written but I don't see that I've misinterpreted the meaning. Below are the Chevy and Airstream manuals on tongue weight. Yes, Chevy is assuming 10-15% of the trailer weight as tongue weight (which the AS manual agrees with). The AS manual says in no case can the TW >1000 lbs and the Chevy manual says the max TW for the hitch is 1500 lbs. To your point, their own instructions would exceed their stated 1500 lb hitch capacity...

What I'm concluding from all this is the AS TW max is within the capacity of the TV hitch and Chevy is saying that the 1000 lbs on the hitch can OPTIONALLY be distributed at the user's discretion (perhaps because the suspension can handle that weight with minimal lift on the front axle but that's just a guess on my part).

That would leave 2 distinct questions:

1) is my interpretation of the manual accurate?
2) do we believe the manual itself is accurate?
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Old 03-25-2013, 08:31 PM   #19
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Actually - the Duramax supplement says max trailer weight is 16.4k lbs (not 18,000) but the rest of the numbers apply...
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:37 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jared129 View Post
I am learning quite a lot reading the posts on this thread so far- (it makes me second guess my setup) here is a related question maybe some could help me with:
I noticed in my service manual that "Tru Track Sway Control" was an option installed on some of the models. It says if equipped there is a box under the front gaucho. Is that what appears to be a black plastic cover? And how successful was this system on the Airstreams?

Thanks!
(Before someone gets piXXed and points this out to me) I really ought to learn and do more research on the forums before posting silly questions that have been answered numerous times in years past! Sorry...
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Old 03-25-2013, 09:53 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by srpuywa View Post
Just to see what they stocked for WD and SC. Technician there recommended sway control only
I read this and took it that the people at CW didn't know what they were talking about - I appreciate, though, that the OP may not have seen it that way, nor be intending any criticism of CW.

As Inland Andy will tell you, though, it doesn't matter what truck you have or what Airstream you tow, properly set up WD is always going to improve your towing performance, and by association, your safety. Even on the biggest trucks, it's surely better to spread your TW load over both truck axles (and a little on the trailer axle(s)) than to have the whole lot hanging off the rear. For the relatively low cost of a WD system and some sway control/elimination you get a superior, and safer, tow; I don't understand why anyone would turn that down. But what do I know?
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Old 03-26-2013, 08:50 AM   #22
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The vehicles we use to tow are set up to understeer. Slightly. A WD hitch keeps the amount of understeer (if you will) to what the vehicle manufacturer designed. TW is just a static measurement. Going down the road that lever -- the length from hitch ball to TT axles -- can exert 10X as much force as the static representation. Thus, a WD hitch to spread that potential load over three axle sets.

Plus, more weight on the TT axles is a help in braking.

One can take this to a seemingly esoteric level (steering gradient), but the goal is to avoid a loss of control accident. By keeping the TV responses as close to the loaded, but unhitched feel (again, if you will) the driver is less likely to overcorrect. Which is a jackknife of either the TV and/or the TT. The higher the speed, etc.

The high TW/TT weights cited in the latest vehicle manufacturer data "appear" to be more the result of electronic doo-dads. TV anti-skid and ant-roll. Trailer stability (US-version) has always been with proper trailer design and TW percentage. Long wheelbase, heavy pickups used for commercial purposes are likely better off (as most of those users ignore TW restrictions in the first place).

TT owners ought to think through wind loads -- natural or man-made -- as well as COG (center-of-gravity) issues not really present for the other user type. In which case a WDH properly set up reduces risk.

Driver skill is a moot question. Doesn't apply in any single case as even the most highly skilled and experienced can fail to respond adequately and properly in adverse circumstances. Risk minimization is still the gold standard.

A WDH might not be warranted. Nor would disc brakes on the TT. But the combination is still state-of-the-art when best components/design are chosen.

Same for the TV. Bias tires and drum brakes will get the job done. If that suits, then good luck. If not, then . . . .

.
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Old 03-26-2013, 10:24 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrUKToad View Post
I read this and took it that the people at CW didn't know what they were talking about - I appreciate, though, that the OP may not have seen it that way, nor be intending any criticism of CW.

As Inland Andy will tell you, though, it doesn't matter what truck you have or what Airstream you tow, properly set up WD is always going to improve your towing performance, and by association, your safety. Even on the biggest trucks, it's surely better to spread your TW load over both truck axles (and a little on the trailer axle(s)) than to have the whole lot hanging off the rear. For the relatively low cost of a WD system and some sway control/elimination you get a superior, and safer, tow; I don't understand why anyone would turn that down. But what do I know?
Steve makes a very good point here. I agree with him completely.

Dan
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:00 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowmover View Post
TW is just a static measurement. Going down the road that lever -- the length from hitch ball to TT axles -- can exert 10X as much force as the static representation. Thus, a WD hitch to spread that potential load over three axle sets.

Plus, more weight on the TT axles is a help in braking.



.
Slowmover is absolutely correct here and he makes a very important point.

Now, the fact that the engineers have to design TV parts like axles, etc to the stresses caused by the dynamic loads, which are much higher than the static loads, gives a good margin of safety for specs like the rear axle rating as long as we are traveling on smooth roads or roads that minimize oscillations.

Dan
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Old 03-26-2013, 11:41 AM   #25
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The reason I mentioned the Chevy user manual's optional WDH perspective was in response to what I perceived as the OP's suggestion that the advice received was improper. If I've misunderstood the manual (sections posted earlier in this thread) I would apologize. If not, I think it's possible the advice given to the OP could have been accurate. Not disagreeing with slowmover's post, but I would also assume GM engineers know that as well. Why would they declare WD as optional in certain cases?

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Old 03-26-2013, 11:58 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
The reason I mentioned the Chevy user manual's optional WDH perspective was in response to what I perceived as the OP's suggestion that the advice received was improper. If I've misunderstood the manual (sections posted earlier in this thread) I would apologize. If not, I think it's possible the advice given to the OP could have been accurate. Not disagreeing with slowmover's post, but I would also assume GM engineers know that as well. Why would they declare WD as optional in certain cases?

Because the statement covers a wide variety of towed items. From boat trailers to backhoes with pintel type setups. Thus the reference to trailer MFRS recommendations.
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Old 03-26-2013, 12:20 PM   #27
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Most of these disagreements result from a lack of full information.
I don't mean to criticize the camping world staff but unless they weighed and measured your trailer as loaded for travel and investigated the specs of your particular tow vehicle, they are not in a position to provide accurate or informed advice.

Case in point, at a trailer show we were looking at a 30' SOB and asked the salesman if that model was available in shorter lengths since my truck would not tow a trailer that heavy. The salesman insisted that ANY "full sized" pickup truck, including my 2005 Tundra would tow ANY trailer they sold up to and including the 30', 10,000lb model we were standing in. I in formed him that my particular model Tundra (2005 SR5 4.7L V8 Double Cab 4x4 with tow package) was only rated to tow 6,800lbs. He told me I was must be mistaken.

Of course this was the same show where I was told Airstreams were not meant for people like me!

The point is you need to makesure the person giving advice has all the relevant facts.
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Old 03-26-2013, 03:43 PM   #28
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Of course this was the same show where I was told Airstreams were not meant for people like me!.
What kind of people are Airstreams made for then?
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