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nilesrob · 09-06-2012, 09:09 PM

Has anyone used a backup camera to make the hitching part a little easier, regardless of hitch manufacturer?

dznf0g · 09-06-2012, 09:11 PM

Yes, I do. Makes it really easy!

SteveH · 09-06-2012, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dznf0g

No, most of the weight is at the receiver....while hitched up. Weight on the ball through the coupler is a portion of the struts, a portion of the spring bars, all of the jacks, and all of the jack brackets. NONE of the head nor stinger weight is TW...it is receiver borne weight.

In my case, with the HAHA, of the total weight of all the components is 207.5#. Of that 99#s is the head (all receiver weight..zero TW while hitched), 41# is stinger weight (again zero TW, all receiver weight) That leaves 67.5# of weight for the Jacks, Jack brackets, spring bars and struts. I SWAG that 3/4 of that is TW and 1/4 is receiver weight, as the struts and spring bar weights are shared between TW and receiver load.

Well, yeah. After the trailer is hooked up and more importantly after the weight distribution bars are tightened properly, there is no weight at the ball....it's all transferred by leverage foward onto the tow vehicle, and rearward onto the trailer axles. However, that does not mean that the tongue weight went away, it means that it has been transferred. But, it still exists. If you don't believe it, either weigh it without being hooked up, or release the bars and see what happens.

Ag&Au · 09-06-2012, 10:11 PM

I think tongue weight should be added to the list of words that get replaced by ****** ******.

Ken

SteveH · 09-07-2012, 07:38 AM

Part of my point about the tounge weight, or mass if you will, is no matter where you move the weight with leverage of the weight distribution system, the inertia of moving that mass stays the same. Such as when the rig goes thru a severe dip in the road, the mass of the tongue weight, hitch and all, is still in the same place.

dznf0g · 09-07-2012, 07:54 AM

Steve, I am not arguing that at all. I am pointing out that when you figger' your weights to a particular spec which that company's engineer has specified, the weight of the HAHA hanging on the coupler is not part of tongue weight, it is part of the accounting for receiver weight, GVW of TV, GRAWR, GCWR. It hangs from the receiver and the tongue sits on it, irrespective of WD (other than the truck and receiver mfrs, allow 2 specs, one with WD, one without) Just becaise it is "stored" on the coupler, does not make it tongue weight.

SteveH · 09-07-2012, 08:27 AM

Engineers can "figger" all they want to, and I am one of them, although not a mechanical engineer, but the weight is what it is, and it is where it is, and all the calculating, and distributing in the world won't change it.

dznf0g · 09-07-2012, 08:28 AM

"round and round the mulberry bush...." We have a failure to communicate!

SteveH · 09-07-2012, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dznf0g

"round and round the mulberry bush...." We have a failure to communicate!

Indeed.

Ag&Au · 09-07-2012, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dznf0g

"round and round the mulberry bush...." We have a failure to communicate!

Let's change the discussion.

I believe it should be the cobbler's bench not the mulberry bush in this case. So who is the monkey and who is the weasel?

Ken

dznf0g · 09-07-2012, 09:00 AM

I have been both, at one time or another! You pick.

Mulberry bush...in the midwest, although I've heard others say cobler bench. (it needs 4 sylables)

Jammer · 09-07-2012, 09:49 AM

I think that dznf0g is correct that, when contemplating the maximum tongue weight specification for the trailer, it's appropriate to exclude the weight of any hitch components that aren't supported by the coupler.

On the other hand, when contemplating the maximum tongue weight for the tow vehicle, I believe that the most reasonable approach is to include the weight of any components supported by the receiver, to the extent that they exceed the weight of the SAE J684-98 reference components around which the receiver is designed.

This is the weight you would measure with the conventional tongue weight measuring technique of subtracting the scale weight of the tow vehicle axles without the trailer attached from the scale weight of the tow vehicle axles with the trailer attached and the WD dialed in.

The receiver should be derated by the ratio of the standard receiver pin-to-ball distance to the receiver pin-to-ball distance of the hitching system in use, to reflect the increased dynamic torsional load on the receiver assembly, as well as the increased torsional load posed by the WD bars.

Ag&Au · 09-07-2012, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dznf0g

I have been both, at one time or another! You pick.

Mulberry bush...in the midwest, although I've heard others say cobler bench. (it needs 4 sylables)

By the times things filter inland, I think they get messed up.

Mulberry Bush
Here we go round the mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush,
The mulberry bush.
Here we go round the mulberry bush
So early in the morning.

Cobblers Bench
'Round and 'round the cobbler's bench
The monkey chased the weasel,
The monkey thought 'twas all in fun
Pop! Goes the weasel.

I consider myself an expert, because we have both a bench and a mulberry bush in our back yard. So I've Had a chance to observe what happens around them.

Ken

Sean Woodruff · 09-07-2012, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jammer

Yes, a few of them broke and there was a recall. Reese uses the same hitch head for their basic WD hitches, also, as I understand it, and there are hundreds of thousands of them on the road.

I believe ProPride has stated that there are about 3,000 of their hitches in use. There has been one weld failure. There has been no recall. I like the odds on Reese much better.

Over 5000 just to be clear. I guarantee that the China made Reese hitch bar is not as strong as the ProPride hitch bar.

As for the NHTSA findings, I only have one question. How can they tell which came first? The chicken or the egg? Did any components fail after the sway or did the failure cause the accident?

Sean Woodruff · 09-07-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jammer

The receiver should be derated by the ratio of the standard receiver pin-to-ball distance to the receiver pin-to-ball distance of the hitching system in use, to reflect the increased dynamic torsional load on the receiver assembly, as well as the increased torsional load posed by the WD bars.

Then it should also be derated for the leveraged yaw forces that are applied to the receiver when the effective pivot point is behind the receiver.

Sean Woodruff · 09-07-2012, 11:04 AM

HENSLY ARROW UNHITCHING TIP:

How to know if the weight is off the spring bars so that you can pull out of the hitch.

Look at the spring bar U-Bracket that connects the jack to the end of the spring bar.

The U-bracket has a SLOT that is used for the clevis pin to connect to the jack.

When the head of that clevis pin is in the CENTER of the slot, there is no weight on the spring bar. At the top of the slot and it is pulling UP on the bar. At the bottom of the slot it is pushing DOWN on the bar. You want the pin at the mid-point of the slot.

If you raise or lower your tongue jack after getting the pin to the mid-point of the slot you ALWAYS have to check the pin again.

The JACKS are ALWAYS the last adjustment when unhitching. If you ever raise or lower the tongue jack always go back and check the jacks.

Finally, HITCHING is a function of how you previously UNHITCHED. If the hitch bar easily comes out of the hitch, because you've followed the above suggestion, it will easily insert into the hitch if you leave the hitch sitting in the unhitched position.

Clear as mud, right?

Or, you could get a hitch with a redesigned hitch box, greater angles, and a shorter insertion. I've had 4 or 5 calls about hitching in 5+ years. <wink>

HighFlying · 09-07-2012, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nilesrob

Has anyone used a backup camera to make the hitching part a little easier, regardless of hitch manufacturer?

Yes to the question about using a backup camera to making hitching easier. I have a propride hitch and a 2011 Chevy with a backup camera, I also put white reflective tape on the top of my stinger, and put red reflective tape around the opening on the receiver on the hitch. The backup lights on the truck really makes the tape stand out and when i backup alignment is spot on every time with the only issue of getting the trailer height to the correct height so the stinger will slide in. I can be hitched up and rolling in about 3 minutes.

Jammer · 09-07-2012, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff

Then it should also be derated for the leveraged yaw forces that are applied to the receiver when the effective pivot point is behind the receiver.

Do you believe that the yaw forces typically exceed the dynamic load from bumps? If so, why?

Are hitch receivers designed without these forces in mind?

About what share of the many receivers that show signs of weld failure, bending, or fatigue later in their life show failures that are characteristic of yaw forces?

Do you believe that this derating should also apply to 4-bar hitch designs (Hensley, ProPride) to cover yaw angles large enough that the virtual pivot point moves rear of the typical ball location on other types of hitches? Why or why not?

Sean Woodruff · 09-07-2012, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jammer

Do you believe that the yaw forces typically exceed the dynamic load from bumps? If so, why?

Are hitch receivers designed without these forces in mind?

About what share of the many receivers that show signs of weld failure, bending, or fatigue later in their life show failures that are characteristic of yaw forces?

Do you believe that this derating should also apply to 4-bar hitch designs (Hensley, ProPride) to cover yaw angles large enough that the virtual pivot point moves rear of the typical ball location on other types of hitches? Why or why not?

Yes, the total weight of the trailer applied at a distance behind the receiver is greater than the tongue weight in a vertical direction. A trailer can turn an entire tow vehicle (a.k.a. - jackknife).

Not sure about the total failures. I haven't see a lot of total failures of receivers. I've seen receivers, and hitches for that matter, that are 25 years old that are still in use.

I don't think there are any yaw forces when a virtual pivot point is rearward of the typical ball location. The trailer would have to be at quite an angle in relation to the tow vehicle (I haven't calculated it) for that to happen. For it to be at that angle the speed of the combination would have to be extremely low and the trailer would settle.

overlander63 · 09-07-2012, 09:03 PM

Looks like we're trying to change the weight of the elephant by getting him to stand on one foot again.

When Airstream specs 1000# tongue weight, that is the weight on the ball. NOT the ball itself, or anything from the ball forward.
When Reese (just to pick a random name) specs 1000# tongue weight for the receiver, everything is counted, tounge weight, hitch head, ball, sway bars, even the safety chains. Airstream doesn't care about how much is ahead of the ball, the receiver and tow vehicle manufacturers do.
So, if the weight on the ball is less than spec'ed by Airstream, you are good. If the weight of everything is less than spec'ed by the tow vehicle and receiver manufacturer, you are also good. If either spec is exceeded, chamges will have to be made to whatever part is over, receiver or tonge weight.