Friction sway control...worthwhile?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by out of sight

So your answer is that I have to have a European trailer and I can't go faster than 48 mph. But if I buy a hitch from you then I can go 87 mph with my US made Airstream and my Tuscaloosa built Mercedes.

No, that isn't correct. Please read it again. If you have a trailer built to a European standard in terms of where the component weights are positioned relative to the CoG, it doesn't matter where you buy it from. You can't likely bring it from Europe because it will come with surge brakes, which are not generally legal at these typical trailer weights, depending on where you register it. 80 km/hr is 50 mph. And while your Mercedes could have been built anywhere, it was designed in Germany. Mercedes is advertising lots of job vacancies in Tuscaloosa, ranging from cafeteria works, to forklift operator, to valet drivers. Even a quality engineer. No design engineers. And sorry, but I can't sell you a hitch. And even if I could, I would not advise you to tow at 87 mph with it.

You've got it wrong on so many levels.

[out of sight]

You are evading the point. Can I safely tow a 7200 lb load with an 8% tongue load with my Mercedes without a weight distribution and sway control hitch at US highway speeds or not?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by out of sight

You are evading the point. Can I safely tow a 7200 lb load with an 8% tongue load with my Mercedes without a weight distribution and sway control hitch at US highway speeds or not?

Not according to Mercedes, even though you seem to think they told you so. And I wouldn't do it, as I don't consider it safe. To be convinced it was safe, I would want to see your full scale tickets for the setup, understand the axle ratings, and know if I was dealing with an experienced driver or an inexperienced one.

What I don't understand is your focus on what Mercedes tell you is safe. You told us that you use WD equipment with your Mercedes car, so that seems settled. However with your Ram truck, you apparently don't, even though Ram tells you to do so, and specifically advises 50% front axle load restoration for a 2018 2500, which seems to be what you have.

Why are you focusing on the Mercedes manual when the issue appears to be with your heavier truck?

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by jcl

Not according to Mercedes, even though you seem to think they told you so. And I wouldn't do it, as I don't consider it safe. To be convinced it was safe, I would want to see your full scale tickets for the setup, understand the axle ratings, and know if I was dealing with an experienced driver or an inexperienced one.

What I don't understand is your focus on what Mercedes tell you is safe. You told us that you use WD equipment with your Mercedes car, so that seems settled. However with your Ram truck, you apparently don't, even though Ram tells you to do so, and specifically advises 50% front axle load restoration for a 2018 2500, which seems to be what you have.

Why are you focusing on the Mercedes manual when the issue appears to be with your heavier truck?

I consider it totally safe to drive the MB without a w/d hitch as long as I stay within the specified parameters. I've tried it. Have you ever tried towing without a w/d hitch?

I gave you the scale weights but you didn't believe them, so what's the point?

There is no issue for my heavier truck. The Airstream doesn't even weigh it down by an inch. It would be preposterous to say it needs a w/d hitch. By the way, you're misreading the RAM manual which is for 1/2, 3/4 and 1 ton trucks together.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by out of sight

I consider it totally safe to drive the MB without a w/d hitch as long as I stay within the specified parameters. I've tried it. Have you ever tried towing without a w/d hitch?

I gave you the scale weights but you didn't believe them, so what's the point?

There is no issue for my heavier truck. The Airstream doesn't even weigh it down by an inch. It would be preposterous to say it needs a w/d hitch. By the way, you're misreading the RAM manual which is for 1/2, 3/4 and 1 ton trucks together.

Yes, I have towed a lot without WD. It isn't always possible to use it. I drove a tow truck years back, and often moved trailers (boat, cargo, travel). I also towed disabled vehicles which by definition don't have functional brakes. One has to adapt to the circumstances. With the Expedition, I didn't use WD, but I wasn't towing heavy loads at the time, nothing over 5000 lbs.

The only scale weights I saw posted were for your unloaded Ram 2500. Nothing loaded, nothing hitched, and nothing for the Mercedes. Perhaps you could point me to them if you posted them already.

The 2018 Ram manual I am looking at covers 1500/2500/3500 models. I quoted from the 2500/3500 section for you. It has specific notes on using WD equipment with 2500 and 3500 models. Perhaps read it again. Your not knowing that Ram recommends you use WD equipment with your trailer may be the root of the issue here.

edit: I went back and looked at the 1500 section in the Ram manual to see if it is any different. It is. They call for 1/3 FALR on a 1500, instead of 1/2. So Ram wants more WD cranked in on their heavier trucks, as a percentage of tongue weight. I found that interesting.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by jcl

Not according to Mercedes, even though you seem to think they told you so. And I wouldn't do it, as I don't consider it safe. To be convinced it was safe, I would want to see your full scale tickets for the setup, understand the axle ratings, and know if I was dealing with an experienced driver or an inexperienced one.

What I don't understand is your focus on what Mercedes tell you is safe. You told us that you use WD equipment with your Mercedes car, so that seems settled. However with your Ram truck, you apparently don't, even though Ram tells you to do so, and specifically advises 50% front axle load restoration for a 2018 2500, which seems to be what you have.

Why are you focusing on the Mercedes manual when the issue appears to be with your heavier truck?

Originally Posted by jcl

Yes, I have towed a lot without WD. It isn't always possible to use it. I drove a tow truck years back, and often moved trailers (boat, cargo, travel). I also towed disabled vehicles which by definition don't have functional brakes. One has to adapt to the circumstances. With the Expedition, I didn't use WD, but I wasn't towing heavy loads at the time, nothing over 5000 lbs.

The only scale weights I saw posted were for your unloaded Ram 2500. Nothing loaded, nothing hitched, and nothing for the Mercedes. Perhaps you could point me to them if you posted them already.

The 2018 Ram manual I am looking at covers 1500/2500/3500 models. I quoted from the 2500/3500 section for you. It has specific notes on using WD equipment with 2500 and 3500 models. Perhaps read it again. Your not knowing that Ram recommends you use WD equipment with your trailer may be the root of the issue here.

edit: I went back and looked at the 1500 section in the Ram manual to see if it is any different. It is. They call for 1/3 FALR on a 1500, instead of 1/2. So Ram wants more WD cranked in on their heavier trucks, as a percentage of tongue weight. I found that interesting.

Read the section that says w/d is recommended for heavy loads. An Airstream is a light load.

You really need to re-think the idea that you should return weight to the front axle despite the fact that there is already too much weight there. You're too fixated on the hitch itself and you're losing perspective. You're looking for every reason to prove a weight distribution hitch is necessary and not thinking about the fact that it's useless at best for the loads we're talking about. I think I'll coin a name for this. How about hitch fixation? You're not the only person here to exhibit the symptoms. Not an insult, I hope. I'm just trying to understand the disorder.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Read the section that says w/d is recommended for heavy loads. An Airstream is a light load.

You really need to re-think the idea that you should return weight to the front axle despite the fact that there is already too much weight there. You're too fixated on the hitch itself and you're losing perspective. You're looking for every reason to prove a weight distribution hitch is necessary and not thinking about the fact that it's useless at best for the loads we're talking about. I think I'll coin a name for this. How about hitch fixation? You're not the only person here to exhibit the symptoms. Not an insult, I hope. I'm just trying to understand the disorder.

Actually,it says recommended for heavier tongue weights. In the range of tongue weights possible, where does a tongue weight approaching 1000 lbs sit on the (relative) scale? I suggest it is a heavy tongue weight relative to what is possible. SAE defines four classes of hitch, up to Class IV. 1000 lbs tongue weight is in fact the upper rated limit of the heaviest class hitch that they define. So you are heavy, according to the experts. (Yes, some hitch manufacturers sell what they call class V hitches, but SAE doesn't recognize that class, it is a marketing spiel)

But we don't have to interpret the word "heavy" ourselves. No need to rely on the general, when the manual includes the specific. 1/2 FALR. Very specific.

Note also that it refers to heavy tongue weights, not heavy trailers. An Airstream might be a light load compared to the towing capacity of the truck, if for example you used a gooseneck hitch, but it doesn't have a light tongue weight.

I suspect you are considering your tongue weight to be light compared to the load capacity of the pickup box. It may be. But the load isn't in the pickup box, it is hung out behind the rear bumper. Forget the trailer for a moment. Pretend you are going to move a 1000 lb cube in your truck. You have to place that load somewhere. You can decide where, longitudinally. Do you choose to (a) put it somewhere between the truck axles, or (b) put it out on the tailgate (leaving aside the obvious tailgate strength issues). Any responsible driver would choose (a). It is how you load a truck. You are effectively opting for (b), suggesting that the front axle is so heavy that lightening it helps. WD equipment effectively puts the virtual load closer to the rear axle. Not between the axles, but if you have 1 m of rear overhang, 50% FALR with WD equipment means you are effectively putting the 1000 lb load about halfway towards the rear axle.

The manual also says why they recommend WD and sway control equipment.

Originally Posted by RAM 2500 Owners Manual 2018

When used in accordance with the manufacturer’s directions, it provides for a more level ride, offering more consistent steering and brake control, thereby enhancing towing safety. The addition of a friction/hydraulic sway control also dampens sway caused by traffic and crosswinds and contributes positively to tow vehicle and trailer stability.

So, do you think the manufacturer of your truck also has this "disorder" you invented?

And note that most of the above diversion is about WD. The thread was actually started to discuss friction sway control devices.

Here is what I see. You based your approach on a misreading of your owner's manual. When that was pointed out to you, you decided to invent a medical disorder to distract. This isn't the only manual you misread. You also claimed that Mercedes didn't allow WD equipment, and that was shown to be false as well.

Pretty soon you are going to have to fall back to "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"

[Kanusport]

Yes you can tow with 7% tongue weight and no WDH. At least with an f150 and 22 sport.

I did it in my 2018 f150 towing my 22 sport home from the dealer. I even posted up cat scale photos showing my axle weights front and back on the truck within 100 lbs of each other and still took a beating from some WDH folks.

I was also called a troll, which is weird, because I brought this up in another thread. I ended up telling that guy to go pound sand.

It’s ok to disagree people.

[Dan and Liz]

After the 108 posts above, I still say friction sway control is probably a good idea.

[PKI]

Originally Posted by Kanusport

Yes you can tow with 7% tongue weight and no WDH. At least with an f150 and 22 sport. -- snip --.

How were you able to manage to end up with a 7% tongue weight? As delivered the Sport 22 is 422/3634 and that is close to 12% tongue weight. Pat

[Philip Jones]

We use our friction bars whenever we leave the city. In the city, where I am travelling only up to 70 km/hr (and usually only 50-60) I never bother because this is usually just driving the trailer back and forth to storage.

I have definitely noticed the difference on the highway when I had the bars on but forgotten to tighten them up (we usually loosen them in the city because they make a bit of a moaning sound). Not a good feeling!

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by Kanusport

Yes you can tow with 7% tongue weight and no WDH. At least with an f150 and 22 sport.

I did it in my 2018 f150 towing my 22 sport home from the dealer. I even posted up cat scale photos showing my axle weights front and back on the truck within 100 lbs of each other and still took a beating from some WDH folks.

I was also called a troll, which is weird, because I brought this up in another thread. I ended up telling that guy to go pound sand.

It’s ok to disagree people.

Yes, the hitch people are really strange. All they think about all day is how to tweek their hitches. When you point out something that doesn't fit their view they call you names insult you. You are right to tell them to pound sand.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by jcl

Actually,it says recommended for heavier tongue weights. In the range of tongue weights possible, where does a tongue weight approaching 1000 lbs sit on the (relative) scale? I suggest it is a heavy tongue weight relative to what is possible. SAE defines four classes of hitch, up to Class IV. 1000 lbs tongue weight is in fact the upper rated limit of the heaviest class hitch that they define. So you are heavy, according to the experts. (Yes, some hitch manufacturers sell what they call class V hitches, but SAE doesn't recognize that class, it is a marketing spiel)

But we don't have to interpret the word "heavy" ourselves. No need to rely on the general, when the manual includes the specific. 1/2 FALR. Very specific.

Note also that it refers to heavy tongue weights, not heavy trailers. An Airstream might be a light load compared to the towing capacity of the truck, if for example you used a gooseneck hitch, but it doesn't have a light tongue weight.

I suspect you are considering your tongue weight to be light compared to the load capacity of the pickup box. It may be. But the load isn't in the pickup box, it is hung out behind the rear bumper. Forget the trailer for a moment. Pretend you are going to move a 1000 lb cube in your truck. You have to place that load somewhere. You can decide where, longitudinally. Do you choose to (a) put it somewhere between the truck axles, or (b) put it out on the tailgate (leaving aside the obvious tailgate strength issues). Any responsible driver would choose (a). It is how you load a truck. You are effectively opting for (b), suggesting that the front axle is so heavy that lightening it helps. WD equipment effectively puts the virtual load closer to the rear axle. Not between the axles, but if you have 1 m of rear overhang, 50% FALR with WD equipment means you are effectively putting the 1000 lb load about halfway towards the rear axle.

The manual also says why they recommend WD and sway control equipment.



So, do you think the manufacturer of your truck also has this "disorder" you invented?

And note that most of the above diversion is about WD. The thread was actually started to discuss friction sway control devices.

Here is what I see. You based your approach on a misreading of your owner's manual. When that was pointed out to you, you decided to invent a medical disorder to distract. This isn't the only manual you misread. You also claimed that Mercedes didn't allow WD equipment, and that was shown to be false as well.

Pretty soon you are going to have to fall back to "don't confuse me with facts, my mind is made up"

Go read the manual again. It allows for a tongue of 1800 lbs. An Airstream with 900 would be a light load.

As for the Mercedes manual you also need to read that again. Not only does it limit the vertical load on the hitch receiver to 575 lbs but it also limits the distance from the hitch pin to the ball to 7.5". So, you can't use a w/d hitch.

After further medical research into the phenomenon of hitch fixation I have discovered that it is really a version of OCPD (obsessive compulsive personality disorder). I have therefore renamed the disease to OCHD (obsessive compulsive hitch disorder).

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by Philip Jones

We use our friction bars whenever we leave the city. In the city, where I am travelling only up to 70 km/hr (and usually only 50-60) I never bother because this is usually just driving the trailer back and forth to storage.

I have definitely noticed the difference on the highway when I had the bars on but forgotten to tighten them up (we usually loosen them in the city because they make a bit of a moaning sound). Not a good feeling!

Yes, you will notice a difference when you get on the highway without frictions bars. The trailer will wiggle a little when it gets a blast of wind. While it can be uncomfortable it is normal and not dangerous. Uncontrolled trailer sway is a different matter. It results from a poorly loaded trailer with too much weight behind the rear axle and it comes on when you reach a certain speed. It is dangerous and I wouldn't want to rely on any friction device to mask the effects of poor trailer loading.

Fortunately many newer vehicles have ESC, electronic stability control, which will detect dangerous sway. It will then apply the brakes on one side or the other until the speed is reduced to below the critical speed. Then you need to pull over and re-arrange your load.

Newer Airstream trailers are difficult to mis-load, but it can be done. It's a bigger problem for people who tow large Boston Whalers with 4 outboard motors hanging off the back. Flatbed trailers carrying tractors or construction equipment are also often loaded poorly with too much weight behind the rear axle.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Philip Jones

We use our friction bars whenever we leave the city. In the city, where I am travelling only up to 70 km/hr (and usually only 50-60) I never bother because this is usually just driving the trailer back and forth to storage.

I have definitely noticed the difference on the highway when I had the bars on but forgotten to tighten them up (we usually loosen them in the city because they make a bit of a moaning sound). Not a good feeling!

If you read enough about the difference in WDH with anti-sway vs the "friction" type devices, you will see the WDH is a better, more consistent solution. The friction types rely on "human" judgment for the tension which can slip in wet weather. I used on my Casita, but would never consider the friction type on a larger AS. I am not sure why a person would chance not using a WDH-- just to save money?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Go read the manual again. It allows for a tongue of 1800 lbs. An Airstream with 900 would be a light load.

Well, if you want to focus on the manual, why are you again avoiding the direct recommendation in the manual, which despite your claim that it only applies to the 1500, is listed as a Ram recommendation for 2500 and 3500 models. As previously posted:

Originally Posted by jcl

...
But we don't have to interpret the word "heavy" ourselves. No need to rely on the general, when the manual includes the specific. 1/2 FALR. Very specific.

Back to the Mercedes.

Originally Posted by out of sight

As for the Mercedes manual you also need to read that again. …..it also limits the distance from the hitch pin to the ball to 7.5". So, you can't use a w/d hitch.

Already discussed. As you acknowledged earlier, Mercedes doesn't consider the use of WD equipment. They are completely silent on the matter. They have page after page of towing instructions in the manual specific to your vehicle, but didn't think it was important to mention WD equipment as a concern. You are trying to use a hitch ball location reference to justify your position that they don't permit WD equipment. They are referring to hitch ball offset for a weight carrying hitch, the only one they reference in their manual, as you acknowledged.

Think about why that instruction is there. They are very clear in their manual on their concern over rear axle loads. Just as an example, they don't want to see things like luggage carriers or bike racks installed with supplementary hitch balls behind them, essentially producing very long shank extensions. That is a very understandable concern, because those extensions further stress the rear axle. But a WD hitch doesn't apply an additional downward bending moment when the bars are connected. So your concern is misguided. Instead of blindly following the manual, understand the reasons for the instructions. That will produce a safer result.

My SUV also has restrictions on hitch ball offset for a load carrying hitch (not just extension, but also drop). Makes sense. But the manufacturer (not Mercedes) also discusses WD equipment, and doesn't restrict its use, despite the fact that it doesn't fit within the weight carrying ball dimensions, presumably because they understand the above.

You also continue to focus on your Mercedes manual as if it is gospel, while ignoring your Ram manual. Seems inconsistent.

All this for WD equipment. Your Ram manual also recommends the use of sway control devices, which, after all, is the topic of the thread.

Originally Posted by Originally Posted by RAM 2500 Owners Manual 2018

When used in accordance with the manufacturer’s directions, it provides for a more level ride, offering more consistent steering and brake control, thereby enhancing towing safety. The addition of a friction/hydraulic sway control also dampens sway caused by traffic and crosswinds and contributes positively to tow vehicle and trailer stability.

[gypsydad]

Originally Posted by Philip Jones

We use our friction bars whenever we leave the city. In the city, where I am travelling only up to 70 km/hr (and usually only 50-60) I never bother because this is usually just driving the trailer back and forth to storage.

I have definitely noticed the difference on the highway when I had the bars on but forgotten to tighten them up (we usually loosen them in the city because they make a bit of a moaning sound). Not a good feeling!

Not to beat a dead horse, and no disrespect to you intended, but why aren't you using a WDH with a 27'?? I would not even entertain the comments by others here about "shifting the load around" in your TT or TV compensates for not using a WDH.

The video I posted earlier also address the reason a WDH is important with a TT like an AS vs just pulling a flatbed trailer... there is a brief comment on the issues with friction bar type also vs WDH.. Watching a wind related roll over TT rig like some that are posted on YouTube could result in a larger wreck involving others is a real threat when towing an AS...I've seen many big rigs on their sides between TX and MT over the years from wind, and a few travel trailers also due to wind or sway from a manuver...to me, it's a no brainer to use a WDH and any other "tools" to help make my journey and yours safer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWJ4Iy6ek24

[out of sight]

[QUOTE=jcl;2229652
Think about why that instruction is there. They are very clear in their manual on their concern over rear axle loads. Just as an example, they don't want to see things like luggage carriers or bike racks installed with supplementary hitch balls behind them, essentially producing very long shank extensions. That is a very understandable concern, because those extensions further stress the rear axle. But a WD hitch doesn't apply an additional downward bending moment when the bars are connected. So your concern is misguided. Instead of blindly following the manual, understand the reasons for the instructions. That will produce a safer result.[/QUOTE]

It appears you have no clue how a w/d hitch works. The upward load, not the downward load, is the problem. The spring bars apply an upward bending moment to the hitch receiver. A 600 lb force applied 2 1/2' away will create a moment of 1500 ft-lbs, much more than the normal downward load when not using the w/d hitch. But that's not the whole story. That upward load could easily double when the rig travels over a bumpy road. It could, and it has, caused crumpling of the unibody on some vehicles.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by out of sight

It appears you have no clue how a w/d hitch works. The upward load, not the downward load, is the problem. The spring bars apply an upward bending moment to the hitch receiver. A 600 lb force applied 2 1/2' away will create a moment of 1500 ft-lbs, much more than the normal downward load when not using the w/d hitch. But that's not the whole story. That upward load could easily double when the rig travels over a bumpy road. It could, and it has, caused crumpling of the unibody on some vehicles.

The reference you included isn’t about a WD hitch. It is about a weight carrying hitch. With downward loads. A weight carrying hitch is the only one referenced in your owner’s manual. As you agreed, Mercedes doesn’t reference WD equipment.

You are attempting to divert. Some of us understand perfectly well how WD works.

Crumpling? Seriously? Are you concerned about your Ram pickup crumpling? You shouldn’t be. It isn’t a valid reason not to use WD equipment.

[out of sight]

Originally Posted by jcl

The video I posted earlier also address the reason a WDH is important with a TT like an AS vs just pulling a flatbed trailer... there is a brief comment on the issues with friction bar type also vs WDH.. Watching a wind related roll over TT rig like some that are posted on YouTube could result in a larger wreck involving others is a real threat when towing an AS...I've seen many big rigs on their sides between TX and MT over the years from wind, and a few travel trailers also due to wind or sway from a manuver...to me, it's a no brainer to use a WDH and any other "tools" to help make my journey and yours safer!

Sway control and weight distribution are completely different concepts, although some hitches combine the two together. If you want to understand trailer sway then you should really start with the U-Haul sway demonstration video on YouTube.