Does hitch add tongue weight

[dkottum]

Am at my limit for tongue weight on my 06 Tundra, but want to install a ProPride hitch.

Does the hitch add tongue weight, when determining the trailer tongue weight, or does the hitch add to the payload of the truck?

This has been referenced here before like everything else, but I can't find the answer.

[Jammer]

Realistically, it adds to the tongue weight, because it adds to the stress on the hitch components.

You can get a Valley hitch that will support a tongue weight of 1000 pounds. They're cheap and easy to install.

Trailer Hitch Instructions For DrawTite, Reese, Hidden Hitch & More - etrailer.com

[CanoeStream]

Any non-OEM equipment on your truck subtracts from its payload. Specs for a vehicle originally sold without a Class III/IV receiver must have the weight of the receiver added to loading on the vehicle. The hitch bar and ball are added load. The WD/antisway gear on the A-frame almost all is carried at the hitch. Ditto LP in the tanks. So either way, these loads do translate into extra weight on the TV.

I've done the figuring tow loads by brute numbers. This can get all of us into using a lot of rigid suspension 3/4 ton trucks. There are proponents for tuning your rig and reviewing the safe history of large family cars towing RVs back in our parents' days. Looking for answers won't be a short quest. You could start looking for posts by Andrew T or bryanl (related links: 1 & 2) in any hitch subforum thread. I remember lewster commenting on all the family-car-towed RVs he witnessed arriving safely in FL with Canadian plates.

[Al - K4GLU]

Why would you want a ProPride hitch for a 20' Safari - got a lot of money you want to waste? This is gross overkill for that size trailer. Get a Reese Dual Cam Anti-sway hitch with 600 lb bars - or ,maybe even 400 if they make'em. All you will need.

[dkottum]

Well that's it in a nutshell, if it all comes to numbers Bob (Go Twins!).

There is an interesting article in the Spring "Airstream Life" by Can-Am's Andy Thomson about the role of t.v. height, suspension, wheels and tires, t.v. overhang and receiver length, as well as some guidance on w.d. bars. Makes quite a case for his smaller vehicle rigs.

But we have got the Tundra, plenty of payload, at tongue load limit, and we like it. Can we use the ProPride without modification?

[dkottum]

Hi Al - '

It's because I just talked to the guy who left here in Tucson last year with his 30' Airstream, Reese dual cam, and 3/4 ton diesel Ford and very strong side wind started sway he could not correct. It all rolled three times.

It's the extreme condition that we may get into.

[markdoane]

Don't consider the weight of the Propride as part of the tongue weight. The tongue weight doesn't include anything foward of the ball.

Tongue weight is a number that represents where the center of trailer mass is located. Location of the center of mass is what determines the speed at which trailer oscillation will become uncontrollable. So don't adjust your trailer tongue weight to compensate for the weight of the hitch.

The weight of the hitch gets assigned 100% to the tow vehicle payload, like Bob says.

[CanoeStream]

Originally Posted by dkottum

There is an interesting article in the Spring "Airstream Life" by Can-Am's Andy Thomson about the role of t.v. height, suspension, wheels and tires, t.v. overhang and receiver length, as well as some guidance on w.d. bars. Makes quite a case for his smaller vehicle rigs.

That's the Andrew T cited in my post.

Go Gophers! <trash talk deleted by mod staff> Xavier!!

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by markdoane

The weight of the hitch gets assigned 100% to the tow vehicle payload, like Bob says.

Hi, I understand the fact that the hitch would be considered part of the payload, not tongue weight, but it is the total weight of the tongue and the hitch resting on the tow vehicle's receiver. I think this factor could over load the capacity of the receiver. My receiver weight limits are not the same as my tow vehicle's tow rateing. I also believe that a Ha Ha or P P would put me over my receiver's limits.

Trailer tow rating.............8,900 lbs

On receiver label:

Max gross trailer weight.________________________ Max tongue weight.

Weight distributing...........8,850 lbs_________________________885 lbs

Weight carrying...............5,000 lbs_________________________500 lbs

[Sean Woodruff]

Originally Posted by Al - K4GLU

Why would you want a ProPride hitch for a 20' Safari - got a lot of money you want to waste? This is gross overkill for that size trailer. Get a Reese Dual Cam Anti-sway hitch with 600 lb bars - or ,maybe even 400 if they make'em. All you will need.

I have a few questions, if you don't mind.

May I ask how you know it is overkill? And, what exactly is OVERkill? Isn't something, trailer sway in this case, just KILLED? How can it be more than killed? Ever towed a ProPride equipped trailer?

A Reese Dual-Cam, as noted in the post above, IS an example of UNDERkill.

Yes, my tonality is sarcastic here.

I take offense to people that don't know what they are talking about stating that I spend my life manufacturing and selling a product to people that don't need it. That is the message you send when you come off with your ignorant, arrogant statement, "got a lot of money you want to waste?"

If that isn't your intention then I'd like to suggest you check your premises.

[85MH325]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Hi Al - '

It's because I just talked to the guy who left here in Tucson last year with his 30' Airstream, Reese dual cam, and 3/4 ton diesel Ford and very strong side wind started sway he could not correct. It all rolled three times.

It's the extreme condition that we may get into.

So you're making some significant assumptions... foremost that a different hitch would have changed the outcome; then that the driver was competent; that the Reese was set up properly; that the trailer was loaded properly; and that all the OTHER equipment (tires, shocks, axles etc.) were performing properly.

All trailers will exhibit sway at speed. The key is to make the speed at which onset occurs higher than you'll ever drive. The extreme conditions don't cause sway. An unbalanced weight distribution issue will, and if that occurs with some other extreme condition, it'll cause you to crash regardless of the hitch. If the trailer can exhibit enough sideways force on the rear axle of the tow vehicle you lose control.

All of the sway-control hitches on the market will do their job if set up properly, and I'm not convinced that the expensive hitches do anything but mask the other causes of sway. The Hensley and Pro Pride are excellent hitches and perform as advertised, but they cost four times that of the Dual Cam or Equal-i-zer; both of which have hundreds of thousands of successful tow miles without incident.

I had issues with my 34' tri-axle and my Excursion with a Reese Dual Cam. The tri-axle is reputed to be one of the most stable trailers on the road, yet I had a scary case of "the wiggles" when being passed by trucks with the Excursion. I attributed it to the hitch, hitch shank length... a whole variety of things, until I figured out it was the spring stack on the Excursion that was unstable, causing rear-axle steering. Once I took care of that AND set my Dual-Cam up properly, AND carried 80psi in the tires, it tracked like it was on rails.

I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from buying the hitch that catches their fancy; merely pointing out that the hitch is NOT a panacea for all towing ills. If you're having issues, you need to track them down one at a time and correct them, and THEN add sway control... not use the sway control to try to cover up for other towing issues. That's merely masking the problems until the problem becomes severe enough to overcome what the hitch is capable of masking... and then you're in trouble... probably exactly what happened to the guy you spoke with. There are literally thousands of Ford F250s out there successfully towing all sizes of trailers with a dual-cam. I'd be curious to find out exactly what he didn't know about his rig in particular.

Roger

[2airishuman]

the "does it count against tongue..."

has been asked and answered.

and again in this thread.

but here's the real issue...

Originally Posted by dkottum

Am at my limit for tongue weight on my 06 Tundra...

u need to rethink this AND explain exactly what u mean...

since there is no "tongue weight" limit for a tundra or any other truck.

PAYLOAD limit...yes

RECEIVER limit...yes (with or without w/d since most have 2 ratings)

if it's the receiver that's maxed out move UP in class or get the weld'n sticks and melter thing out...

but tongue limit?

wazzzz dat?

cheers
2air'

[Sean Woodruff]

Originally Posted by 85MH325

All of the sway-control hitches on the market will do their job if set up properly, and I'm not convinced that the expensive hitches do anything but mask the other causes of sway. The Hensley and Pro Pride are excellent hitches and perform as advertised, but they cost four times that of the Dual Cam or Equal-i-zer; both of which have hundreds of thousands of successful tow miles without incident.

There are some significant assumptions here.

1. All sway control hitches will do their job if set up properly.

In all instances? A lane change at 70MPH? Cresting a hill at 65MPH with a side wind gust?

2. The Hensley and ProPride are equivalent to the Dual-Cam and the Equalizer.

Not even close. The only similarities are that they all connect the tow vehicle to the trailer.

3. The expensive hitches "mask" causes of sway.

If the "other causes of sway" DO NOT cause sway they are not "causes of sway" when "masked." That's just logic.

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

On receiver label:

Max gross trailer weight.________________________ Max tongue weight.

Weight distributing...........8,850 lbs_________________________885 lbs

Weight carrying...............5,000 lbs_________________________500 lbs

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

PAYLOAD limit...yes

RECEIVER limit...yes (with or without w/d since most have 2 ratings)

but tongue limit?

wazzzz dat?

cheers
2air'

Hi, somewhere you lost me; This is exactly what my receiver label states. Two ratings for trailer weight and two ratings for tongue weight. Wouldn't you consider this the same as tongue limit?

[85MH325]

Sean.... I'm not here to get into an argument, and I understand your desire to defend your product. And I freely admit I haven't bought and used either the Hensley or the ProPride. I do, however have some twenty-five years experience towing with various tow vehicles and trailers all using the Dual Cam in all of its iterations over the years. I've learned how to set them up properly, and how poorly they perform when they're not. And yes, I have been in outrageous situations over the years, and have had only one sway event; that with the Excursion and a 2500 lb fiberglass camper where I was towing on a bare ball.

It's not a matter of proving your product "good"... it's the assumption that the less expensive hitches aren't competent even when set up properly, which contradicts the millions of miles of experience of thousands and thousands of drivers who have used them successfully.

And what my experience showed me is that the problem I experienced had nothing to do with the hitch at all, once it was properly set up. It was, in fact, an engineering problem that Ford never did own up to. Once those issues were addressed, my entire setup was amazingly stable. While both of the expensive hitches may have masked my rear-axle steering, at least for a while, neither was capable of fixing it, and that was the major cause of my instability issues.

I understand the premise and engineering behind moving the effective hitch point to a point at the rear axle, and that's a good thing... but to say that the other hitches are unsafe just isn't quite accurate.

Roger

[barts]

Adding damping (friction) to a hitch is attempting to mask inherent instabilities. Unstable trailers are caused by:

0) too high a speed.
1) not enough tongue weight.
2) too high a polar moment of inertia on the trailer.

Other factors, such as rear axle axle steer will make things worse.

Many times what is reported as trailer sway is actually a phase reversal in the steering response of the vehicle. Under these conditions, attempting to correct sway w/ countersteering input actually exacerbates the problem; holding the wheel steady or actually steering w/ the sway will cause the sway to damp down.

True catastrophic trailer instability occurs w/o (additionall) driver input.

- Bart

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff

There are some significant assumptions here.

1. All sway control hitches will do their job if set up properly.

In all instances? A lane change at 70MPH? Cresting a hill at 65MPH with a side wind gust?

2. The Hensley and ProPride are equivalent to the Dual-Cam and the Equalizer.

Not even close. The only similarities are that they all connect the tow vehicle to the trailer.

3. The expensive hitches "mask" causes of sway.

If the "other causes of sway" DO NOT cause sway they are not "causes of sway" when "masked." That's just logic.

Hi, you lost me too; Doesn't "MASK" mean to hide or cover-up?

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, somewhere you lost me...Wouldn't you consider this the same as tongue limit?

we'z all lost bob, but some get found.

the point is the RECEIVER in your case has a tongue limit, but that isn't your lincoln's tongue limit.

so while it is GOOD the o.p. is think'n through these issues...

we'z gotta be clear on whatiswhat.

Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff

There are some significant assumptions here....

NO point debatin' with 85mh325...

it's all been done b4 and will get ya NO where...

he's towed EVERYTHING with EVERYTHING in EVERY condition imaginable.

and has a...

long history of NOT liking the haha video or ANY testimonial related to ANY hitch...

(don't matter WHAT the customer reports OR what empirical trials have been done)

long history of using $$$ in the equation when there is NO variable related to DOLLARs in the towing formula'ez...

long history of suggesting that it all related to proper/improper set up, including ALL rigs OR drivers that report problems ...

long history of debating what sway IS or is NOT (and only his definition is valid)......

and

NO history of ever using these "expensive hitches"...

not one hour of time in THAT saddle OR the copilot seat.

even when the offer was made to DRIVE MY RIDE for free...

and expect the terms and debate to CHANGE directions (no one suggested OTHER hitches aren't safe or effective, for example...)

so save yer key strokes folks.

cheers
2air'

[Sean Woodruff]

Originally Posted by 85MH325

Sean.... I'm not here to get into an argument, and I understand your desire to defend your product. And I freely admit I haven't bought and used either the Hensley or the ProPride. I do, however have some twenty-five years experience towing with various tow vehicles and trailers all using the Dual Cam in all of its iterations over the years. I've learned how to set them up properly, and how poorly they perform when they're not. And yes, I have been in outrageous situations over the years, and have had only one sway event; that with the Excursion and a 2500 lb fiberglass camper where I was towing on a bare ball.

It's not a matter of proving your product "good"... it's the assumption that the less expensive hitches aren't competent even when set up properly, which contradicts the millions of miles of experience of thousands and thousands of drivers who have used them successfully.

And what my experience showed me is that the problem I experienced had nothing to do with the hitch at all, once it was properly set up. It was, in fact, an engineering problem that Ford never did own up to. Once those issues were addressed, my entire setup was amazingly stable. While both of the expensive hitches may have masked my rear-axle steering, at least for a while, neither was capable of fixing it, and that was the major cause of my instability issues.

I understand the premise and engineering behind moving the effective hitch point to a point at the rear axle, and that's a good thing... but to say that the other hitches are unsafe just isn't quite accurate.

Roger

I don't make the assumption that the other hitches aren't competent. In fact, I sell the Reese product. I do make the assumption that there are GRADES of "competence", or performance, and people are free to make their own decision on the performance they desire.

As for the experience factor, that is a false sense of security. Experience towing in a stable condition for many years, and many thousands of miles, only trains one to believe that the experience supersedes problematic situations. I can cite example after example of experienced people, towing thousands of miles, for many years, who find themselves in a situation for which they are inexperienced.

There is a reason that military, police, fire and many other professionals TRAIN for "situations." They all have MUCH more experience is sitting around than they do in handling the inevitable.

I wonder where everyone towing with a hitch that will allow trailer sway to start can go to practice their sway damping procedures.

[2airishuman]

Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff

...There is a reason that military, police, fire and many other professionals TRAIN for "situations."

They all have MUCH more experience is sitting around than they do in handling the inevitable...

now you REALLY stepped in it sean...

roger IS the fuzz...

cheers
2air'