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Old 03-17-2010, 07:03 PM   #15
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Sean.... I'm not here to get into an argument, and I understand your desire to defend your product. And I freely admit I haven't bought and used either the Hensley or the ProPride. I do, however have some twenty-five years experience towing with various tow vehicles and trailers all using the Dual Cam in all of its iterations over the years. I've learned how to set them up properly, and how poorly they perform when they're not. And yes, I have been in outrageous situations over the years, and have had only one sway event; that with the Excursion and a 2500 lb fiberglass camper where I was towing on a bare ball.

It's not a matter of proving your product "good"... it's the assumption that the less expensive hitches aren't competent even when set up properly, which contradicts the millions of miles of experience of thousands and thousands of drivers who have used them successfully.

And what my experience showed me is that the problem I experienced had nothing to do with the hitch at all, once it was properly set up. It was, in fact, an engineering problem that Ford never did own up to. Once those issues were addressed, my entire setup was amazingly stable. While both of the expensive hitches may have masked my rear-axle steering, at least for a while, neither was capable of fixing it, and that was the major cause of my instability issues.

I understand the premise and engineering behind moving the effective hitch point to a point at the rear axle, and that's a good thing... but to say that the other hitches are unsafe just isn't quite accurate.

Roger
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:07 PM   #16
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Adding damping (friction) to a hitch is attempting to mask inherent instabilities. Unstable trailers are caused by:

0) too high a speed.
1) not enough tongue weight.
2) too high a polar moment of inertia on the trailer.

Other factors, such as rear axle axle steer will make things worse.

Many times what is reported as trailer sway is actually a phase reversal in the steering response of the vehicle. Under these conditions, attempting to correct sway w/ countersteering input actually exacerbates the problem; holding the wheel steady or actually steering w/ the sway will cause the sway to damp down.

True catastrophic trailer instability occurs w/o (additionall) driver input.

- Bart
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:09 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff View Post
There are some significant assumptions here.

1. All sway control hitches will do their job if set up properly.

In all instances? A lane change at 70MPH? Cresting a hill at 65MPH with a side wind gust?

2. The Hensley and ProPride are equivalent to the Dual-Cam and the Equalizer.

Not even close. The only similarities are that they all connect the tow vehicle to the trailer.

3. The expensive hitches "mask" causes of sway.

If the "other causes of sway" DO NOT cause sway they are not "causes of sway" when "masked." That's just logic.
Hi, you lost me too; Doesn't "MASK" mean to hide or cover-up?
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:09 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Hi, somewhere you lost me...Wouldn't you consider this the same as tongue limit?
we'z all lost bob, but some get found.

the point is the RECEIVER in your case has a tongue limit, but that isn't your lincoln's tongue limit.

so while it is GOOD the o.p. is think'n through these issues...

we'z gotta be clear on whatiswhat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean Woodruff View Post
There are some significant assumptions here....
NO point debatin' with 85mh325...

it's all been done b4 and will get ya NO where...

he's towed EVERYTHING with EVERYTHING in EVERY condition imaginable.

and has a...

long history of NOT liking the haha video or ANY testimonial related to ANY hitch...

(don't matter WHAT the customer reports OR what empirical trials have been done)

long history of using $$$ in the equation when there is NO variable related to DOLLARs in the towing formula'ez...

long history of suggesting that it all related to proper/improper set up, including ALL rigs OR drivers that report problems ...

long history of debating what sway IS or is NOT (and only his definition is valid)......

and

NO history of ever using these "expensive hitches"...

not one hour of time in THAT saddle OR the copilot seat.

even when the offer was made to DRIVE MY RIDE for free...

and expect the terms and debate to CHANGE directions (no one suggested OTHER hitches aren't safe or effective, for example...)

so save yer key strokes folks.

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:16 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325 View Post
Sean.... I'm not here to get into an argument, and I understand your desire to defend your product. And I freely admit I haven't bought and used either the Hensley or the ProPride. I do, however have some twenty-five years experience towing with various tow vehicles and trailers all using the Dual Cam in all of its iterations over the years. I've learned how to set them up properly, and how poorly they perform when they're not. And yes, I have been in outrageous situations over the years, and have had only one sway event; that with the Excursion and a 2500 lb fiberglass camper where I was towing on a bare ball.

It's not a matter of proving your product "good"... it's the assumption that the less expensive hitches aren't competent even when set up properly, which contradicts the millions of miles of experience of thousands and thousands of drivers who have used them successfully.

And what my experience showed me is that the problem I experienced had nothing to do with the hitch at all, once it was properly set up. It was, in fact, an engineering problem that Ford never did own up to. Once those issues were addressed, my entire setup was amazingly stable. While both of the expensive hitches may have masked my rear-axle steering, at least for a while, neither was capable of fixing it, and that was the major cause of my instability issues.

I understand the premise and engineering behind moving the effective hitch point to a point at the rear axle, and that's a good thing... but to say that the other hitches are unsafe just isn't quite accurate.

Roger

I don't make the assumption that the other hitches aren't competent. In fact, I sell the Reese product. I do make the assumption that there are GRADES of "competence", or performance, and people are free to make their own decision on the performance they desire.

As for the experience factor, that is a false sense of security. Experience towing in a stable condition for many years, and many thousands of miles, only trains one to believe that the experience supersedes problematic situations. I can cite example after example of experienced people, towing thousands of miles, for many years, who find themselves in a situation for which they are inexperienced.

There is a reason that military, police, fire and many other professionals TRAIN for "situations." They all have MUCH more experience is sitting around than they do in handling the inevitable.

I wonder where everyone towing with a hitch that will allow trailer sway to start can go to practice their sway damping procedures.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:26 PM   #20
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...There is a reason that military, police, fire and many other professionals TRAIN for "situations."

They all have MUCH more experience is sitting around than they do in handling the inevitable...
now you REALLY stepped in it sean...

roger IS the fuzz...

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:27 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS View Post
Hi, you lost me too; Doesn't "MASK" mean to hide or cover-up?
I put mask in quotes because I don't believe that is actually what is happening.

If "X" is a CAUSE of sway and sway does not exist then "X" cannot be a CAUSE of sway.

There is no masking unless one does not use basic logic.
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Old 03-17-2010, 07:31 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
now you REALLY stepped in it sean...

roger IS the fuzz...

cheers
2air'

Well, then my training for experience example should make sense.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
NO point debatin' with 85mh325...

he's towed EVERYTHING with EVERYTHING in EVERY condition imaginable.

and has a...

long history of NOT liking the haha video or ANY testimonial related to ANY hitch...

(don't matter WHAT the customer reports OR what empirical trials have been done)

long history of using $$$ in the equation when there is NO variable related to DOLLARs in the towing formula'ez...

long history of suggesting that it all related to proper/improper set up, including ALL rigs OR drivers that report problems ...

long history of debating what sway IS or is NOT (and only his definition is valid)......

cheers
2air'
Guilty as charged... for some of this. While I don't profess to have towed everything with everything in every imaginable situation, I have towed six different Airstream trailers and another half-dozen fiberglass RV trailers with at least that many tow vehicles from a '92 Toyota 4WD to a '79 F250 supercab long bed many thousands of miles over the past twenty-five years. That has given me some experience(s) many folks probably won't have. And, as far as the definition of sway, I guess those who have had a sway event know what it is; if you're wondering whether or not what you experienced was a sway event, it probably wasn't. That's as close as I can come.

Testimonials are lovely, but they don't prove anything. A comprehensive systematic analysis of crashes involving trailers and weight distributing hitches would be much more valuable; unfortunately I haven't found anything like that either. If that body of work exists, please point me to it. My accident reconstruction background tells me that every accident has multiple contributing factors, and to believe that a single gizmo is a complete fix for a multifaceted and complex issue is... well... simplistic.

So basically, we've got vendors telling us that their testing says that their product is superior to everything else out there; SO superior that they should get 4x the amount of money for them. We have owners of those products cheerleading for their product of choice; again without anything substantive proving that the products perform significantly better than the less expensive alternatives.

So... I'm sorry that my being publicly skeptical of the claims, hype, and cheerleading is so upsetting to some of you. I'm just not a follower, and my practical experience leads me to believe that the factors that contribute to sway aren't magically solved by a hitch setup. It still makes sense to me that a sway control hitch setup of whatever brand should be used AFTER you figure out and correct whatever your issues are, and you really don't need to spend $2500 to achieve that.

What really chaps me though are folks who tell other folks that a product will be the panacea that cures all their ills... that's patent medicine marketing from the turn of the last century.

Roger
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:45 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325 View Post
Guilty as charged... for some of this. While I don't profess to have towed everything with everything in every imaginable situation, I have towed six different Airstream trailers and another half-dozen fiberglass RV trailers with at least that many tow vehicles from a '92 Toyota 4WD to a '79 F250 supercab long bed many thousands of miles over the past twenty-five years. That has given me some experience(s) many folks probably won't have. And, as far as the definition of sway, I guess those who have had a sway event know what it is; if you're wondering whether or not what you experienced was a sway event, it probably wasn't. That's as close as I can come.

Testimonials are lovely, but they don't prove anything. A comprehensive systematic analysis of crashes involving trailers and weight distributing hitches would be much more valuable; unfortunately I haven't found anything like that either. If that body of work exists, please point me to it. My accident reconstruction background tells me that every accident has multiple contributing factors, and to believe that a single gizmo is a complete fix for a multifaceted and complex issue is... well... simplistic.
Do you see the irony in these two pragraphs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325 View Post
So basically, we've got vendors telling us that their testing says that their product is superior to everything else out there; SO superior that they should get 4x the amount of money for them. We have owners of those products cheerleading for their product of choice; again without anything substantive proving that the products perform significantly better than the less expensive alternatives.
To use your words, your analysis of business and product pricing is simplistic. It's the exact logic used by people who value MONEY over performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325 View Post
So... I'm sorry that my being publicly skeptical of the claims, hype, and cheerleading is so upsetting to some of you. I'm just not a follower, and my practical experience leads me to believe that the factors that contribute to sway aren't magically solved by a hitch setup. It still makes sense to me that a sway control hitch setup of whatever brand should be used AFTER you figure out and correct whatever your issues are, and you really don't need to spend $2500 to achieve that.
Again, not an ounce of logic in this paragraph. "Factors that contribute to sway" need to be "solved" when THERE IS NOT ANY SWAY? Why is one of your factors any more important than the hitch factor? You have an ad hominem argument here, sir.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 85MH325 View Post
What really chaps me though are folks who tell other folks that a product will be the panacea that cures all their ills... that's patent medicine marketing from the turn of the last century.

Roger
I don't think I have ever slapped a Momma, let alone yours, but you insist on insulting my professionalism by hurling ignorant insults at what I spend my life doing.

Whether you would EVER purchase one of my products really isn't of consequence to me. I never knew you existed before tonight and I've been just fine. What is sad is I imagine all the opportunities you have missed, the people you have insulted, the friends you have not had, due to the attitude you have displayed here. Just sad.

Good luck, and good night, sir.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:47 PM   #25
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Sway confession.

Hi, I have to make a public confession; I did omitt the fact that my Safari, once, [note: only once] swayed, violently from side to side, and was completely uncontrollable. But it was safely parked in my driveway during a California 6.0 Earth Quake.
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:52 PM   #26
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Hi, I have to make a public confession; I did omitt the fact that my Safari, once, [note: only once] swayed, violently from side to side, and was completely uncontrollable.___________________________________ ________________ But it was safely parked in my driveway during a California 6.0 Earth quake.

I'll be standing on the tailgate of my covered wagon in your town real soon. Just buy a bottle of my "Earthquake Elixer" and rub it on the 'stream. It will deflect, and reflect, all sway inducing forces up to 9.0 on the Richter scale. Guaranteed or your money back. (Small print: You have to bring the unopened bottle to my next stop and detail how you used the product and applied it to get your money back.)
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Old 03-17-2010, 09:55 PM   #27
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Hi, Sean. If we ever get a 9.0, I think the party will be over.
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Old 03-17-2010, 10:31 PM   #28
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Whether you would EVER purchase one of my products really isn't of consequence to me. I never knew you existed before tonight and I've been just fine. What is sad is I imagine all the opportunities you have missed, the people you have insulted, the friends you have not had, due to the attitude you have displayed here. Just sad.

Good luck, and good night, sir.
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