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Old 02-18-2010, 07:27 AM   #85
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lick frozen flag poles
porcupines are good to hug
no need for sway control
what could possibly go wrong
Thank you Rodney....this debate is finally OVER!!
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:12 PM   #86
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i c...

so the real reason 4 posting is to FEEL better?

i OBJECT!

just kidding.
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It is my belief that every action of every living thing is done with the INTENTION of making itself feel better. Even a masochist feels better when he hurts himself.
It makes me feel better when I trim your posts.
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Old 02-18-2010, 12:16 PM   #87
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Thank you Rodney....this debate is finally OVER!!
Bob,
This thread may die away, but I am pretty certain that the debate will rise again to torment mortals. I think that the next time, I will test the ignore thread feature.

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Old 02-18-2010, 01:46 PM   #88
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So in other words you really don't NEED sway control. Unless you think you need sway control. So if I don't think about it you don't need it.

Perfect!!










Just kidding, better to safe than sorry. Right? <darn. there I go again.>

Shane
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Old 02-19-2010, 09:37 AM   #89
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I think those after perfect safety should perhaps not have an RV and should not travel ...

But then, by that reasoning, you shouldn't use the bath or kitchen, either, as that is where most accidents happen.

Every choice you make, everything you do has a risk. The debate is about that risk. It is renewed every time you make a decision.

Debate over?

Perhaps only as an indication of death.

Meanwhile, I'm not going to be sorry by putting absolute safety as paramount and not doing anything.

I am going to undertake some safety risk and get my rig out on the roads and go camping. I'll take due precautions, sure, but I'm not going to let fears of extremely low odds events deter me. I'd be sorry about the missed experiences I gain from undertaking that risk. As long as that gain has a comfortable (to me) margin over the risk and I can afford the costs, I'm for it.
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Old 02-19-2010, 10:15 AM   #90
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I think those after perfect safety should perhaps not have an RV and should not travel ...

Every choice you make, everything you do has a risk. The debate is about that risk. It is renewed every time you make a decision.

Debate over?

Perhaps only as an indication of death.

Meanwhile, I'm not going to be sorry by putting absolute safety as paramount and not doing anything.

I am going to undertake some safety risk and get my rig out on the roads and go camping. I'll take due precautions, sure, but I'm not going to let fears of extremely low odds events deter me. I'd be sorry about the missed experiences I gain from undertaking that risk. As long as that gain has a comfortable (to me) margin over the risk and I can afford the costs, I'm for it.
The risks you wish to take, of course, is your sole decision.

But, when the driver in control, makes a decision, that to whatever degree, may compromise safety, does he/she offer that same choice to the passengers?

The answer obviously is no.

That then becomes a downer, since the driver in control, has compelled the passengers, to go along with his/her safety issue decisions, and "ALL" without being reasonably informed of such, and allowed to make a choice, of riding along, or not.

You say "everytime you" make a decision, but that doesn't hold any water for the passengers, who have just as much right to maximized safety, when the "you" makes the sole decision, and makes no effort to communicate the facts with them.

The person in control of a motor vehicle, aircraft, boat, train, or bus, has a moral responsibility to assure total safety of the passengers, to the very best of their abilities.

An ill informed passenger, becomes the scapegoat, but without knowing so.

Bummer.

Andy
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Old 02-19-2010, 01:05 PM   #91
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The risks you wish to take, of course, is your sole decision.

But, when the driver in control, makes a decision, that to whatever degree, may compromise safety, does he/she offer that same choice to the passengers?

The answer obviously is no.

That then becomes a downer, since the driver in control, has compelled the passengers, to go along with his/her safety issue decisions, and "ALL" without being reasonably informed of such, and allowed to make a choice, of riding along, or not.

You say "everytime you" make a decision, but that doesn't hold any water for the passengers, who have just as much right to maximized safety, when the "you" makes the sole decision, and makes no effort to communicate the facts with them.

The person in control of a motor vehicle, aircraft, boat, train, or bus, has a moral responsibility to assure total safety of the passengers, to the very best of their abilities.

An ill informed passenger, becomes the scapegoat, but without knowing so.

Bummer.

Andy
To quote Charlie Brown"Good Grief"
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Old 02-20-2010, 09:14 AM   #92
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The person in control of a motor vehicle, aircraft, boat, train, or bus, has a moral responsibility to assure total safety of the passengers,
The fact is that there is no "total safety" in the real world.

The safest driving will need to be with the understanding that there is always risk and one must never get complacent by thinking he has it 'solved' with some gimmick that supposedly assures "total safety."

Quote:
to the very best of their abilities
This is the issue at hand. Some of the attributes could include good and accurate information not tainted by wishful thinking, fantasy, or myth; proper adjustments for circumstances and conditions; proper training. Then there is the matter of paying attention to what you are doing (distracted driving is the number one cause of crashes).

It may be a "bummer" that we live in the real world and have to face its limitations, costs, and risks but that is what it is. To me, it is more of a bummer that there are so many who seem to want to avoid reality and try to force these discussions out of it.

There are very many variables that the responsible driver has to consider against each other and adjust to accommodate. Fortunately, the actual history shows that the great majority of TT RVers do a good job of that and are some of the safest drivers on the road.
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Old 02-20-2010, 11:07 AM   #93
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For those in doubt, see post #54.......if you're STILL not convinced, try this: let the WIFE make the final decision! If I lose control while towing without sway control (or any other recommended safety-related device), I wouldn't want THAT "held over my head" indefinitely!!
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Old 02-20-2010, 11:25 AM   #94
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The fact is that there is no "total safety" in the real world.

This is the issue at hand. Some of the attributes could include good and accurate information not tainted by wishful thinking, fantasy, or myth; proper adjustments for circumstances and conditions; proper training. Then there is the matter of paying attention to what you are doing (distracted driving is the number one cause of crashes).
Obviously, your convinced that a sway control is not for you. Great.

BUT, when another driver, or a foreign object was dropped on the road in front of you and causes you to swerve your rig, you don't have time to play games.

That, is real life, and far from a myth, wishful thinking, or a fantacy.

The number one cause for loss of control accidents, specifically towing an Airstream, is not inattention, but indeed it is improper rigging.

The old boy scout motto still rings the bell, loud and clear.

BE PREPARED

Any argument against maximizing safety, IS wishful thinking, that's awarded with a blue ribbon.

Andy
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Old 02-20-2010, 11:54 AM   #95
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You guys aren't paying attention

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Thank you Rodney....this debate is finally OVER!!
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:35 AM   #96
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re: "Obviously, your convinced that a sway control is not for you."
-- this is the logical fallacy that is called the 'reduce to the absurd'

My position is that people should (1) avoid complacency by thinking they have 'total safety' when on the road, (2) prepare both their rig and themselves adequately , (3) pay attention to their driving task, and (4) know a 'snake oil salesman' when they see one so they can avoid misdirection and bad decisions for their circumstances.

re: "The number one cause for loss of control accidents, specifically towing an Airstream, is not inattention, but indeed it is improper rigging."
-- I would like to see the support for this assertion. I agree that there are lot of rigging faults on RV's, but I think causative factors are being confused with contributing factors. If you look through this thread, a critical reading will determine that every scare story here has some cause that prompted the instability and that cause was not sway control. The stories here also do not provide sufficient evidence that a sway control device would have made any difference. They don't even get into the type or nature of the sway control or any of the other pertinent variables.

Besides logical fallacies, one might look at the idea of falsifiable hypothesis. e.g. if crashes were caused by lack of sway control, then why can people run without it and not crash? Many of the frightening assertions made in this thread fail when considered in such a rational fashion. That is why I think they are exagerated and over-hyped and misleading. If anything is going to reduce safety, it is that misdirection because it leads people away from a careful consideration of their own environment, self, circumstances, and context.
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Old 02-21-2010, 09:52 AM   #97
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re: "Obviously, your convinced that a sway control is not for you."
-- this is the logical fallacy that is called the 'reduce to the absurd'

My position is that people should (1) avoid complacency by thinking they have 'total safety' when on the road, (2) prepare both their rig and themselves adequately , (3) pay attention to their driving task, and (4) know a 'snake oil salesman' when they see one so they can avoid misdirection and bad decisions for their circumstances.

re: "The number one cause for loss of control accidents, specifically towing an Airstream, is not inattention, but indeed it is improper rigging."
-- I would like to see the support for this assertion. I agree that there are lot of rigging faults on RV's, but I think causative factors are being confused with contributing factors. If you look through this thread, a critical reading will determine that every scare story here has some cause that prompted the instability and that cause was not sway control. The stories here also do not provide sufficient evidence that a sway control device would have made any difference. They don't even get into the type or nature of the sway control or any of the other pertinent variables.

Besides logical fallacies, one might look at the idea of falsifiable hypothesis. e.g. if crashes were caused by lack of sway control, then why can people run without it and not crash? Many of the frightening assertions made in this thread fail when considered in such a rational fashion. That is why I think they are exagerated and over-hyped and misleading. If anything is going to reduce safety, it is that misdirection because it leads people away from a careful consideration of their own environment, self, circumstances, and context.
Experience and accident investigations, offer tons of support, always has, always will.

Insurance company data, is seldom offered, especially when an individual may seek it. An industry can ask, and they did, and it was provided, some 40 years ago.

Andy
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Old 02-21-2010, 10:03 AM   #98
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I guess we have a ways to go until we reduce it to the absurd.

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