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Old 02-16-2010, 10:42 AM   #71
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I recently pulled a UHaul trailer without sway control after having tugged my 19 footer for three years with the Reese cam system. Even a small uHaul on the highway was a nerve wracking experience. Get the sway control hitch!
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Old 02-16-2010, 12:44 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by bryanl View Post
...The point I was trying to make was that crashes involving towing trailers are few and far between, that is all...
sorry but this is just as vague, invalid and OPINION based as the baseless opinions lambasted earlier...

for YEARs HERE you've requested OTHERS post accident data, laws, examples of cause/effect and so on...

and when they do u "yes butt" those who do just that...

and thats NOT a personal attack, just an observation about patterns and habits and perspective.
_______

so here's a notion, why don't YOU collect the data or post the case law or examples?

u can start with something CLOSE to home and association...

1. every year 800-1000 streams gather in one spot.
2. every year at LEAST 1 of those streams is crashed in route.
3. sometimes 2 or more crashes happen going to/from the big gig...
4. this is almost as predictable as hot weather happening over the july 1 week.

as a wb'er u could DIG into this short but consistently available occurrence list...

really it would NOT be that hard to organize and carry out this project WITHIN the club and limited to only 1 gathering.

and it would not be difficult to contact PAST crash drivers and explore what they THINK happened...

it would be bias info but still useful in the analysis and going forward.
___________

it's relatively EASY to investigate these things after they happen.

but DIFFICULT to determine what REALLY was/is at the root of untoward towing events...

i've posted the list of probable issues before and it includes ALL of the known vehicular 'driving/driver' issues...

plus a few extras related to towing.
___________

the factors (demographics, patterns, miles logged...) are DIFFERENT for rv'ers that RENTAL trailer towing and slightly different for boating too...

and insurance rates are based on a LOT of easier to track variables that sway control yes/no...

BUT u can peel a way ALL of that static,

by JUST focusing on the almost predictable 1 or 2 events that happen every year

on the road 2/from the international.

cheer
2air'
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Old 02-17-2010, 09:24 AM   #73
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Diesel1,

Sometimes it takes a little 'thick skin' to post on these forums in controversial topics. Everybody has opinions and 'seat of the pants' experiences. Facts are asked for to support positions as Bryan has provided. Facts are then discredited by others when they don't support a position. It never ends. It never will.

Get popcorn, enjoy the show. If you find yourself in a sway situation all the opinions, experiences and facts on this forum are not going to help you. Quick thinking and knowing what to do will. How many accident forms have a box to check for whether the TV and TT were conncected with a sway hitch? Trying to get to some of the data we all would like to see would be very hard. Some types of accidents have no bearing on what hitch is used, for example being rear ended.

Keep posting!
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:27 AM   #74
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Quote:
sorry but this is just as vague, invalid and OPINION based as the baseless opinions lambasted earlier...
no matter the denials, the reality of the comments is clear. I do not understand the personal attack and I do not understand equating a sample with a population in excess of 100,000 used in a carefully crafted report based on data gathered by non-involved personnel as equivalent in quality to a small collection of personal scare stories.

Yes, there is need for a proper interpretation of measure but the gap between the scare stories you find in these threads and the available data is quite wide. The sample size of people posting here is on the order of tens and the scare stories in the tens of percent of that sample. That is to contrast with an actual carefully constructed record that shows incidents in the parts per thousand or less. The difference of three or more orders of magnitude should register as a significant indicator that the anecdotes provided in threads like this to frighten people into action are matters of exception and not norm.

Quote:
and insurance rates are based on a LOT of easier to track variables that sway control yes/no...
indeed they are, but again, they provide a gross measure that qualifies the scare stories provided. If indeed those stories were the 'norm' rather than the exception, then there would be a lot of damage for insurance companies to pay for and, hence, their rates would be higher (or they would make prices conditional on rigging). Besides the rationalizing, the complaint also misses the reason I brought insurance up in the first place. Insurance is just one of several easily found measures that supported the conclusion I offered. Trying to pull it out of that context is not contributing to enlightenment but rather defending a non-defensible position.

re "How many accident forms have a box to check for whether the TV and TT were conncected with a sway hitch?" - in crashes of any significance, a report is prepared by highway patrol officers who are trained in accident analysis. From my experience with them, they are typical 'follow procedure' efforts with the caveat that their report has to withstand scrutiny in trial (a primary reason for well the defined procedure). - that could get into an interesting discussion about the NHP compared to local LEO's and the jurisdictional matters related to where sway control incidents might occur but that isn't for this thread, I think.

All this just begs the point. With so few crashes, it matters not what type of hitch was used. A simple, qualitative comparison indicates that crashes involving TT RV's are sufficiently rare that type of hitch cannot be a significant factor. That is an easy and obvious inference that must be accommodated by those who insist that hitch sway control mechanisms of some undefined type are an absolute must for safety - unless you posit that all TT RV's on Nevada roads in 2006 had a properly installed and adjusted sway control mechanism of the particular undefined type.

To me, the relative qualities of the data are clear. The inferences are sound and reasonable. I am willing to entertain discussion about the uncertainties and the provenance and the qualifications but I don't see very much of that in many responses here.

The real question is why these sort of issues are "controversial topics" and why they stimulate such personal attack, dismissal of available data, and a plethora of logical fallacies and denial of reality. What is the problem, here? Why is getting beyond the horizon of one's own personal experience and seeing the world as it is from a more holistic viewpoint so difficult?

What we really should be discussing is why RV TT travel is so safe despite all the strange ways people rig their RV's.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:39 AM   #75
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Originally Posted by bryanl View Post
...What we really should be discussing is why RV TT travel is so safe despite all the strange ways people rig their RV's.
good idea, START a thread on that topic and POST a position and WHY u thunk it ...

ANY position really...

i dont' see ANY scare stories here or any personal attacks...

but i do see a LOT of keystrokes that ARE scare stories ABOUT scare stories...

and references to non existent personal attacks that INVITE personal attacks...

this silliness could NOT be more circular

and the only thing that FRIGHTENs me in this thread...

is the risk of digging into statistical analysis and study designs...

i will give you ONE thing b'...

the ad hom' term has not been used yet...

chill baby and GO camping!

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-17-2010, 11:49 AM   #76
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Review

When I look over this thread, I have the following observations:
The original poster asked "Do I NEED sway control"
On reflection, since I see need capitalized, I would say no, no one NEEDS it. However, we as readers can only guess what the OP's goals are. However since this is one of the most controversial topics that come up here again, and again, and again, the emotional knee jerk reaction is to take up one of two diametrically opposed positions and then the battle begins. The OP is left to try to choose between black or white, while a war rages around him. This doe not serve the OP or the forum well at all. I think all of us need to drop the emotional baggage of this issue before we reply to any post. I suggest that first, the OP's real goals should be determined. Once that has been achieved, we should reply with our opinions, without claiming them to be inspired gospel.
I think a real effort needs to be made by all to accept that this is a not a black or white issue. There are too many variables in this equation to have one and only one answer. For instance, you all would be hard pressed to convince me that I "need" sway control on my the trailer that I tow my 14.5 foot sailboat with my 3/4 ton PU. You would be equally hard pressed to convince me that it would be detrimental ( except for making launching the boat more a chore).
One other thing I feel needs to be done by all of us, is too be satisfied with stating our position and not to feel as though we must defeat the positions of others.. (that is what the argue thread was created for). Let's go there and wage battle without confusing the OP.
Well, I said that and I feel better. Do I think it will happen? Not really.

Regards,
Ken

Afterthought: People who buy Airstreams are intelligent by definition. They should be able to form their own opinion when presented with the evidence. I would hope they can separate the wheat from the chaff on their own.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:34 PM   #77
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w7ts,

I came away from this thread with a different perspective. Does the OP NEED sway control? Not until he DOES, and then he better have it or be very quick in handling a soon to be out of control trailer. It is all about risk. Pics of trailers on their side with no description of what happened is pure scare tactics. Lookie what will happen to you if you don't do as we say? Who knows, the pics could be photoshopped for all we know.

The trailers could have been totally stopped and the wind did them in. No description is scare tactics. Maybe they were driving at the end of a runway and the jet blast took them out. We don't know.

Data was presented and immediately discounted since it did not support enough accidents or the positon that real risk is out there for those that tow.

I really don't know and am surprised at how diverse the comments are and how polarized the positions seem to be. How many tow horses with WD/sway hitches, or boats (especially with surge brakes) with WD/sway?

Pretty remarkable all the comments on this thread.
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Old 02-17-2010, 01:48 PM   #78
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Ken.

The basic difference comes from those that "have been there" and those that have "NOT" been there.

Those that haven't, want technical data.

Those that have, don't need technical data, but could ask for technical data that says, sway control is not necessary, from those that oppose it.

It's about as basic as sharpening a screwdriver on a bench grinder.

Most people will wear goggles, some say it's not necessary.

The real fact is that most, but not all, believe in maximizing safety, when towing. Some feel that's a waste of money.

Some feel seat belts are useless and a waste of money

Some feel texting while driving is ok, as only a few people get killed because of it.

Same for those that like to read a book, while driving.

The bottom line, is, and always will be, dissenters, no matter what the subject might be.

Those that argue against maximizing safety, have exercised their choice to disagree.

Fortunately, most owners feel otherwise.

Laws could be passed, but the again, would be ignored by the same oblectors, as they do about seat belts, and texting, etc.

So the real is those thast do, and those that don't. To argue who is correct, is usually fruitless.

Probably, the only converts would be newbies, who really don't typically know. But then, there are oldies, who should know, BUT, don't want to be basically bothered by facts, or even other opinions from owners that have been around a long long time.

Again, that's their "I live in a free country" choice. Good or bad.

Wise? Maybe, maybe not.

But, for those that say, "no sway control for them" should not argue with those that say "always a sway control".

This argument is not a lot different than how should a steak be cooked, rare, medium, or well. Individual choices are the name of the game, with steaks, as well as safety.

Andy
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Old 02-17-2010, 04:14 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by jmtandem View Post
w7ts,

I came away from this thread with a different perspective. Does the OP NEED sway control? Not until he DOES, and then he better have it or be very quick in handling a soon to be out of control trailer. It is all about risk. Pics of trailers on their side with no description of what happened is pure scare tactics. Lookie what will happen to you if you don't do as we say? Who knows, the pics could be photoshopped for all we know.

The trailers could have been totally stopped and the wind did them in. No description is scare tactics. Maybe they were driving at the end of a runway and the jet blast took them out. We don't know.

Data was presented and immediately discounted since it did not support enough accidents or the positon that real risk is out there for those that tow.

I really don't know and am surprised at how diverse the comments are and how polarized the positions seem to be. How many tow horses with WD/sway hitches, or boats (especially with surge brakes) with WD/sway?

Pretty remarkable all the comments on this thread.
As near as I can tell I agree with what you say.

My lament is (and I am as guilty as anyone else) that we can't just each provide our best advice or first hand anecdotes/experience without having to question/discredit the advice others give. I have made up my mind that is what I am going to do. Feel free to call me on it, if you catch me not doing that. If individuals want to dispute each other's views or data, then it should be taken to a different venue or thread. Allow the OP with the question to evaluate what was presented and come to his/hers own conclusion or ask additional questions. I do agree that a picture of a trailer on its side with no explanation of the circumstances is really of no value in this context. However they are interesting to see, but better viewed in a different venue.

"Horse trailer" reminded me of a local story a couple months ago. A local guy was towing an expensive horse trailer with two very nice (and totally Innocent) horses in it on one of the state hwys near here. He didn't think safety chains were necessary. The trailer jumped the hitch at about 50 mph and nose dived into the ditch. The amazing part, neither horse was injured seriously and the trailer was not totaled. So maybe we don't even need safety chains.

Regards,
Ken
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Old 02-17-2010, 05:44 PM   #80
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Ken,

Thanks, I think it is good that everybody that has an interest in this topic share without worrying about retribution. We don't want to have folks afraid to post for emotional 'hurt feelings' reasons. I speak my mind, hope others do too and let the chips fall where they will. If people want to pick on me, so be it. I lose no sleep over it. Anybody that thinks this forum is a little 'spirited' should visit the Rv.net/forums and check in with the truck camper boys and girls. They get way into the topics, dig into their positions and never give up. This forum is a cake walk, with nice people being nice to each other. Very helpful most of the time.
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Old 02-17-2010, 06:55 PM   #81
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The people who have responded to this thread represent 100s of 1000s of miles of towing experience. They overwhelmingly recommend a sway control/eliminator hitch.

Listen to them! You will have a much more enjoyable, less white knuckle, trip if you do. When a semi blows by you at 70+ you will not have to change your undies at the next rest stop.

John
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:06 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w7ts View Post
...Well, I said that and I feel better...
i c...

so the real reason 4 posting is to FEEL better?

i OBJECT!

just kidding.

but calls for sensible, reasoned postings are...

INsensible and totally UNreasonable!

just kidding.

when the spooks go BOOOOO!

does it scare you?
__________

in other words, pictures and stories are ONLY scare tactics IF the viewer is scared by them.

accident pics, stories about crashes and so on, have never scared me and i seldom think about the posters motivations for sharing.

they are just pixels on a screen and typically PEAK my curiosity...

but then again real blood has never bothered me either.
___________

now, taking kens approach go back to the TEXT of the o.p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by THEPILL View Post

I will tow my Airstream with a 2007 Powerstoke diesel Crew cab 4x4.

It has the camper/towing package.

But no sway bars.

Is this required?

Is it a necessity?

Noone at the dealer even recommended it...
interpret as you like but the message i read in/from the above and WITHOUT any follow up details is...

-it's a BIG TRUCK...

-the op may not understand what 'sway bars' are...

-sway bars are NOT required or a necessity...
_______

however from other older threads by the same poster,

my recollection is that the op has towed a lotta horses or cattle and never felt the need for 'hitches or sway bars'...

and made several posts suggesting this rv/trailer stuff... 'must be pretty much the same, right?'

take a tour back into the early 'argosy threads for some details...

and decide youSELF...
_________

so then the early BRIEF answers roll in TO the original question, with just Y or N...

and some1 mentions wdh, the o.p. asks WHAT is that?

then the longer posts start, AND the attempts to splain things...

the o.p., still not on board asks...."does anyone tow withOUT one?"

then the debates and counterdebates....

i actually had a ONE line post (a record for me) but deleted it since it might have been interpreted as a SCARE tactic...

it wasn't a scare tactic and here it is again in total, the whole post'chalada...
__________

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...rol-17986.html
__________

the title and info just seemed to fit with the questioners TITLE here...

that thread has a LOT of spirited exchange, some name calling, humor and even some EXPERIMENTs...

to prove/disprove beliefs held by some and disputed by others...

NO blood was shed in that thread and we ALL lived happily ever after in cybertown...

of course THAT thread didn't start with a newer member asking a QUESTION, perhaps that's the issue here for some...

so perhaps the DEBATE and debaters should go THERE and start hammering again.

it's ok with me (and i now feel better too ken )
__________

but keep in mind some folks are even scared of clowns and santa...

and perceptions are reality, even when the perceptions are not shared by all and may be WACKY...

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:42 PM   #83
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Has anyone pointed out that sway control costs like $100 bucks extra or less? If you are buying a name brand weight distributing hitch (EZ Lift or Reese) the additional cost is really trivial.

I still think the original questioner was confusing truck sway bars with trailer sway control. I get the feeling he was a new Airstream owner not conversant with the fine points of hitch design and application.

If this is the case, he can't claim to be uninformed now lol. That is if this thread hasn't scared him off.
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Old 02-17-2010, 10:46 PM   #84
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lick frozen flag poles
porcupines are good to hug
no need for sway control
what could possibly go wrong
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