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Old 02-12-2010, 06:44 PM   #43
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Andy

I like low risk factors. I always use a WD/sway hitch when towing my 30 feet behind my one ton dually. I might stand alone here, but I don't respond well to scare tactics and feel that a higher level of distribution of information about risk can work better and acheive results. For those that do respond to scare tactics that is fine. They just don't work for me and tend to cause me to bristle. Showing pics of trailers on their side is certainly sensational. How many end on their side annually, from the total that are towed? How many on their sides were using the sway hitch? How many were not? Compared to drunk drivers that kill 25000 every year on the highways, I suspect 'on the side' trailer deaths are a very small percentage. Of course, only one accident that could be prevented is one too many, that is why I use sway control.


From our previous posts, some have a lifetime of towing without a WD/Sway hitch, always coming home just fine from every trip, never an issue with sway, that all ends one day in a catastrophic sway accident. You say you never know when it will happen. I agree.

A life time of poor eating habits ends in one quick non announced heart attack. One third of heart attack patients never get a second chance, never saw it coming. I don't really see the difference you do as it relates to scare tactics. Most people just don't worry about stuff until it happens. Then it IS too late. Scare tactics just don't work for most Americans. If they did we would all act differently.
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Old 02-12-2010, 08:15 PM   #44
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Old 02-13-2010, 01:22 AM   #45
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Andy

From our previous posts, some have a lifetime of towing without a WD/Sway hitch, always coming home just fine from every trip, never an issue with sway, that all ends one day in a catastrophic sway accident. You say you never know when it will happen. I agree.

Scare tactics just don't work for most Americans.
Scaring , has never been one of my objectives.

But, advising them of things they are not aware of, or in some cases that they care about, is what I strive to bring to light.

If I can save one person from have a loss of control accident, then I accomplished my goals.

If someone does care, then I don't care either.

Why is it, those that disagree with most everything regarding safe towing, always seem to have answers that only a very few agree with?

Disregarding safety, be it towing, crossing the street, climbing a small ladder, etc, to me, is plain "dumb".

Of course, you will never have that person admit, that tows, that they really didn't want to spend any money for a load equalizing hitch or sway control, but instead come up with an off the wall excuse, usually that no one knows what their talking about, except themselves.

Nah, insurance company information based on facts regarding loss of control, is, in their opinion, hogwash.

Frankly, I have reached a point, that if someone disregards safety issue, and busts up their Airstream because of that disregard, then WHOOPEE for them, as most owners follow good advice, and go for the safest thing they can.

Someone brought up seat belts. Why use those? They are, to some, who have no regard for safety, a pain in the neck.

As I understand it, not wearing a seat belt and getting in an auto accident, will give that person, far more than a pain in the neck.

Hooray for those that follow safety as best they can, and a big "BOO" for those who feel they are exempt from it, and safety issues couldn't possible apply to them.

How very sad, for that small group.

Andy
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Old 02-13-2010, 01:33 AM   #46
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Help

I enjoy helping people, that seek help, that want help and are thankful for help.

If someone doesn't need any help, in their opinion, for any reason regarding Airstreaming, great for them.

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Old 02-13-2010, 09:34 AM   #47
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Take a careful, objective, look at this debate and learn from the manner of argument and its correlations to positions taken.

Note that 'sway control' is not an either/or thing but a whole range of options and methods. (just like most things that involve vehicle handling)

Note that a particular option or method is seldom a qualifier for the assertions made here. (except when used to rebut in a 'reduce to the absurd' logical fallacy type argument point, it seems)

Note that there is no measure for sway control. There is no objective means anyone has offered that can be examined to qualify effectiveness or capability.

Note that even the desired outcomes of sway control asserted here are rather ambiguous.

Note the talk about "safety" rather than risk and think about the reality of the road.

Think about the range of options, from an HDT towing an Airstream to a VW Jetta (yes, those guys in Canada have run a Jetta TDI towing an Airstream up and down a mountain). Do both have the same needs for extra trailer control apparatus? What are the options between these two extremes and where is the line drawn - or is it a multitude of lines for many different options and methods?

A 'help recipe' is sometimes a necessary method for those unwilling or unable to do their own thinking. Let's hope those who visit here are a bit more willing to learn and to think critically. They can take advantage of help and assistance that enables their own understanding so they can make informed and effective decisions for themselves and their particular circumstances and needs.
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Old 02-13-2010, 09:41 AM   #48
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Andy,

You do bring a depth and span of wisdom to these forums and to each customer you serve in your facility. I do think you care about people that take unnecessary risks even though you might infer you don't. And I do think you hate to see AS or anybodys trailers laying on their sides on the highway. As to the price of a hitch, what is $750-3000 when most pepole have almost $50,000 invested in their tow vehicle and perhaps way more than that in the AS? It is faulty economics to try to save a few bucks on a hitch after dropping all that coin on the RV and tow vehicle. I hope you keep up the responses to peoples questions and enjoy your time in Hawaii. I enjoy reading your responses.
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Old 02-13-2010, 11:31 AM   #49
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How about a Reese pro series S/C? Will that work?
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Old 02-13-2010, 11:34 AM   #50
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I have been searching google and yahoo.......little to no info that I can find. I am looking for crash data involving Airstreams. I did find Andy's "Towing Myth's" article. I gleaned nothing usefull from it except the statement that "friction type sway control devices must be loosened in inclement weather or lose of control could result". Seems to me inclement weather might be when you would want some sway control. My position here is not to be arguementive. But so far the only reason given is driver comfort. And that is ok, less driver fatigue equels safety. But I see no provable positions given that make me think sway control devices are anything more than snake oil. The noted comfort factor being the exception.
Adios, John
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Old 02-13-2010, 11:58 AM   #51
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I see no provable positions given that make me think sway control devices are anything more than snake oil. The noted comfort factor being the exception.
Adios, John
I believe John's statement gives us a clear understanding why the small minority continue to run the roads without the safety concerns most of us have.

They really don't understand the mechanics, and physics, involved with the complex science of towing.
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Old 02-13-2010, 01:34 PM   #52
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There's an excellent article in Airstream Life this month about hitch safety where the author, Andy Thompson, references a 1947 flight manual called "Stick And Rudder". The article states that this manual helped to dispel a number of myths about flying by focusing on the physics and principles of aviation and is still in use today. The article provided me with a lot of insight, check it out.
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Old 02-13-2010, 03:25 PM   #53
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Bryan,

We all take risks everyday. We each have different levels of acceptable risks. I am not intersted in jumping out of a perfectly good airplane, many do it for recreation and see no excessive risk in doing it safely. Some tow without sway, some don't. I know your comments were not directed to me, but to be clear, all I was saying was the risk level is individual, not corporate. We don't all together decide risk levels that are acceptable. And, at least for me, scare tactics don't work. When some here posted the sensational pics of trailers on their sides, what caused it? A poor OEM receiver on a GM product that have been problematic in the past? Strong wind? A good hitch won't fix a bad receiver, how many 'on their side' trailers were towed by a one ton long bed dually, or a light duty SUV towing a heavy poorly load distributed trailer? How many were using a sway hitch, etc. There are so many variables to consider that if people on this forum want to scare me, then lets start with the tow vehicle, tires, suspension, speeds, an aftermarket Class V 17,000 pound receiver, wind, the Hensley or ProPride hitch 'cause the others are only friction, rain/snow 'no go' kind of good jugdments, only tow slowly, never tow downhill with a curve at the bottom, only disk brakes on the trailers, only the best controllers, only on Sunday mornings when traffic is light, and so on. Many many variables to consider and when I see the pics of a trailer on its side, how many were using the very best equipment starting with the tow vehicle, tires on it, and all the rest? I suspect deaths from poorly performing hitches or no sway hitches are less than 10 people a year at most; out of over 40,000 deaths on the highways annually from all causes. So if it is raining, you are going downhill with a curve at the bottom, you don't have disk brakes on the trailer, the trailer weight is heavy proportionally to the tow vehicle, traffic is heavy, trailer tires are not new, trailer brakes not sure the last time adjusted, and you don't have sway control or are not sure your hitch is really set up correctly, it is time to slow to a safe maneuvering speed, a speed at which you don't want to crash. Lower the risk factors, not for everybody, just for you in your situation. At the moment of a problem it is only you that can do anything about it.

There is a saying in aviation "it is better to be on the ground wishing you were flying, than to be in the air wishing you were on the ground." Once you have a problem towing, it doesn't matter who or what is debated here on this forum, only what you can do about it at the moment.
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Old 02-13-2010, 03:31 PM   #54
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Should I be involved in an accident, given today's legal climate, I would not be surprised if EVERYTHING, (including my choices of hitching devices), comes under scrutiny. That is reason enough for me to go ahead and spring for all the recommended stuff. In general, when I need to make a "safety" related decision, I've learned to ask myself the following question: How will it sound at the hearing?
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Old 02-13-2010, 04:22 PM   #55
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How about a Reese pro series S/C? Will that work?

?????????

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Old 02-13-2010, 07:09 PM   #56
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Note that there is no measure for sway control. There is no objective means anyone has offered that can be examined to qualify effectiveness or capability.


This sounds like too fine a point, far too fine.

Is it objective to drive the same rig with and without anti-sway/WDH?

By the same token, is it objective to compare one type of hitch rigging with another?

Is Dodge just kidding me when I am told that 350# of TW requires WDH?

And that anti-sway control is recommended on top of it?

Was that entire post an attempt at being disingenuous?
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