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bluvalley · 03-01-2006, 11:08 AM

This is a very interesting discussion with more impressive insight and knowledge than I could have imagined. I've been reading this particular thread since the beginning because I'm also interested in the Ridgeline. But alas, I think my 2003 22 ft CCD just might be the breaking point. I currently drive a Nissan Titan (which I love) but as a daily driver it is a HUGE gas hog. I am lucky to break 15 MPG even on the highway (without the AS attached). So I would like to downsize eventually.

There are a number of reasons the Ridgeline is in the running. First, my nephew is a mechanic for Honda and he insists the Ridgeline will work for me. Even though he and his dealer have no experience with any of their customers pulling 4500 lbs. Secondly, I was in a campground last October in Lake Placid and just a few spots over was a Ridgeline pulling an SOB which was in my estimation at least 28 feet long. I never got a chance to speak to the owner, but there it was.

The WD hitch warning is a serious reason to be cautious, but in the meantime I'll continue to monitor and wait to see more real world experience before making any decsions.

Thanks for providing such great information.

Bluvalley

davidh · 03-01-2006, 12:59 PM

2air that was very good of you to post the hitch mounting attachment, it sure gave me a better understanding of type of hitch and how they mount it. They use three 12mm bolts per side and two 10mm bolts to mount reciever to hitch frame bar. they torque the 12mm bolts to 59 ibf-ft that relates to 4.9 foot lbs and the two 10mm bolts that mounts the reciever to the hitch frame bar, and they are torqued to 34 ibf-ft and that relates to about 2.8 foot lbs. And I also woud be willing to bet that the bolts are a grade 5 and not a grade 8 bolt. Now I understand why they do not recommend WD Hitch, I feel that it is made to pull a two place trailer or a boat trailer, seems awfull light duty to me. I'm not knocking Honda eaither, its just that this unit is a car trying to enter a market were it dose not belong, and there is a very fine line on this unit, to be used as so. I for starters would not trust that hitch to pull anything but light duty trailers.

2airishuman · 03-01-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leipper

"The problem is whether the tow vehicle in mind (Honda Ridgeline) can tow a 16' CCD with reasonable safety and driver comfort.

But that really doesn't address the real problem either: whether the tow vehicle in mind (Honda Ridgeline) can tow a 16' CCD with reasonable safety and driver comfort.

That says that much of the discussion here is about the second order issues, not whether the tow vehicle in mind (Honda Ridgeline) can tow a 16' CCD with reasonable safety and driver comfort.

hi toasty, leipper and others

it's funny how folks read threads...the words are right on the screen....but seen in so many ways....

from my view the question/real problem was never 'can the ridgeline tow a bambi'....
and i don't think anyone has suggested it cannot....

the question posted by toasty was regarding the value of w/d, what does it do besides redistribute wt, and so on.....

which lead to the issue of why honda advises against w/d.

toasty was trying to be responsible by doing a weigh in.....providing numbers....
so the rest of us could offer analysis of his data....

i've offered my thinking on the numbers and some info on the w/d issues for the honda and vw design....

it's be suggested that makers design/engineer "pick up trucks" to carry most of the load on the rear....
and that seems true....
but the honda isn't really a pickup truck...by any parameter except having a bed...and a big grill

seems to me the exchange on these issue is useful.

having someone who actually uses w/d with the ridgeline is also useful to toasty's orignal question....

there are others here towing with the ridgeline...and from what i've read in there posts....they aren't using w/d systems......maybe there are reading this too....and thinking about the issue.

there are many factors that SHOULD impact how each of us select the t.v. and equip it for the task of towing....

toasty is wisely balancing all the great things about the honda, and how it will be used most of the time.....while trying for the safest towing experience....

your initial question toasty....
regarding what w/d systems do besides redistribute wt (which is REALLY important with heavy loads)
has not been adressed in this thread....and i sure would like to offer my thoughts....eventually.

kudos, bro.
cheers
2air'

the other important statement/assertion in this thread....is in post #5....and wow do i disagree with the leipper on many of these statements....

davidh · 03-01-2006, 01:31 PM

2air, your absolutely right, I by no means am not knocking Toasty and his TV. So if I came off that way I apologize to Toasty. As 2air stated the WD will take weight off the ball and moves the weight forward thru frame to front axle, and the way the hitch is mouted to TV, I feel that there is not enough mounting surface to handle the load shift, I think that is why they do not want to use a WD system for that reason, just my thoughts.

Toasty's Dad · 03-01-2006, 02:22 PM

Hello Davidh,

No offense taken from anybody. I'm here to learn, and all opinions of the vehicle's capabilities are welcome.

I have no particular pride of ownership about the Honda anyway; I save all that for my beloved Toaster.

I know of at least a coupla people who've towed a 19' with a Ridgeline and a WD for over a year with no reported hitch problems - at least one is the Honda stock hitch. And the 19 foot is another thousand heavier than my 16'.

However, I'll keep a careful eye on the hitch mounting and will inspect frequenly after the WD is installed.

jon

bryanl · 03-01-2006, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2airishuman

the question posted by toasty was regarding the value of w/d, what does it do besides redistribute wt, and so on.....

This clarifies a few things. If you want to peg a specific value on something that everyone can agree upon, you are indeed going to have to also agree upon the currency. In that light, the search for a universally accepted definition for pickup truck starts to make sense. It also appears that we are going to have to come up with some sort of measure of how 'pickup trucky' differing kinds of tow vehicles are so we can have a number to put into our value equation.

Then there is the problem of defining what we mean by weight distributing hitch and how we are going to consider the effect of stresses and torques on various parts of a vehicle and how those influence other things than load sharing.

This, of course, leads into being able to come up with some actual value numbers for the difference between various hitches, for example a Hensley and a Dual Cam. That would answer the ongoing question by being able to compare the hitch cost with its value.

This does get a bit facetious but I hope it does point out that matters of value are often very personal and often very subjective. People choose different tow vehicles because they have differing tastes in how they like to travel and what they feel makes for a comfortable drive for their rig.

To respect other's choices, I think we need to be a bit careful in how we express our own. We need to make sure we understand our own bias and have a good perspective on what is opinion and what is not and by what evidence. We need to maintain a proper perspective for ourselves before we can contribute effective experience and knowledge for others to use.

2airishuman · 03-01-2006, 08:03 PM

hey toasty....

i forgot to answer your question about the rabbit in the upper left corner....
i agree it cracks me up everytime i see it....so i use it.

there is a g.b. shaw quote....
“If you’re going to tell people the truth, you’d better make them laugh or they’ll kill you.”

that's oolong........the most famous rabbit on the planet......
besides bugs, the energizer and others....
sadly oolong is now pushing up carrots.....

you can read about him here.......

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oolong_the_rabbit

and wouldn't ya just know it......

his fame came from providing a forum answer for a particular sort of post....
not the one just above.....

cheers all and happy campin'
2air'

wahoonc · 03-01-2006, 08:41 PM

Hey 2'air,
Considering what goes on around here sometimes...maybe this one would be more appropriate

Aaron

2airishuman · 03-01-2006, 09:09 PM

aaron.....

what do ya think is under my hat!!!

i love it....some of those photos are just so d4mn funny!

and here is an absolutely hilarious rabbit site...with its own blog......

http://www.hopperhome.com/

cheers
2air'

Toasty's Dad · 03-09-2006, 12:25 PM

2006 Honda Ridgeline PU, 2004 Int'l CCD 16' Bambi.

After much advice and rumination:

Reese Hi-Performance WD hitch with 600 lb bars. Adjusted to 2nd last link on the chain (toward the "loose" end). Hitch guy hadda weld the trunnion chain snap thingies onto the frame due to location of LP tanks/cover.

Drawtite Friction Sway control.

Ride perhaps(?) smoother on the low-speed drive back home from the shop, with porpoising perhaps(?) eliminated - don't remember if I experienced it on the way over. Friction control popping and creaking very loudly, like the soundeffects of a wooden ship in a storm. This could be cause the ball ends were dry - hope lubing them helps.

Back to the CAT scale to attempt perfect balance.

THANKS TO ALL!
jon

Inland RV Center, In · 03-09-2006, 01:13 PM

Jon.

Friction sway controls are far "INFERIOR" to torsion sway controls.

Additionally, if you read the very "fine" print, you will learn that when your towing in inclement weather conditions, that you "MUST" release the amount of friction!!!!!

Hello.

I would like to have, if possible, "MORE" sway control during bad weather, certainly not less.

Torsion sway controls, "are not" affected by any weather conditions, frictions are, by "all" adverse weather conditions.

Most dealers don't like to install torsion sway controls, simply because it requires that you must know what your doing. Since most of them don't, they then pawn off the friction type, because any dummy can do it.

Andy

bryanl · 03-09-2006, 02:37 PM

Andy, what is a good example of a "torsion sway control" hitch? Are you thinking Dual Cam or something else?

Inland RV Center, In · 03-09-2006, 02:39 PM

Bryan.

Reese "dual cam".

Andy

overlander63 · 03-09-2006, 08:21 PM

I noticed somewhere in all the posts above, a question was asked, and never answered that I saw. The tongue weight is high (15%) so that when you use the weight distribution system as intended, it will shift about 5% of that weight back to the trailer axle, and the front tow vehicle axle. If you set up your WD system perfectly, your compensated (using the WD system) tongue weight should be right at 10%. Hopefully Inland Andy can chime in, and verify that for us.

Inland RV Center, In · 03-09-2006, 08:55 PM

Terry.

A tongue weight of 15 percent, because of todays heavier suspended tow vehicles, is a good thing. Ten percent today, I feel, is not enough.

When it comes to "load equalizing hitches", the majic word is "PROPER".

You must have a "proper" rated hitch. Not to heavy and not to light.
You must have that hitch "properly" installed.
You must also "properly" adjust the hitch, so that the required amount of stress is placed on it.

When the above conditions are in place, 1/3 of the tongue/truck weight will be moved back the the trailer axle or axles. 2/3 of the tongue/trunk weight will be forced forward to the tow vehicle.

You can actually correct an excess weight condition, in the back or trunk, of a tow vehicle, by moving some of it to the front axle. That is why it's important to weigh the tow vehicle, "READY FOR TRAVEL", without the trailer being attached.

After the trailer is attached, and the proper rated, properly installed hitch, is properly adjusted, the tow vehicle weight distribution can amazingly be corrected, for most excess rear end weight.

These tests were all performed by myself, when I was with Caravanner Insurance Company, confirmed and duplicated.

In fact my tow vehicle, because of the excess trunk weight, and having air shocks and air bags installed, handled like a wild squirrel, without the trailer, but because I could adjust the air pressures as I drove, I could always keep the tow vehicle level. When the Airstream was going to be attached, the air shock pressure was dropped to 20 psi and the air bag pressure was dropped to 15 psi. Part of the trunk overload condition, was cause by me having 65 gallon fuel capacity, and a bunch of tools so when I visited a dealer I would not have to depend on them for tools. Many times I had more tools in my trunk than the dealer had. The cars were always large size Buicks.

My total rig weight was 14,500 pounds. That is considerable weight for a 31 foot Airstream and a large size car. By the way, that same rig, had a top speed of 115 MPH, which was captured on film. The speedmeter was calibrated along with a calibrated air speed indicator.

Trailer sway conditions are not pleasant and can for most part, be avoided, "IF" the rigging is correct.

Additionally, we also proved that overload springs on a tow vehicle, are an absolute "HAZARD".

Make the torsion hitch do the work, not overloads. Additionally, torsion sway controls are always superior to friction type sway controls.

Again, the correct weight shifting ratios are 1/3 back to the trailer, and 2/3's to the tow vehicle. Keep in mind however, that when the tongue weight is moved, some of the truck weight, "can also be moved".

These comments will most likely create all sorts of disagreements.

My suggestion, to those that may disagree, do the exhaustive testing yourself, and report the weights, the air pressures, the handling opinions of those that are in the trailer at 60 to 70 miles an hour, as well as those that are witnesses in the tow vehicle.

Andy

2airishuman · 03-09-2006, 09:05 PM

hi hitchin' buds......

terry i'm gonna jump in here so andy has someone to slap silly when he's ready.....

w/d does not lower tongue weight.......only moving mass inside/around the trailer will lower tongue weight....it is near 15% and toasty suggested he was simulating a full water tank....getting it to that level....

if toasty gets full load of lp, full tank of water, full stock of cheetos, and so on....and the tongue wt. is 15%, he can only lower the tongue weight/mass by removing things from the trailer or redistributing the packing....

many of us confuse actual tongue load and what w/d does to it......

i'm working on a really good way to explain this with pictures and no math....

i'll post it soon....

the tongue pushes straight down on the ball.....at a given load....

this weight increases at the rear t.v. axle...by an amt related to the distance from axle to ball......a simple lever arm...

for toasty that was approx 910lbs......at the rear axle...for his 540 tongue wt.....while his front was lightened by 70lbs......

the w/d or spring bars function to relocate the tongue mass more evenly....reduce the 1000lbs on the rear while adding to the front...

but the tongue still weights the same!!....just now it is spread over the axles differently...when the w/d is loaded up...

so if your tongue is over limit or over percentage.....w/d doesn't fix or reduce this load....but it does redistribute it on the 3 axle systems...2 t.v. and trailers....

on an advanced level of understanding....as i learnt' it....the tongue forces actually increase as part of how w/d functions.....and i'm gonna try to 'splain this eventually.....

unless andy says i'm full of wash........

cheers
2air'

bryanl · 03-09-2006, 09:52 PM

Quote:

i'm working on a really good way to explain this with pictures and no math....

Just think of a long board supported by three balloons and a row of beer mugs on top. The balloons are your axles and the mugs your load.

You should be able to take it from there!

2airishuman · 03-09-2006, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leipper

Just think of a long board supported by three balloons and a row of beer mugs on top. The balloons are your axles and the mugs your load. You should be able to take it from there!

well that's close bryan

and using an old fashion church key is close too......

but not everyone drinks beer......

so i'm working on imagery that will be more universal.....
and a simple trial that everyone can do, and will remember.

cheers
2air'

bryanl · 03-10-2006, 08:42 AM

There are two ways to approach any idea. One is to find fault and look for reason to toss it. The other is to pick it up as a starting point and adapt it to particular needs and uses.

The latter is often much more educational and entertaining but the former seems to be more often invoked.

norsim · 03-10-2006, 09:01 AM

The reason that it is reccomended that friction sway control be disabled on rain slick roads is to prevent understeer. The dual cam can also cause understeer but there is no practical way to disable it. I will not argue that friction sway control is as good as dual cam but after using them for over 30 years on dozens of trailer/tow vehicle combinations I am sure they help prevent sway IF they are adjusted properly. For some reason most people do not want to tighten them down enough.