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Old 04-06-2010, 12:28 PM   #29
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Ken,

Here's some shots of the tread wear:
passenger front


'nother angle


compared to the 'flat' wear on the rear


This looks like pretty severe 'feathering', no?
'FREY Truck Service' in Buffalo, inspected front end about 2,500 miles ago (with new tires), and said everything was 'fine', except for toe- which he adjusted...

I agree with you, these tires were squirrelly at first, but I think I'm beyond that now..
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Old 04-06-2010, 12:33 PM   #30
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I tow with the Michelin LTX AT2's and Hensley combo and never experienced what you are describing, Joe. I have about 10,000 on the tires and have been towing with those tires installed since they were new. In fact they have performed and worn beautifully.
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Old 04-06-2010, 01:31 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by w7ts View Post
Was the hitch set up like in this example?
Too Funny!!!!
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:12 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by finalcutjoe View Post
...This looks like pretty severe 'feathering', no?...
YES! that's a significant amt of feathering for just a few 1000 miles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by finalcutjoe View Post
... inspected front end about 2,500 miles ago (with new tires), and said everything was 'fine', except for toe- which he adjusted...
NOW we're getting 2 the bottom of this.

were the OLD/previous tires wearing FUNNY?

if not, the need for ANY alignment adjustment is questionable.

now it appears the toe IN is over done or camber is off.

did they do the alignment with the trailer attached? (of course not)

the point being normally the factory setting takes into account the LOAD RANGE for the vehicle...

an idie' shop might have another view or use the wrong NORMAL (+/- range)

especially once the additional towing load is applied.
_________

it's never a great idea to REalign at the same time new tires are mounted, UNLESS there are pronounced wear patterns or PULLING...

after balance/mount and a brief period of break in (to burn off the tire mold release goop), THAT's the time for alignment tweaks...

but again ONLY if wear or pulling is an issue.
___________

clearly front end components COULD be suddenly worn but this bit of recent history suggests the alignment was buggered.


Quote:
Originally Posted by finalcutjoe View Post
...these tires were squirrelly at first, but I think I'm beyond that now..
no doubt.

it does make sense to wait till u are home to deal with a known/reliable mechanic but the WEAR is only gonna get worse.

rotation f/b would spread the stress over 4 tires, but they'd all be feathered then.

one could also back OFF the w/d a bit and reduce front tire loads, but that might only make handling WORSE...

it might be wise to take the rig to a national chain (gy/fstone/bigO/discount) NOW and have the alignment RE done...

using a big chain means the shops near home would have those records and could REvisit the issue again for the same $.

geeze, hate 2 see new tires chewed up already.

safe travels
2air'
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Old 04-06-2010, 06:17 PM   #33
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My tires do not and never have looked like that, so I'm guessing something is out of alignment.

Ken
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Old 04-06-2010, 08:16 PM   #34
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I tow with BFG Mud Terrains (Load range E) with big squishy tread blocks and I get zero sway. I really don't think tires are the issue.

I really think something in the rear suspension is loose and/or worn out. The front end may also be the cause, however. I am quite certain that the Hensley is exacerbating the condition because it is doing its job and not letting the trailer sway and all these forces are then transmitted to the trucks suspension. If something is worn out or loose on the rear end (or front end), its going to let you know it. I'd take a hard look at the leaf spring bushings, track bar bushings, etc.
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Old 04-06-2010, 10:42 PM   #35
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Maybe you bought the wrong tires?

Hi, Joe. Here's the deal, as far as I can see in your pictures; The tires are wearing normal, for the kind of tread they have. First lets look at the tread blocks. On the top of the tire, if you run your hand across the tread, towards the front of your vehicle, your hand should glide rather smoothly. Then if you run your hand across the same tire in the opposite direction, [from front to rear] on the top of the tire, you will feel your finger jumping over the "Lipped up tread". This is caused by brakeing, and is normal. Now look at the bottom of the tire and the tread; [picture this] With the vehicle going in a forward direction, with the brakes applied, It pushes the tread blocks back and wears the front edge off of each block. Now with the front edge of the tread blocks worn and not the back because it was pushed down, this causes the tire to feather. [or lip up]

These tires do this more because of the non-connected blocks of tread. [lip up] For example: on my Lincoln I chose the Goodyear Tires over the Michelins because of the separate tread blocks on the Michelin versus the more connected tread on the Goodyears. [for my size and style vehicle] Notice the steer tires on the big rigs are a continuosly connected tread and they will never lip up. Since you have a four wheel drive truck and want aggressive tread for mud and snow or what ever, this is what you get. If you don't really need an aggressive tread, you should find tires that, at least, have a continous tread on the outer edges.

The aggressive tread design tires need to be rotated much more often to try and keep them squared off. [this is the nature of the beast]

If the feather edging is felt from side to side on the tire, by running your hand across the tire from inside to outside or vise versa, then you have an alignment problem. I can't see this in your pictures.

As for the cause of sway, I can't help you on this. It could just be the tires flexing on the tread blocks. When these tires are about half worn out, the tread blocks will have a lot less flex in them. Good Luck in what ever you do.
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Old 04-10-2010, 10:33 AM   #36
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maximum weight distribution, including shortening the spring bar stack at the spring bar connector... you can see there is NO flex in the spring bars, and there's a fairly severe angle...



This made a significant improvement in the towing performance... but still not returned to my previous experience.

Weights at MID (squirrelly performance setting):
3580 ST/5400 DR/8490 TR

Weights at MAX
3760 ST/5060 DR/8640 TR

HiHo', you're exactly right... less than 200lb difference on the steer axle made a HUGE difference in tracking/steering...

I'll be having the steering/bushings/springs/shocks/ends/etc.. inspected this week, and will update

Tx all
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Old 04-10-2010, 12:41 PM   #37
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hi fc'

looking back at the only view of your FULL set up here and looking at the NOW picture i see issues...

here's the old close up...

Click image for larger version

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from this post (#575)...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tml#post568849

comparing the 2 pics there is CLEARLY some flex in the w/d bars on the older photo...

so SOMETHING has changed in your haha set up.

((the rig is ANGLED in the current photo so perspective is altered some...))

in fact i think you need to START over with some of the basic installation and initial adjustments...

1. you've been using the TOP HOLE on the rear strut bracket attachment.

the struts are supposed to be LEVEL/parallel with the A frame, not SLOPING UPWARDS as your do....

i've not seen ANY modern stream for which the LOWER hole wasn't most PARALLEL.

some folks use the middle hole but the TOP hole is clearly not ideal.

see the pic from the haha manual...

Click image for larger version

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also note in that photo shows 3 holes showing on the lower jack extension tubes...

YOUR NEW pic shows the pins in the LAST HOLE...

this a NO NO, gotta be AT LEAST 2 holes showing...

we covered this in the haha thread, including a QUESTION asked specifically by you (post 569)...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tml#post567780

again this is a SETUP issue that needs to be UNdone and moved back to the correct 3 HOLE position.

i suspect you did this HOPING to get MORE LEVERAGE from the w/d bars...

but sean replied WHY NOT 2 use the last hole.

and moving the rear STRUT attachment to the lowest hole on the jack/bracket, will IMPROVE the w/d bar leverage some...

now in order to use that LOWER HOLE in the bracket, the STRUTS need to be LOOSENED completely....

((support the hitch head on something, or hookup and use the A frame jack for support))

once the strut is in the lower/3rd hole on the jack bracket, REtension the struts...

and WHILE YOU ARE AT IT...

RE check the bracket placement is it REALLY 25 inches ((+/- 1/2 inch))

Click image for larger version

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over time it's not uncommon to tweak 1 thing, get a negative result, then tweak something else and so on...

eventually resulting in significant variations from IDEAL...

your haha may be in that zone.
__________

scale readings...

well, 2000 lb difference on the TV axles is huge, crazy huge...

again looking back, your w/d has never been optimal...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tml#post568849

the ~1400 lbs difference reported back there is still too much.

we don't SEE your TV axle loads UNhitched, and the goal is to RESTORE front axle loads...

was the 3280 lbs even CLOSE to base axle loading?

my guess is 2-400 lbs UNDER loaded even back then.

the other HUGE ISSUE NOW IS....

the rig weighs nearly 1,700 lbs MORE than last reported...

isn't the burb's gcwr somewhere around 17,000 lbs?

at the current 17,470 lbs u are OVER loaded.....DING DING DING

both the gCvwr and gvwr (burb) have been exceeded...

my guess is the gAwr has been topped as well (especially the drive axle)
___________

so NOW, yes most definitely the 2000 lb difference will make for totally squirrelly steering control.

i'm gonna guess it as ALWAYS been less than ideal, but you adapted to that looser feel until NOW...
___________

its also possible a DEEPER drop stinger is needed, this allows MORE RAISING and wt transfer to happen, while not taking the trailer past LEVEL...
___________

time to get out the haha manual, and RE read the ultimate haha user's guide bro!

and it's also time to throw the wife n kids OVER BOARD or put the rig on a diet...

cheers
2air'
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Old 04-10-2010, 05:00 PM   #38
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I'll add one thing to this discussion, too. All of the problems 2air mentioned are serious issues to be explored. BUT in addition to what he said, I still suspect a receiver hitch problem.

The lack of adequate weight distribution to the front axle, the squirrely handling, the odd tire wear, could be explained by a cracked or loose receiver. This could result in the receiver flexing rather than transferring weight properly.

I know it's a new receiver but something could be wrong with it just the same. I'd give that receiver a very careful look over with a flashlight, checking for cracks, rust lines (indicating a crack), loose bolts, or incorrect mounting.

Whether or not my theory proves true, 2air is right. Messing with the Hensley's configuration beyond recommended specs will result in problems. You did the right thing to weigh the rig. The second step is to take the necessary actions that the weights show you need.
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Old 04-11-2010, 02:52 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
hi fc'

looking back at the only view of your FULL set up here and looking at the NOW picture i see issues...

here's the old close up...

Attachment 99947

from this post (#575)...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tml#post568849

comparing the 2 pics there is CLEARLY some flex in the w/d bars on the older photo...

so SOMETHING has changed in your haha set up.

((the rig is ANGLED in the current photo so perspective is altered some...))
2Air,

The old pic is right after installation (note the beautiful orange finish), before even taking to scales... where I learned the pretty presentation was altogether inadequate at transferring weight...

2005 Suburban 2500 (no hitch, full tank, no cargo, no passengers):
3500 ST/3260 DR

and on that configuration... I'd define that as 'MID' weight distribution setting:
3280 ST/4600 DR/7940 TR

Loading for travel, only exacerbates the insufficient weight transfer...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post

in fact i think you need to START over with some of the basic installation and initial adjustments...

1. you've been using the TOP HOLE on the rear strut bracket attachment.

the struts are supposed to be LEVEL/parallel with the A frame, not SLOPING UPWARDS as your do....

i've not seen ANY modern stream for which the LOWER hole wasn't most PARALLEL.

some folks use the middle hole but the TOP hole is clearly not ideal.

see the pic from the haha manual...

Attachment 99949
Bottom and middle placement, looked less 'parallel' than top... go figure?
I'll post some pix...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
also note in that photo shows 3 holes showing on the lower jack extension tubes...

YOUR NEW pic shows the pins in the LAST HOLE...

this a NO NO, gotta be AT LEAST 2 holes showing...

we covered this in the haha thread, including a QUESTION asked specifically by you (post 569)...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tml#post567780

again this is a SETUP issue that needs to be UNdone and moved back to the correct 3 HOLE position.

i suspect you did this HOPING to get MORE LEVERAGE from the w/d bars...

but sean replied WHY NOT 2 use the last hole.

and moving the rear STRUT attachment to the lowest hole on the jack/bracket, will IMPROVE the w/d bar leverage some...

now in order to use that LOWER HOLE in the bracket, the STRUTS need to be LOOSENED completely....

((support the hitch head on something, or hookup and use the A frame jack for support))

once the strut is in the lower/3rd hole on the jack bracket, REtension the struts...
Yes, but Sean's recommendation was to avoid potential "hooking up" between the spring-bar bracket, and frame bracket... with it reefed all the way up like this, it's well beyond possible hook-up

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post

and WHILE YOU ARE AT IT...

RE check the bracket placement is it REALLY 25 inches ((+/- 1/2 inch))

Attachment 99948
Verified, bolts good, specs OK.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
over time it's not uncommon to tweak 1 thing, get a negative result, then tweak something else and so on...

eventually resulting in significant variations from IDEAL...

your haha may be in that zone.
__________

scale readings...

well, 2000 lb difference on the TV axles is huge, crazy huge...

again looking back, your w/d has never been optimal...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...tml#post568849

the ~1400 lbs difference reported back there is still too much.

we don't SEE your TV axle loads UNhitched, and the goal is to RESTORE front axle loads...

was the 3280 lbs even CLOSE to base axle loading?

my guess is 2-400 lbs UNDER loaded even back then.

the other HUGE ISSUE NOW IS....

the rig weighs nearly 1,700 lbs MORE than last reported...

isn't the burb's gcwr somewhere around 17,000 lbs?

at the current 17,470 lbs u are OVER loaded.....DING DING DING

both the gCvwr and gvwr (burb) have been exceeded...

my guess is the gAwr has been topped as well (especially the drive axle)
Those numbers above were 'showroom setup' (i.e. empty truck, no passengers, no fluids, no cargo)
My +17k GCW readings are prior to a two week excursion, with the whole fam, and all the fixins'

Besides, my definition of the 80/20 rule means 20% safety margin over vehicle GCWR

Drive axle is within rating at 5500lbs... you can see I'm not anywhere close to steer axle re-load, unless I put those spring bars into a sleeper-hold...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman View Post
___________

so NOW, yes most definitely the 2000 lb difference will make for totally squirrelly steering control.

i'm gonna guess it as ALWAYS been less than ideal, but you adapted to that looser feel until NOW...
___________

its also possible a DEEPER drop stinger is needed, this allows MORE RAISING and wt transfer to happen, while not taking the trailer past LEVEL...
___________

time to get out the haha manual, and RE read the ultimate haha user's guide bro!

and it's also time to throw the wife n kids OVER BOARD or put the rig on a diet...

cheers
2air'
Well not 'overboard', maybe just move 'em to a "chaser vehicle"...

BUT WAIT... there's MORE...

rluhr... I went over the receiver with a fine toothed flashlight and torque wrench, and it all checked-out

BUT, take a look at the amount of play in the shank... I wonder how much spring bar setting that neutralizes...





I've never used a 'bent-pin', but check this out:







There appears nearly as much play in the 'x'-axis (side to side) as well...

That's the harden-steel REESE sleeve, and it's deformed enough to keep me from getting it out (i.e. POUNDING it from behind with a length of #3 rebar and a hammer)... So I don't know if it's the receiver or the sleeve... I think contact with a REESE rep is in order...

So I've gone from the OEM receiver, that completely deformed under the mighty weight of the 'stream...
to a beefy Cl.V, that appears to be all show...

is there NOTHING in my kingdom that is a MATCH for this MIGHTY MAMMOTH??
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Old 04-11-2010, 03:08 PM   #40
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good pics fc'

and the list of issues continues.

that's a LOTTA SLOP at the receiver.

a 3 way combo of POOR insert sizing (length and width and height)

is there that much SIDE2SIDE slop in it too?

another reason for funky control.
_________

it's a wonder the entire thing hasn't exploded already...

clearly a testament to your driving prowess...

or proof that even a badly set up haha can tame an over loaded rig with a mutant receiver...

cheers
2air'
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Old 04-11-2010, 03:19 PM   #41
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If the hitch has nearly an inch of slop in the x direction at that short of a distance, that translates into at least a foot or more of allowable side to side movement of the trailer, at the axles before the hensley can even START doing its job. That Reese hitch could be be the sole source of your problem.
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Old 04-11-2010, 03:36 PM   #42
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clearly a testament to your driving prowess...
... I'd rather be lucky, than good...
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