Ball Height Question

[Dawgfan]

Get an appropriate drop shank to lower the ball mount. I had to do that when I went from a 1/2 ton pickup to a 3/4 ton pickup.
I ordered from Trailer Hitches, trailer hitch bike racks, and more - HitchSource.com

[henw]

I apologize for belaboring this issue, but, depending on who you talk to the advice varies greatly. I'm trying to set my equalizer up according to their instructions. They call for setting the ball height 3/16" higher than the inside coupler height for every 100# tongue weight. For my unit that works out to almost 1 3/4". I was assuming they meant top of ball height. But, their tech has emailed me that they measure ball height at the base. Doing this will put the top of the ball several inches above the level of the inside top of the coupler once I add allowance for tongue weight. Does that sound right?

[Inland RV Center, In]

Originally Posted by henw

I apologize for belaboring this issue, but, depending on who you talk to the advice varies greatly. I'm trying to set my equalizer up according to their instructions. They call for setting the ball height 3/16" higher than the inside coupler height for every 100# tongue weight. For my unit that works out to almost 1 3/4". I was assuming they meant top of ball height. But, their tech has emailed me that they measure ball height at the base. Doing this will put the top of the ball several inches above the level of the inside top of the coupler once I add allowance for tongue weight. Does that sound right?

Sounds like instructions to hook up a hay wagon, certainly far from correct for a travel trailer.

Logic and the laws of physics clearly spell out how it must be done.

Bottom line is "everything" must be level, and the hitch must do it's job. Therefore the ball height must be correct, the hitch rating must be correct, the hitch must be installed correctly and the hitch must be adjusted correctly.

Andy

[LI Pets]

Originally Posted by tphan

Interesting discussion here! I would love to be able to comply with the advised height setting for the ball on my hitch- but don't know how to. The set-up won't allow me to get lower than about 22", mounted on my Suburban 3/4 ton. What can I do? Thanks!

I had the same issue, on my first trip looked like I was going uphill.

Stopped at a RV shop and picked up a 10" drop shank, then I pick the correct height.

So you need to shell out $150

[tphan]

Thanks, LIPets and Dawgfan- will check with Hitchsource. I can understand HenW's confusion here, with the advice to set the ball LOWER than the tongue socket. Maybe I'm mis-reading that advice? My own common sense would tell me to set the ball height a bit higher to allow for the inevitable sag that will occur, or at least at the same height. If the ball is indeed supposed to be set lower than the tongue socket, can someone explain the reason for this to a simpleton like myself?? After everything is loaded, hitched up, and W/D chains tensioned, is the goal not to have the trailer sitting nearly exactly parallel with the ground, AND have the tow vehicle sitting as it did before the trailer tongue pushed the rear end down? Sorry to also belabor this but just want CLEAR, experienced advice so we can tow safely. Thanks!!

[tphan]

hi again- just wanted to thank Dawgfan for the tip on Hitchsource.com, I ordered a 5.62" drop shank from them for only $74 including shipping. The "standard" shank-thing that came with my Curt W/D hitch was a 2" drop, so this gets me almost 4" more which will indeed do the trick. Hitchsource had a big selection of those things, with all kinds of different lengths and drops. I got #17120. Also hope to hear from some of you regarding Andy's advice to initially set the hitch-ball LOWER than the coupler- which seems counter-intuitive to me, if I'm understanding his advice correctly. Have a good one.

[Yooper]

Glad to see this thread returned to its original purpose! Unfortunately, no one moved the earlier discussion of whether or not to use a WDH with a Honda Ridgeline to tow vehicles, or where ever it would be appropriate, and I have some updated input from a Honda engineer that I thought would interest you.

First, I did buy the Reese WDH and set it up with 550 springbars and had a great 3700 mile trip loaded for camping with my 16' Bambi. I reported this under tow vehicles in this forum and under weight distributing hitches in the Honda Ridgeline Owner's forum. The latter immediately sparked a rebuke from a Honda engineer. Thought you would find his reply interesting:

"I will try to offer this information without sounding condescending or disrespectful:

Honda has a staff of engineers that specialize in vehicle dynamics. There are members with advanced degrees including a specialist with a PhD vehicle dynamics. (This is the same group that developed the cooperative chassis control on the SH4WD system for the 2007 MDX.) These are the experts that have judged a WDH hitch as potentially dangerous device and should not be used. Even if these devices are set-up on a perfectly level surface, the moment that is produced on the tow vehicle is not constant and is a function of the gross profile of the road surface you are driving. You will experience a dynamic load condition that constantly varies during your trip depending on the road profile you are driving over. If a WDH is set properly, with a minimum amount of load removed from the rear axle (to avoid dynamic instability), a WDH hitch can reduce the amount of “sag” on the tow vehicle. The primary problem with these devices is they are specifically promoted for this purpose. Most users attribute the improved stability from these devices which results from the damping nature they produce from the yaw friction induced due to their design. The tendency for the non-technical user is to set the WDH hitch up to achieve a level visual appearance on the tow vehicle. This may remove too much weight from the rear axle and cause the stability issues which may result in a crash. The Ridgeline Front and Rear GAWR were designed, engineered and tested to handle the necessary towing loads without a WDH. Further, the rear brakes are appropriately sized for the increased braking forces caused by a load on the bed or a large tongue load created by towing a trailer. Increasing the front axle loading with a WDH for braking purposes is completely unfounded and unnecessary. The origin of WDH dates back to the late 60’s and early 70’s when most American families were towing recreational vehicles with passenger cars. Passenger cars lacked the proper brake sizing, front to rear brake proportioning, and Rear GAWR to handle a large travel trailer. The WDH allowed people to compensate for these weaknesses and tow larger trailers with their full size station wagons and passenger cars.

Honda’s WDH recommendations were made by engineers – not by lawyers. The owners manual is a legal document due to our litigious country and political climate. The owners manual is drafted by a group of professional writers that are usually better linguists than a band of engineers that usually can’t spell. A legal staff also reviews the owners manual because they have a technical background in law and they are familiar with the legal wording and potential liability issues represented by a band of opportunist looking to make a quick fortune. The wording in the Ridgeline owners manual is the result of a team of individuals that came together with a collective agreement that a WDH is extremely easy to miss-set and is therefore a dangerous device. This whole discussion validates this concern. If this appears too cautionary, then perhaps the language should be re-worded to be more clear about the potential pit-falls. However, it is difficult to anticipate the hundreds of potential set-ups on the market without targeting a specific piece of hardware.

"The fact of the matter is the Ridgeline was properly designed to tow the rated trailer without the use of a WDH. If you wish to ignore this recommendation by a staff of technical experts in vehicle dynamics and formulate your own guidelines based on your personal experiences – proceed at your own risk. However, please do not encourage others to follow your path without equal cautionary sensitivity for their safety."

In a private e-mail to me this same engineer said that WDHs could help the overall dynamics if properly set-up and if designed differently than the haphazard chain link design that is prevalent today and if spring bars could be more finely tuned to the individual rig. He indicated that he was on an SAE panel that is exploring improving towing safety and that WDH use was a topic that the panel and Honda was exploring.

Dick

[crispyboy]

Wow, Just read through this interesting thread.
I do not think these Honda engineers have taken their nose out a book long enough to get some real world experience - I bet somedays they can't find their hind quarters with both hands.
I'm glad you have taken the advice from some of the seasoned folks here on this board. I have pulled many utillity trailers in my life and understand loading etc... but I also am happy to take advice from these people and I am slowing gathering all the items I need to make my travels as safe as I can.

Glad it is all working out for you.

[Beginner]

As stated before there is no equalizing link between the two axles on the trailer.
The ball height therefore determines the weight distribution on the two axles.
The setting of the Weight Distrubution Bars (be they trunion, round or equalizer) determines the amount of and distribution of weight to the tow vehicle.
The desired end result is equal weight on all four axles (the two on the tow vehicle and the two on the trailer).
So make it easy on yourselves and cheat.
Call and make arrangments with a local CAT scale and tell the operator straight up that you are trying to set up your weight distributing hitch and would like to use their scales to get every thing balanced and correct. Inquire as to when their not so busy times are and do it then. They usually have large parking lots. Just pull off to an unused corner and make your adjustments.
Here in Virginia the CAT Scales in Suffolk I believe are $10.00 for the first pass then $1.00 for each subsequent pass within a 24 hour period. They were very nice and as helpful as could be realizing I had never done this before (used the CAT scale).
That way you know that the weight is equal on the two trailer axles for your individual situation (loading etc).
You may have to change the height and/or angle on the ball mount number of links under tension and lastly the position of the dual cam saddles (I have the Reese dual cam straight line).
The difference in ride, handeling and braking is amazing, unless of course you happen to be lucky and hit the right combination of adjustment by accident. In that case one pass across the scales is all you need.
THE TRAILER AND THE TOW VEHICLE BEING LEVEL DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE WEIGHT ON ALL THE AXLES IS EQUAL.
By the way, Dodge and GM vans have a facsimilie chassis welded to the floor, not the seperate ladder chassis found on pick-up trucks. That is why the towing capacity is less than for the pick-up trucks given the capacity rating (1/2 ton, 3/4 ton, 1 ton, etc).
Beginner

[WestMichCamp]

Yooper, after reading through this post, I have to give you credit for putting up with all of the "advice" you were given on here in regards to your Honda TV. I am not sure if you have noticed, but there are many people on here that like to quote specs and tell people why they can not do something, based on the "OEM Specs for their Vehicle" But in this case everyone suggested you ignore the OEM and do what they thought was better and safer.

It appears that your OEM is qualified to tell you how much you can tow, but they are not qualified to tell you how to do it with the vehicle they designed, but the people on here are qualifed to tell you. I got a chuckle out of seeing all of the "experts" on here give you gloom and doom strories about something they know nothing about. Towing with a Honda Ridgeline.

If you were towing with a Suburban, one of the favored tow vehicles on here, then I would say they do have a lot of hands on experince, and would be considered "experts". I had to laugh when one poster said that your 40 years experience pulling a pop up and a boat, ment you had no expereience pulling a travel trailer, and counted for nothing. What a joke, towing experience is experience. Just becasue someone has pulled a travel trailer, one, does not mean that they are good at it, or two, they are even a good driver. Many towers drive very little except on vacation, and many of their towing issues are more to do with their inabilites to handle road conditions and other vehicles, than the tow vehicle it self. Most, if not all, accidents are the result of driver error.

I hope you are enjoying your Reese system for your vehicle, that is the same one I purchased. I also pull with a less than favored tow vehicle, a Ford Bronco. I pulled it home, over 150 miles with the PO hitch, with no sway control on I 96 and I 696 , on a windy day, and had no issues. The Bronco is more stable with my Argosy on it than with out. Most of the credit goes to the Argosy though, since I passed many travel trailers being towed by the favored Suburban, weaving all over the place.

Next summer we plan to make a trip up to TQ Falls, there are some really nice state parks in the UP.

[BillTex]

Originally Posted by WestMichCamp

Yooper, after reading through this post, I have to give you credit for putting up with all of the "advice" you were given on here in regards to your Honda TV. I am not sure if you have noticed, but there are many people on here that like to quote specs and tell people why they can not do something, based on the "OEM Specs for their Vehicle" But in this case everyone suggested you ignore the OEM and do what they thought was better and safer.

It appears that your OEM is qualified to tell you how much you can tow, but they are not qualified to tell you how to do it with the vehicle they designed, but the people on here are qualifed to tell you. I got a chuckle out of seeing all of the "experts" on here give you gloom and doom strories about something they know nothing about. Towing with a Honda Ridgeline.

If you were towing with a Suburban, one of the favored tow vehicles on here, then I would say they do have a lot of hands on experince, and would be considered "experts". I had to laugh when one poster said that your 40 years experience pulling a pop up and a boat, ment you had no expereience pulling a travel trailer, and counted for nothing. What a joke, towing experience is experience. Just becasue someone has pulled a travel trailer, one, does not mean that they are good at it, or two, they are even a good driver. Many towers drive very little except on vacation, and many of their towing issues are more to do with their inabilites to handle road conditions and other vehicles, than the tow vehicle it self. Most, if not all, accidents are the result of driver error.

I hope you are enjoying your Reese system for your vehicle, that is the same one I purchased. I also pull with a less than favored tow vehicle, a Ford Bronco. I pulled it home, over 150 miles with the PO hitch, with no sway control on I 96 and I 696 , on a windy day, and had no issues. The Bronco is more stable with my Argosy on it than with out. Most of the credit goes to the Argosy though, since I passed many travel trailers being towed by the favored Suburban, weaving all over the place.

Next summer we plan to make a trip up to TQ Falls, there are some really nice state parks in the UP.

WMC, Yooper “asked” for advice, he did not “put up” with unsolicited opinions. Based on the data he supplied for his AS and TV, many experienced folks here as well as the manufacturer of his TV, suggested that this scenario would be near (if not over) his TV’s capacity. This is not the preferred position to be in, not the safest way to travel and is illegal. Had he asked for advice on a different combo, with more favorable ratios, there may have been a very different response. Yes we all have our brand loyalties, but would not hesitate to give the stamp of approval to any safe set-up. Were someone with an overloaded vehicle to get in an accident, you would be found at fault. As he already owns the vehicle, and may not be in a position to upgrade at this time, he chose to take his chances and try out this combo. Did you stop to think there may be a reason there are not many folks here towing AirStreams with such a vehicle? To date, it appears that he has been safe. I and many others would not feel comfortable traveling at near capacity. When someone does try this, gets away with it a couple of times, and then comments “it was fine” it is usually because they have no other comparison. If you towed your Argosy with a ¾ ton (and I am NOT suggesting you need one) I am pretty darn sure you would not want to tow with anything else again. Having more TV than you need provides a level of safety and comfort difficult to measure.
And yes, there is a significant difference between towing a popup or boat, and towing a travel trailer. The physics of towing a high profile vehicle, with great surface area, can make for some tricky dynamics. Most vehicle manufactures will reflect this in publishing one set of numbers for boat towing, and another rating for towing TT’s.

There will always be naysayers, and most of us need to learn by our own mistakes. For the most part, the folks on this board try to make suggestions in the name of safety first, and then comfort second. Hopefully, no-one will be hurt or killed along the way.

Good luck to you both.

Bill

[WestMichCamp]

Originally Posted by BillTex

WMC, Yooper “asked” for advice, he did not “put up” with unsolicited opinions. Based on the data he supplied for his AS and TV, many experienced folks here as well as the manufacturer of his TV, suggested that this scenario would be near (if not over) his TV’s capacity. This is not the preferred position to be in, not the safest way to travel and is illegal. Had he asked for advice on a different combo, with more favorable ratios, there may have been a very different response. Yes we all have our brand loyalties, but would not hesitate to give the stamp of approval to any safe set-up. Were someone with an overloaded vehicle to get in an accident, you would be found at fault. As he already owns the vehicle, and may not be in a position to upgrade at this time, he chose to take his chances and try out this combo. Did you stop to think there may be a reason there are not many folks here towing AirStreams with such a vehicle? To date, it appears that he has been safe. I and many others would not feel comfortable traveling at near capacity. When someone does try this, gets away with it a couple of times, and then comments “it was fine” it is usually because they have no other comparison. If you towed your Argosy with a ¾ ton (and I am NOT suggesting you need one) I am pretty darn sure you would not want to tow with anything else again. Having more TV than you need provides a level of safety and comfort difficult to measure.
And yes, there is a significant difference between towing a popup or boat, and towing a travel trailer. The physics of towing a high profile vehicle, with great surface area, can make for some tricky dynamics. Most vehicle manufactures will reflect this in publishing one set of numbers for boat towing, and another rating for towing TT’s.

There will always be naysayers, and most of us need to learn by our own mistakes. For the most part, the folks on this board try to make suggestions in the name of safety first, and then comfort second. Hopefully, no-one will be hurt or killed along the way.

Good luck to you both.

Bill

The main discussion on here did not have anything to do with the towing capacity of the TV, most of it centered around the fact that his OEM suggested he not use a WD hitch. Nothing was stated by his OEM that he was exceeding the capcity of the TV. He was not exceeding any recommendations of his OEM, the only thing he was doing, based on everyones advise was using a WD hitch, which was not recommended by his OEM.

What happens if down the road, he has an issue with his tires on his TV wearing in an odd pattern, or there is some issues with vehicle alingment, and they see find out he has been using a WD hitch? He is screwed, there is a reason they do not recommend them, but wait, they don't know what they are talking about, but everyone on here does.

You say he chose to take his chances and try this combo. What chances? People take chances everyday when they pull a travel trailer. You make it sound by even doing this he is being unsafe, which is not true. Why is this not a safe set up? Facts, not opinion please.

Lets see, take the number of Bambi's produced that his vehicle is rated to pull, times the number of Ridglines produced, and compare that to the number of Airstreams produced, and the number of Suburbans, GM anf Ford Trucks produced over lets say the last 30 years. I think you are able to do the math. Even if it was one of the best TV's out there, the numbers would still be low due to the number of Ridglines that have been produced.

As far as more power is better and safer. As long as your TV has the capcity rating that is not exceeded by the TT and you are looking at the same vehicle only heaveyer duty, then the only real advantage you have is that it will go faster with the TT attached to it. More power over what is needed to tow a vehicles safely, is just that more power, not added safety. There is a reason most vehicles in the ditch when it snows are SUV's, they can go faster in the snow, but they can not stop any faster. Your comment makes no sense in regards to added safety.

I am not saying he has the best setup, but what I have seen on here, if its not a suburban, or a HD truck, its not safe or adequate by most peoples standards on here. If that was true, we would all have Diesels and HA hitches.

Your right, he asked for adivice, and everyone gave it to him on why he needed a WD hitch for his Ridgline, but think about it, no one really knew what they were talking about since no one on here had any experience with the Honda to know if the OEM was correct or not.

Everyone loves to thow "safety" around on here and that is the justification for everything. Just because you play with Tiger Woods clubs, does not mean you are as good as Tiger Woods, you just have the same equipment, and you will find he is just better at using it. He could beat you with starter clubs, just like a good driver with a "less than ideal" setup up is much better and "safer" than a average driver and a "good" setup, regardless how many miles they have driven with a TT behind them.

[ticki2]

Seem to remember the original title of this thread was "Ball height question?". What happened?

[Yooper]

Hello, WestMichCamp!

I have continued to enjoy towing with the Ridgeline and just finished a 2200 mile round trip to New York's Catskills. I love the Reese WDH, and really can't imagine towing without it. The folks on this forum are sometimes "rough and tumble," but at least you know what is on their minds.

I have not installed the Reese anti-sway system, as I will have to do some cutting and welding to move the Bambi's battery box to get it installed properly. Frankly, I have travelled enough miles in enough conditions to question whether the anti-sway system is needed with this combination of trailer and TV. No issues whatsoever with swaying.

TQ falls is on the eastern end of the U.P., we live on the western end near Ironwood. If you get over to this end, I would recommend you take a trip out to Black River Harbor, on Lake Superior. Gorgeous National Forest Campground on a bluff overlooking the lake/harbor. No services on their sites, but they do have a dump station. And every site is separated by tree lines. If you like falls, they number one after another as you come down the Black River Valley to the lake. They are marked, and have developed access points. Some great drops.

The shoreline for Lake Superior is undeveloped for many miles each way.

Worth a stop!

TTYL,

Yooper

[shantz]

gents,
I have a draw tite drop hitch with sway bars. Just got it on my TV and when hooked to the trailer the tongue is 1" higher in the front than the rear.
I am almost level and do not have any more adjustments to drop it down.
Do you think I am ok at only 1" high on the tongue? or should I buy a longer drop hitch?

[Beginner]

Here goes:
Ball height is very inportant, more important than on a trailer with leaf springs and an equalizer link between the springs.
On our airstreams with the torsion springs there is no equalization of weight between axles, there fore the ball height is what you adjust the balance of weight between the front axle of the trailer and the back axle of the trailer.
The best way to establish ball height is to take your unit to a CAT scale and play with ball height and trunion/round bar/equalizer bar tension until you have close to the same weight on all four axles on both vehicles (Two on the tow and two on the trailer). If you look at my pictures you will see that the trailer seems a little off, but the weight on all four wheels is within 100 lbs of one another.
If you want let me know and I will be happy to go with you to the CAT scale on Rt460 in Suffolk and do the adjustments. I live in Norfolk.
Beginner

[shantz]

hello Beginner,
I just might take you up on that offer. I am going to try Dodd RV this week to get a longer drop hitch shank. I just shelled out a wad of cash to Truck Accessory center in Moyock for the one I have and wish I could do an exchange for a longer hitch.
I didn't see which photo you were describing where you had a slight increase or decrease but still had each axle within 100lbs.
also, did the truck scale let you stay there and adjust? and are you referring to thee truck scale near the airport ?

[Beginner]

shantz
The scale out by the airport is a State of Virginia Truck weighing station. DO NOT GO THERE.
The CAT scale is on 460 at just off the by pass on the right. Its actually a Miller Mart/Truck Stop/CAT Scale.
I called them ahead of time and talked to the person there and explained to them what I wanted to do.
I was told that I could use the back lot and I took pains to stay out of the way of the trucks (people making a living).
Its $10.00 for the first pass and $1.00 for subsequent passes within the next 24 hours.
Once I finally got the weight on axles equalized I rejusted the Reese Dual cam anti sway saddles (as they were off when I had finished) while I was there. There is plenty of room.
The best picture I have is an accident, I was caught at someone elses caravan. Go here
TCT Photo Gallery - The Participants - Powered by PhotoPost
page 2 pic 393.
Thats my tow vehicle and trailer in the background. It looks a little tounge low but the weights are right.
It will have to be a weekend as I still work.
Beginner