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Old 03-30-2007, 08:50 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper
Whoa!

I am expressing my surprise at not getting the message from Airstream that a weight equalizing hitch was required for my little 16 foot Bambi,
It's not the Bambi that requires the hitch, rather it is your TV. You will pretty much be maxed when you are locked and loaded with this set-up. That is what makes for the dangerous situation; ANY combo that is at it's max is not a good thing. Whether it is a 3/4 ton truck or your Honda.

BTW; I am not entirely sure you can use a WD hitch on a unibody. Better look into this first.

I will quote another member here" inadequate tow vehicles are the leading cause of very expensive yard art" and I'll add (to echo Andy) possibly a bad accident...

You asked for advice, now you don't like what you are hearing...
Do the right thing. Nobody wants you to get hurt.

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Old 03-30-2007, 10:35 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper
Whoa!


I have towed trailers for over 40 years, but nothing this substantial. (A small pop up camper that goes under 1000 lbs and a boat that goes about 2000 lbs.) So this is a step up in weight. At the same time, I have never owned a pickup truck to act as the tow vehicle, so I figured upgrading to a stronger ball/hitch combo and a more heavily sprung vehicle would allow the same experience I have had for 40 years, which has been safe and trouble free towing.

I have also read several posts in different threads of this forum where people with set ups similar to my rig don't use equalizing hitches and seem to be perfectly happy.

Back to Andy's very stern warnings. Andy, I have followed your postings in the thread on equalizer hitches and can understand the explanations you have given there. I factor that in with you experience in the field and would tend to absolutely trust your advice. Would you mind explaining to me some of the physics involved??

Finally, as I have not bought an equalizing setup, yet, what would you recommend? (I noticed that the studies you cited started at a hitch weight of 500 pounds.) As an Airstream dealer, I suspect that you have had much experience with the 16 foot Bambis and could probably give me a dead on recommendation for the Bambi and my Honda Ridgeline.

Thanks again, to all of you. The Ralph Naders of the world have always been my personal heroes!

Dick
Dick.

SAFETY SAFETY SAFETY.

This site has many "Ralph Naders." Many have towed Airstreams for 40 years or more.

Listen and Listen again and again to the warnings.

However, there are a select few that do not, have not and will not abide by safety rules. "THEY" are "INVINCIBLE." Or, so they think.

The engineering questions you ask are valid, but would take a couple of hundred pages to answer.

Follow what hundreds of thousands of travel trailers owners have done for over a half of a century, and equip your rig accordingly.

You have towed trailers for 40 years, but nothing this substancial. Then what your really saying is that you have "zero" experience with the task at hand.

Getting your tow vehicle and Airstream rigged correctly, will allow you many more years of peaceful beer drinking. Avoiding the issue, will statistically wise, shorten that considerably.

Get the smallest rated load equalizing hitch that you can, AND, add a torsion type sway control such as Reese. A friction sway control does not know when you are in a straight line or not, therefore it's brainless. Additionall, a friction type sway control, should not be used when it's raining or snowing or on ice.

HELLO!!!!!!!!!!

That's the time you need more help, if possible, certainly not less. A torsion sway control, on the other hand, is always functional, regardless of the weather.

You asked, I have answered. Some will disagree, most will confirm.

Please remember, there are a select few that are still convinced that our present form of "wheels" is not here to stay.

How can we say that, you might ask?

How any people do you know, that are still trying to reinvent the wheel, or throwing rocks at physics?

Hmmm.

Andy
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Old 03-30-2007, 10:39 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwightdi
All good advice here. The tire temperature will tell you alot about whether you have set up the rig properly on a dual or triple axle unit. Before you start to pull at sustained high speeds keep your tire pressures up and feel them frequently to see how they are bearing the load. You can easily sense as little as 5 degrees difference in the tire temperature. Also check the temperature of the individual wheel bearings. The proper setup of ball height and weight distribution bar settings will result in completely uniform temperatures in the trailer tire temperatures and wheel bearings. Go slow and listen to what the trailer is telling you.
An interesting exception to the above is that I've personally found that the front trailer tire on the right side will always be between 5 to 10 degrees warmer than the other three. This is apparently caused by the tire being in line with the exhaust from the truck. The reading has been fairly consistent for many thousands of miles - as measured by a Raytek temperature gauge - and both before and after new tires and an axle re-alignment at the AS factory in Ohio.
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Old 03-30-2007, 10:44 AM   #32
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Ball height

Technically, there is no "ball height" dimensions available for any Airstream ever built, that is equipped with torsion axles.

The published "ball height" is for an absolutely empty brand new trailer that just rolled off the assembly line.

Torsion axles, are weight sensitive, and can settle in time as well.

Therefore the "correct" ball height for someones Airstream, can only be determined by measuring that specific trailer, loaded, ready to travel.

A published 19 inch ball height can lower to 17 inches, if heavily loaded, or some where in between.

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Old 03-30-2007, 11:51 AM   #33
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[quote=Yooper]Interesting.
Would be interested in the physics that mandate what you are recommending.

For example, I am trying to visualize what happens to forces on the tongue, if brakes are applied, assuming the trailer is level, and assuming the trailer brakes are adjusted properly. What forces are acting upon my tow vehicle that would cause instability? I have 350 pounds of tongue weight and a tow vehicle that isn't going to easily squat, which I suspect could happen with a softly sprung vehicle that could cause a change in geometry with the trailer coupler and frame. Another way of asking the same question would be how do load equalizing hitches help if forces don't cause the front and the rear of the tow vehicle to become drastically unequal in weight?

For purposes of trying to understand this, in steps, I am leaving sway out of the equation for now.

Yooper---I've read throught this thread and agree none have really addressed you question about what happens physically when you hitch up with 350 lbs of tongue weight. Ist some misconceptions. #1 forces Do cause drastic changes in weight front to rear with ANY size trailer tow vehicle combination even if it doesn't squat. 2nd{Tongue weight 350 lbs is incorrect} Airstream lists banbi tongue weight at 390lbs, add to that another 200 lbs of water propane and a few odds and ends and a more realistic figure will be closer to 450-475 lbs maybe even more. Another misconception :: nothing personal here but your tow vehicle is actually built on an autombile platform, far from being a "truck" as they would have you believe. Not saying it won't be adiquite for your needs but that you're going to find out it "will squat" without a weight distributing hitch.
Physics in a nutshell---450 ilbs of tongue weight leveraged at the hitch ball will be equal to over 1000 lbs in the bed. This reduces weight on the front wheels and lessens steering control.---When trailer brakes are applyed weight is transfered forward increasing downward force on the hitch lessening front wheel weight and stability even more. As others have said you can't leave sway out of this equation. Whenever weight is transfered off the front wheels Sway Does Occur --guaranteed ! ---pieman
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Old 03-30-2007, 12:44 PM   #34
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Last call!

Out of interest, I took a trip over to the Ridgeline Owner's Forum and found a section on WDH's. Apparently, Honda does NOT recommend WDH's and that was causing a lively discussion. Some felt the company position was caused by the unibody construction, as one of you pointed out, others felt it was caused by the fear of improperly setting up the WDH and thereby aggravating instability problems. In response to the unibody theory it was pointed out that this is a modified unibody with a metal stamping welded to the the unibody that actually does act as a frame. A lot of interesting stuff. I will paste in the one post that pq'd my interest the most which reminds me of the literature I had read on the design history of this vehicle (as being one of the first trucks designed from the ground up for towing):

"you have to take into consideration the initial weight distribution of the RL before you make blanket statements about WDHs. With a 58/42 weight distribution, the RL starts out with about 720 lb more weight on the front axle than on the rear. So even with a max. recommended tongue weight of 600 lb, the weight distribution on the axles would be very close to equal. Honda states it doesn't recommend a WDH because of how it can affect drivability if improperly adjusted and I think it is a valid concern. It wouldn't take much mis-adjustment of the hitch to skew the weight distribution in the wrong direction. The main reason WDHs were devised was because of rear axle overloading and rear end sag on tow vehicles trying to haul the huge trailers of today. If kept within recommended limits, neither condition occurs on the RL."

Here's where I find myself stuck in the analytical process. There is a ton of experience in this forum that cries out for WDH's. Honda recommends against it and has designed a vehicle from the ground up for towing. The trailer of my choice is well within the Ridgeline's towing and tongue weight capacity. None of the WDH's appear to be designed for my lighter Bambi and sort-of-truck combination. (However, the last posting member believes my actual ready to roll and camp tongue weight will be in the 500 pound range, so he does throw the wild card on the analytical table!)

I also remember reading somewhere that the independent rear suspension of the Ridgeline, as opposed to a solid axle on leaf springs, countered trailer swaying tendencies contributed to by a solid axle.

At this point of conflicting recommendations, I am likely to do what I originally planned on doing: pick up the Bambi and see how she tows and hope that I have time to learn. If she exhibits all of the reasons that have made you all believers in WDH's, I'll stop at a hitch seller's place of business and go across the street and have a few brewkis while the lightest duty WDH is installed.

Or, I may buy one of the anti-sway kits, without the WDH, and be prepared at least to address the sway gremlin which Howie keeps emphasizing.

Once again, thanks for all of the input. For those of you who have pointed out potential liablility issues for not using state of the art equipment, I suspect Honda will be a much better lawsuit target than yours truly.

Last call for anyone who has actually towed a 16 foot Bambi with a Honda Ridgeline!
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Old 03-30-2007, 01:51 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper
Out of interest, I took a trip over to the Ridgeline Owner's Forum and found a section on WDH's. Apparently, Honda does NOT recommend WDH's and that was causing a lively discussion. Some felt the company position was caused by the unibody construction, as one of you pointed out, others felt it was caused by the fear of improperly setting up the WDH and thereby aggravating instability problems. In response to the unibody theory it was pointed out that this is a modified unibody with a metal stamping welded to the the unibody that actually does act as a frame. A lot of interesting stuff. I will paste in the one post that pq'd my interest the most which reminds me of the literature I had read on the design history of this vehicle (as being one of the first trucks designed from the ground up for towing):

"you have to take into consideration the initial weight distribution of the RL before you make blanket statements about WDHs. With a 58/42 weight distribution, the RL starts out with about 720 lb more weight on the front axle than on the rear. So even with a max. recommended tongue weight of 600 lb, the weight distribution on the axles would be very close to equal. Honda states it doesn't recommend a WDH because of how it can affect drivability if improperly adjusted and I think it is a valid concern. It wouldn't take much mis-adjustment of the hitch to skew the weight distribution in the wrong direction. The main reason WDHs were devised was because of rear axle overloading and rear end sag on tow vehicles trying to haul the huge trailers of today. If kept within recommended limits, neither condition occurs on the RL."

Here's where I find myself stuck in the analytical process. There is a ton of experience in this forum that cries out for WDH's. Honda recommends against it and has designed a vehicle from the ground up for towing. The trailer of my choice is well within the Ridgeline's towing and tongue weight capacity. None of the WDH's appear to be designed for my lighter Bambi and sort-of-truck combination. (However, the last posting member believes my actual ready to roll and camp tongue weight will be in the 500 pound range, so he does throw the wild card on the analytical table!)

I also remember reading somewhere that the independent rear suspension of the Ridgeline, as opposed to a solid axle on leaf springs, countered trailer swaying tendencies contributed to by a solid axle.

At this point of conflicting recommendations, I am likely to do what I originally planned on doing: pick up the Bambi and see how she tows and hope that I have time to learn. If she exhibits all of the reasons that have made you all believers in WDH's, I'll stop at a hitch seller's place of business and go across the street and have a few brewkis while the lightest duty WDH is installed.

Or, I may buy one of the anti-sway kits, without the WDH, and be prepared at least to address the sway gremlin which Howie keeps emphasizing.

Once again, thanks for all of the input. For those of you who have pointed out potential liablility issues for not using state of the art equipment, I suspect Honda will be a much better lawsuit target than yours truly.

Last call for anyone who has actually towed a 16 foot Bambi with a Honda Ridgeline!
Please post itinerary for upcoming trips...

Thanx, Ralph N
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Old 03-30-2007, 02:12 PM   #36
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the real deal....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inland RV Center, In
Technically, there is no "ball height" dimensions available for any Airstream ever built, that is equipped with torsion axles.

The published "ball height" is for an absolutely empty brand new trailer that just rolled off the assembly line.

Torsion axles, are weight sensitive, and can settle in time as well.

Therefore the "correct" ball height for someones Airstream, can only be determined by measuring that specific trailer, loaded, ready to travel.

A published 19 inch ball height can lower to 17 inches, if heavily loaded, or some where in between.

Andy
from many years of trailering horse trailers 2,4,6,8 horse trailers...

Andy is giving good advice but doesn't tell the whole story. Single axle trailers are different than multiple axle trailers. In a single axle trailer, overall level is less important. In that case, nose low is somewhat preferable to nose high because of rear wheel loading on the TV. Pulling up on the rear of a TV is really bad.
In multiple axle trailers overall level is very important. When a multiple axle trailer is level, all of the wheels have the same loading. When the trailer is not level, more weight is put on one set - front or back depending on the trailers attitude. In a light trailer that could be carried by a single axle ( 3800lb Argosy) overall level is less important but in a bigger trailer where wheel loading is near the max rating for the axle and tires ( 34' tri-axel), overall level is essential. Hence, Andy is right. Unloaded ball height is not the issue. The ball should be mounted at a height that makes the trailer level.
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Old 03-30-2007, 04:43 PM   #37
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Andy made one other point. He said friction sway controls were essentially useless in his experience and said that your were supposed to remove them in rain and snow conditions. Well, that is the only kind of sway control that can be added without weight distribution also being on the trailer. What Andy was recommending was that you purchase a Reese Dual Cam, an Equalizer brand, a Hensley Arrow or some other type of mechanical sway dampening system rather than one of the friction slide type of systems.

Of course you say Honda is saying not to put a WD system of any kind on the vehicle. You've now asked around and can find no one on the forum who pulls with a Honda Ridgeline. Does that say anything to you?

Personally, because I believe so strongly in a proper WD hitch and sway control system, I would be looking toward trading for a tow vehicle with a proper frame with which I could utilize a WD system.

I hope you don't construe my comments as trying to flame you or as trying to talk down to you. It is not intended in that way. My comments are just my convictions told straight out.

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Old 03-30-2007, 09:10 PM   #38
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"you have to take into consideration the initial weight distribution of the RL before you make blanket statements about WDHs. With a 58/42 weight distribution, the RL starts out with about 720 lb more weight on the front axle than on the rear. So even with a max. recommended tongue weight of 600 lb, the weight distribution on the axles would be very close to equal. Honda states it doesn't recommend a WDH because of how it can affect drivability if improperly adjusted and I think it is a valid concern. It wouldn't take much mis-adjustment of the hitch to skew the weight distribution in the wrong direction. The main reason WDHs were devised was because of rear axle overloading and rear end sag on tow vehicles trying to haul the huge trailers of today. If kept within recommended limits, neither condition occurs on the RL."

Something to think about . Just about every TV out there is heavier in the front than the rear , unloaded , unless they are rear engine . All full size pick-ups have a larger front to rear weight ratio than the RL , and almost all are using WDH , and found it better . In order to keep the stability of the TV you need to maintain the front to rear weight ratio , or close to it . When you put the tongue weight on the back of the RL what is going to happen with that ratio if you do nothing for weight on the front? That's what WD does , restores the balance of the TV for proper handling .
One other thing , don't use the unloaded weights of the TV or the trailer for doing your math . Use the GVWR of each , it's more realistic of how you will go camping , at least if you're like the rest of us . Good discussion all aroud
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Old 03-31-2007, 02:57 AM   #39
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Honda Ridgeline as Tow Vehicle

Here's the thread I was referring to on the website for the Ridgeline Owner's Club:

http://www.ridgelineownersclub.com/f...ead.php?t=5647

I posted a "Last Call" message there, as well, as I see several Airstreams being towed by RL's on their photo pages. Hopefully, I will get a response from those who have tried with and without a WDH.

No, I don't mind feeling flamed. I know that all of you feel very strongly about WDHs from experience. I'm probably 6 weeks away from making my roadtrip to pick up the Bambi, so hope to get some feedback from actual users of this combination by then.

Yes, I will post my itinerary so you can all stay off the roads as I come through.

Dick
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Old 03-31-2007, 04:31 AM   #40
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Oh SHEEEEE-IT!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper
Whoa!

I am expressing my surprise at not getting the message from Airstream that a weight equalizing hitch was required for my little 16 foot Bambi, I am not challenging people's experience. Just want to make sure that your experience would apply to my rig. As I am surprised, I am asking questions on the physics that compel that result, I'm not assuming that you are "chicken littles!"
...
Dick
Dick, I ain't little, but I am a Chick..... so here's my stories.

First time I ever towed I stupidly tried to take the beltway around Baltimore - thinking that at 7am on Sunday it would be deserted (Oh Wrong!) I stayed in the outside lane clutching the steering wheel while flop-sweating and doing my best to keep out of the way of all those crazy drivers. Then suddenly from nowhere a semi crossed three lanes of traffic to get to an exit ramp directly in front of me. There was nothing to do but slam on the brakes HARD. The 'burb nose dived, I smelled smoking rubber, the semi missed clipping me with about 18 inches to spare. My 2005 22 CCD stayed arrow straight behind me. I let up on the brakes and continued on - scared but OK. I made it to my exit safely and vowed to avoid beltways.

A panic stop is a great way to jacknife. The weight distributing hitch helps immensely in keeping the straight. (Having the tires inflated correctly, the brake controller and trailer brakes adjusted correctly helped too.)


----------- a year later, a bigger Airstream

I had a blowout, not a flat, a BLAM! Blowout... But it happened on my tow vehicle, a big 2500 Suburban with big knobby tires and an extra leaf in the springs. I was going about 65 MPH uphill in windy conditions.

The tire exploded off the edge of the rim and the truck barely jerked sideways. I was able to slow down, turn on the flashers and slowly move to the edge of the road. In almost 40 years of driving I'd never had a flat before. If I had NOT been towing the Airstream with a properly adjusted Reese Dual Cam hitch, odds are the truck would have rolled. The Airstream acted as an anchor, and the dual cam actually held the back of my truck near to level.

Had I been towing without weight distributing hardware on, I'm betting the front of the trailer would have been scraping along the pavement if not turned on the side. Had I been going downhill without a weight distributing hitch, heaven only knows but it surely would have been way uglier.

I've been a full-timer for two years, but I still work so I don't get that much road time. Considering it's only two years, it is somewhat remarkable that I've been helped or outright saved twice already by WD hitches. (sing two choruses of "I'm a believer" here).

Go to Colaw's RV Salvage website if you want to see what can happen when a trailer rolls over.

Airstream doesn't say you need to spend more $$$$ on weight distributing hitch? Well dear of course they don't. They are selling Airstreams, not hitches or tow vehicles. The last thing they want to do is get you alarmed about the true cost of this adventure.

As JohnHD says, "Suck it up, spend the bucks and do it right the first time." Your Airstream is expensive but can be replaced, your life and your family's life... priceless.

Paula Ford
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Old 03-31-2007, 10:13 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yooper
Or, I may buy one of the anti-sway kits, without the WDH, and be prepared at least to address the sway gremlin which Howie keeps emphasizing.

Ridgeline!
For the good of all please advise if you find a Sway Control System that is not part of a WDH. Don't come back and say the Reese friction sway control will work. That is a joke that the lawyers just haven't descovered yet.

Not sure what your hesitation is if you have several thousand dollars invested in an almost new trailer to not going for the equipment to tow it.
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Old 03-31-2007, 10:59 AM   #42
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My last comment----If Honda doesn't recomend a WD hitch because the owner my not be able to adjust it properly, then what are their thoughts about the owners ability to use a Brake controler. An improperly adjusted brake controler is at least as dangerous if not more than a WD thats not set up correctly. Would the same reasoning apply here? Ther's obviously more to their reasing than that. My guess is they fear body damage where the reciever mounts to the unit body as a WD hitch adds conciderable more load at the attaching point.---pieman
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