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Old 06-01-2006, 07:28 AM   #15
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When I upgraded my bars on the SS, it was recommended and it's been my exp that both the front and rear bars be changed to match or an understeer/oversteer condition could happen. Rog, if you added a rear bar where there was no bar, and kept the front the same, I'd be interested in how the vehicle manuvers without the trailer behind it. I took the rear bar off when doing LCA (lower control arm) upgrades in the back, and only had the front on for one trip and all I could saw was WOW. The car misbehaved at nearly every harder turn I took. What have you found with the Ex, though I doubt you had any harder turns or manuvers in the Ex as I laid into it with the SS.
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Old 06-01-2006, 12:22 PM   #16
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There is only one size for the front on the Ex, and both Hellwig and Ford provide the same 24mm bars. I think, though, that all of the Excursions had them on the front from the factory. Beginning (I think) in '02 and continuing maybe through early '04 all of the Excursions (or at least most of them) came equipped with a 30mm bar on the rear as well. Ford discontinued the 30 mm bar sometime in '04 (again I think) and noted in the parts books as an "unneccessary" part. HA!

I could have gotten the 30 mm bar for the Superduty trucks from Ford, but there's no way to cross reference whether the brackets are identical or not. My Ford parts guy recommended that I just get the Hellwig bar since it is advertised as fitting the Excursion.

The Excursions were just plain squirrelly without the bars. With them, they handle great. With the bars AND radius rods, they're solid as a rock!

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Old 06-01-2006, 03:56 PM   #17
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w/d systems and antisway bars.....

hi all

the lexus in question may have the self leveling air suspension AND a full unibody (these were originally based on camry platform)....i looked at the reciever units available for this suv and they are class 2/3 with 300lb max tongue; recommended not to be used with w/d systems.....

the owner will need to check with a lexus dealer......
yes if they only tow for short trips
on slow roads and so on,
they might be fine for 1-2 trips a year.....
not my choice but might be theirs....

except for the tab trailer some dealers carry,
airstream doesn't have a new product for this market segment.....
till the base camp is in full production.

the basecamp with a finished interior,
could be light enough and styled such
that folks wanting to tow with car based suvs and so on,
would find them an attractive interpretation of 'airstream' silver...
for their camping needs and the looks....

really none of the new bambis are light enough for this buying segment...
the euro models airstream is building now
might help bring a smaller ligher unit to the usa
but it still would be with the euro features we've read about....

the ford superduties don't come with a rear antisway bar either....
it is available as a factory add-on and in the 'camper package'
they do not change the front bar when the rear is added...
i had them add one to my truck...

it isn't an absolute requirement to match
ft/rr swaybars on big clumsy vehicles like trucks or body/frame cars....
and going from no rear bar to any rear bar will improve body sway and steer-in somewhat....

oversteer and understeer are affected by the relationship between the 2 bars.......
on sporty cars, fwd cars and some others....
so matching bar characteristics on these vehicles is important.

with my audis and my track cars
changing the stiffness of either is perceptible while driving....
at the limits of steering/handling.
much like moving from snows or all seasons to proper cornering tires....

some antisway bars setup allow for simple adjustments on track day, to adapt to the conditions, tires, turns and so on..

cheers
2air'
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Old 06-01-2006, 05:41 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by 3Ms75Argosy
Just kidding of course! I'm thinking that your brakes are you're limiting factor... I think your four way disk brakes are probably better than the big brakes on the 1/2 ton p/u's around.... Chevy's are notoriously bad (speaking of first hand experience here). I think the hybrid has a heat / energy recovery system on each wheel - I think you have plenty of reserve. Does Toyota sell a tranny cooler?

Have fun with your rig! I'd also slap on some sway control as a belts and suspenders safety setup - it would be $100 well spent.

What kind of mileage are you getting towing? Is the electic motor being used all the time on the freeway, or do you find that it's only needed from start and up hills?
Welcome!
Any pics?
Marc
Hi Marc,
The RX400h gets about 14 mpg when towing the Bambi, and 27 to 30 with a combination of city and highway. It's not like the Prius, but it gets descent milage and the electiric motor helps boost the power to 268 hp. It also has what the Lexus people tell me as a "weight distribution hitch" on the car. What that is, I know not. The curb weight of the car is 4,500 and the Max towing weight is 3.500. My wife and I love the way it drives, and we are told it is one of the cleanest burning vehicles on the road.

Mike G
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Old 06-01-2006, 06:01 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnostic
The curb weight of the car is 4,500 and the Max towing weight is 3.500. My wife and I love the way it drives, and we are told it is one of the cleanest burning vehicles on the road.

Mike G
Mike, though it may be one of the cleanest burning vehicles on the road, it would/will also be one of the most unsafe combos on the road as well with a 16' Airstream or any other RV that weighs over 2500lbs and has passengers, cargo and fuel to carry.

I'd seriously consider a different car/truck for towing a full size RV. I've seen the hitch on the RX. The tube gets compressed to that of a class 2 hitch to allow for the exhaust tip to be cleared. The dealer is probobly saying the auto level is the weight distribution, but in fact, unless there are bars, there is no way for the weight to be spread between the tow vehicle and the RV. The hitch weight is in essence dead weight on the hitch. I realize it moves the 16', but there is a difference between moving and towing something. If you choose to continue to do it, please be extremely careful as what you are doing I would consider fairly dangerous.

As for the bar conversation, it must just be a truck thing cause my body on frame Chevy sedan needs the bars to be close to the same size and stiffness or it will misbehave.

I'm totally shocked that bars are not standard equipment on vehicles as they add a good level of control (or at least that's been my exp). I'm shocked that Ford would make it an *option*. I don't think the Burb has bars either come to think of it. I'd have to look again, but I'm not sure it even has a bar in the front. I've seen kits and although I haven't had any issues, I'm a firm believer in trying to put every possible advantage under my behind to make the towing situation the best possible after my many bad exp towing a 6300lb 25' with the wrong tow vehicle.
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Old 06-01-2006, 06:18 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
I mirror Roger's comments. For about $80 to $100, a friction sway would be a good investment. I don't think you need to get a $3000 Hensley or even a $175 dual cam system.

I am however a bit concerned that you chose to tow a 3500lb RV (not including fuel, passengers and cargo) with a Hybrid RX. It is rated at 3500lbs max (with the tow package hopefully) which I am going to bet you have exceeded once you deduct the weight of passengers in the RX, fuel and cargo from that 3500 max rating. My feeling is that these types of vehicles are really suited to tow jet skis, very small boats, pop-ups or full size RVs that weight about 2500lbs or less. If this is your first RV, you'll soon see what the concern is about when you get some exp towing in less than ideal circumstances.

To be honest, I'm less concerned with the sway control than what you have chosen to tow with. Though I applaud the move for environmental and cost savings reasons, you could find yourself in a pickle in a situation that had hills, mountains or an emergancy situation. Here is the blurb directly off the Lexus site on the tow rating:

[4]
Before towing, confirm your vehicle and trailer are compatible, hooked up properly and you have any necessary additional equipment. Do not exceed any weight ratings and follow all instructions and cautions from your trailer-hitch manufacturer and vehicle Owner's Manual. The maximum amount you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment.
Hi,
I had spoken with with a bunch of people including Lexus and Airstream about matching the Lexus with the 16' Bambi, and they said go ahead. The Lexus is 4,650 curb weight, with a "weight distribution" hitch (?) and the Bambi is supposed to be 3,500. It has a "class 3" hitch rating of 500 lb, (what ever that is.) The 268 hp engine seems to pull up hills fine. We are very careful to load as little stuff in it as possible and keep it distributed front to back, and also stay at 55 to 60 mph. However, we haven't had any tough times, like a panic stop situation or such. Of course, with a small wife (110 lb,) a Great Dane (140 lb.) a Miniature Pincher (5 lb.) and me, (223 lbs.) The Lexus is loaded pretty much. When we looked in to the Taurag, last year it turned out that the tongue weight wouldn't come close to the weight that the vehicle would pull and they had to yank all their ads with big Airstream trailers. I believe experience is the only teacher, so thanks for any info.
Mike G
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Old 06-01-2006, 07:47 PM   #21
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Mike. If you are saying you called Lexus and Airstream corporate, then I'd be shocked that Airstream would say sure. I've spoken with a number of folks at the factory, and most of what they have told me in my dealing with the few folks I had spoken with on the subject at the factory, mirror what's been said here on this thread. If you are talking about a sales person, well, that's pretty easy to figure out why they would say sure. Most here have heard the same song and dance.

The VW you mention has a higher listed tow capacity than the RX, a slight longer wheelbase than the RX, and for a 16', would be no problem at all. Good up to about a 22' RV at about 5600lbs IMHO. Given the numbers you've posted and deducting those numbers from your overall listed tow rating (which is how an actual tow rating is calculated), also taking into consideration fuel (about 15 gallons@ 5lbs a gallon), your actual tow rating would be in the ballpark 2925lbs. If the Airstream is loaded to or near capacity (water, LP, batteries, food, clothes) you will have without question exceeded the tow rating of the RX.

I don't mean this to sound like a jerk or a towing snob, but I get the impression that this may be your first RV, or your first exp towing given that you have questions about weight distribution, etc. The questions are great questions, however, most of the folks on this thread so far have said pretty much the same thing. Some of the folks that have responed here, I've met personally and some have even more towing exp than I do (and I have about 13 years under my belt). I hope you don't run into any issues with the setup you've chosen. But the numbers as presented with known specs do not suggest a good match.
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Old 06-01-2006, 10:43 PM   #22
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hi gnostic and others

again welcome to airstream'n and the forums.
i hope you have many happy and safe trips.
there aren't many posting here who tow with the lexus rx models...
knowing we may pounce on them.....
so sharing your experience is very valuable....
perhaps they read but don't post.....
but no one has pounced on you yet......
we all just want you towing safely....

toyota builds fine products that are safe and reliable....

the rx models are/have become their top sellers in the lexus line...

interestingly the rx models are sold under the 'harrier' lable in japan...
i know a bit about rabbits....

it is still based on the camry......
in IS a unibody car based vehicle......
do you know anyone towing an airstream with a camry?

it is more of a crossover vehicle than and suv.....
the terms are vague but cov's tend to be car based, fuel efficient, less rugged and better handling. because they are cars at heart......

the book reports the curb wt for the rx400h as 46-4700lbs.....this doesn't include options or passengers......

i could not find a gvwr for this model......that's a problem.
i could not find a gcwr for this model......that's a problem too.

we gotta know the gross rating for both the tv and the combo....
in other words somewhere someone has to declare what the maximum combined weight of everything is......tv, trailer, people, and so on....

the lexus book does say towing is 3500lbs followed by this disclaimer......

"The maximum amount you can tow depends on the total weight of any cargo, occupants and available equipment."

in simple terms this means for every pound put IN the lexus towing is reduced......
people and dogs is over 450lbs.....
so towing is REDUCED by this amt.......
meaning 3500 drops to 3000lbs.....

in addition many who sell towing related items (tv, trailers, hitches)
suggest w/d isn't needed for trailers less than 4-5000lbs......
many of us here disagree with this.....and use w/d systems.....
still i see NO w/d system even available for the recievers that fit the lexus....none.

the air suspension is often referred to as 'load leveling'
which is really close to 'load distributing' as words go.........
but means something VERY DIFFERENT.....

so to get back to your first post......
yes you need sway control
yes you are living in some sort of dream world

and this is all the more odd
with your chosen screen name!

cheers
2air'

twink......on the anti sway bars.....

i even up graded the bars on the airstream moho years ago....
and the body roll reduction was dramatic.....
not a sports car at 30 feet,
but it no longer leaned on ramps or big curves....

so i'm sure the improvement with the ss was dramatic.....
much like going to lower profile tires and stiffer sidewalls......

this isn't necessarily a safer set up however.....
on bigger or heavier cars the lean and tire squeel is a signal....
the beginnings of 'breakaway' or loss of grip...

when stiffer bars or tires are added the vehicle feels better BUT the breakaway point becomes less progressive.....
so loss of control happens faster and in a shorter range.....
with fewer clues it is coming...
this takes great driver skill to control...

in the wet, snow, cold or at higher speeds
cornering will now give fewer signals of the impending disaster....

this is just my basic understanding....
and wt transfer, slip angles, center or rotation,
tire compounds, sway bar bushing material, and so on add to this issue.

the ss is a great straight line mover.....
but in the turns it's still a boat....
like most cars over 3500lbs.....
on the track
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:31 PM   #23
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That makes sense to me. I may still investigate bars for the Burb since I feel I have a good sense of the trucks ability.

I will say this in terms of the SS, GM put some, well, GM bean counter bars on the SS for its drivetrain, I felt it was weak and agree, the car isn't that great on manuvers, until one day I came across a fellow SSer that upgraded his bars.

Front bar upgraded to GMs early 70s front bar from the "F" body that is a 32mm bar (vs 30mm stock).

In the back, the stock 26mm bar is replaced with the Herb Adams, I believe it's a 38mm bar.

I've driven this setup and I will tell you that the car feels like it lost about 1000lbs and rides as if it was a Honda on sharp turns. I liked it so much that I bought both bars off eBay. Unlike the 3/4 trucks most of which don't have LCAs, the LCAs that we on the car, there was NO way the stock stamped LCAs would be able to deal with the forces of a 38mm bar. I found pics of someone who tried the 38mm bar on stock LCAs and it just tore them up....guy was lucky to still be alive as the bar just tore the grade 8 bolts right out of the LCA like you'd poke a hole in a pop can.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to getting these on the SS and get that feel like a Honda on the higher speed turns...all of which has little to do with the thread that the user needs sway control and will most likely not add a 38mm bar to his RX!
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Old 06-01-2006, 11:56 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnostic
We have a 16' Bambi CCD pulled by an RX 400 Lexus h (the hybrid.)
Without any sway control the thing tracks beautifully. We went through some wind, semi's passed us and I don't see any problem. Am I living in a dream world? Does it have to have some kind of sway control?

Gnostic
i too have a smaller a/s trailer.what i can tell you about the load leveler bars ,vs towing without is that they apply the load to the pavement.in other words the trailer tracks the same ,bounces with the tow vehicle as a single unit.for instance,when you hit a bump,or when the trailer goes over one it can hop itself back in line till the tail wagging the dog resolves itself and the kink irons itself out and ,usually in a flash things are back in line.i mean any shorter vehicle will be a bit twitchier than longer wheelbase vehicles at times,at worst if you will but i must say,the smaller a/s trailers are the ultimate in tow trailers.you will not experience the weightless hop of a smaller lighter and possibly even empty as well trailer,that you may rarely at worst experience depending on road conditions and these discerning factors and other variables such as speed,wind etc with a bumpy road and no load levelers.although i dont always use the hitch bars on my 19ft globetrotter around town and on short trips etc ,i do prefer to use them on longer trips.it is a more predictable bounce,with the hitch bars,and a more tightly tied and true tracking between the trailer and tow vehicle with the feel of a single all one unit kind of feel that you will experience,hitches vary,and mine is an older trailer,but the same is true to yours.e mail me if you like.
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Old 06-02-2006, 12:00 AM   #25
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Rivet load leveler hitch bars

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnostic
We have a 16' Bambi CCD pulled by an RX 400 Lexus h (the hybrid.)
Without any sway control the thing tracks beautifully. We went through some wind, semi's passed us and I don't see any problem. Am I living in a dream world? Does it have to have some kind of sway control?

Gnostic
i sent you a private message and 2 e mails regarding this,th reply and quotes did not post and contents were lost. if you did not receive you can e mail me at wunderful62@sbcglobal,net and lrt me know what you got,
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Old 06-02-2006, 05:09 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silvertwinkie
Mike. If you are saying you called Lexus and Airstream corporate, then I'd be shocked that Airstream would say sure. I've spoken with a number of folks at the factory, and most of what they have told me in my dealing with the few folks I had spoken with on the subject at the factory, mirror what's been said here on this thread. If you are talking about a sales person, well, that's pretty easy to figure out why they would say sure. Most here have heard the same song and dance.

The VW you mention has a higher listed tow capacity than the RX, a slight longer wheelbase than the RX, and for a 16', would be no problem at all. Good up to about a 22' RV at about 5600lbs IMHO. Given the numbers you've posted and deducting those numbers from your overall listed tow rating (which is how an actual tow rating is calculated), also taking into consideration fuel (about 15 gallons@ 5lbs a gallon), your actual tow rating would be in the ballpark 2925lbs. If the Airstream is loaded to or near capacity (water, LP, batteries, food, clothes) you will have without question exceeded the tow rating of the RX.

I don't mean this to sound like a jerk or a towing snob, but I get the impression that this may be your first RV, or your first exp towing given that you have questions about weight distribution, etc. The questions are great questions, however, most of the folks on this thread so far have said pretty much the same thing. Some of the folks that have responed here, I've met personally and some have even more towing exp than I do (and I have about 13 years under my belt). I hope you don't run into any issues with the setup you've chosen. But the numbers as presented with known specs do not suggest a good match.
Hi,
I had talked with a tech person at Airstream and several tech people at several different Lexus dealers, including one in Michigan, and a tech person from Lexus Corp. (I was given the number by the dealer we ultimately bought our car from.)
The minefield of information is a narrow path between the corporate legal department fearful of lawsuits and the dealer who wants to make a sale, so I appreciate your input.
Fortunately, all of this can be solved by getting another vehicle for towing. I like Lexus' LX 470. Any suggestions?
Our only other experience with living on the road was with a "Vixen." Our partners and my wife and I drove two of them across the country while doing a job. It was wonderful and the people you meet are great.
Thanks again for the information. My wife and I would like to live a little longer if possible, so your wisdom from experience has a nice ring to it.
"Let experience be our only guide, for reason will mislead us."
...The delegate from Deleware to the Constitutional Convention.

Mike G
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Old 06-02-2006, 05:49 PM   #27
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I'm totally floored by what you've been told and am speachless as to why, given this day and age of lawsuits someone would make such a suggestion given the basic math doesn't add up.

The Touareg would be similar to the fit and finish you are use to in the RX, yet depending on model, you could tow even up to a 22', though some do tow 25's with them which I'm not comfortable with that large with that vehicle.

If domestic is an option, a Tahoe with a 5.3L and DOD (displacement on demand) or it's GMC counterpart. Of course none of these will get the MPG you're use to with the hybrid RX.

If an interior that doesn't have as many amenities, the Trailblazer is a great low cost tow vehicle depending on model and can cost thousands less, but again, not as decked out as a Touareg or an '07 Tahoe. Those are a few that come to mind off the cuff, if you have others that you might be interested in, bounce a few off the forum. You'll have no problem getting feedback!
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Old 06-02-2006, 06:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnostic
Fortunately, all of this can be solved by getting another vehicle for towing. I like Lexus' LX 470. Any suggestions?
Our only other experience with living on the road was with a "Vixen."
well the lx470 is body on frame,
bigger/heavier and rated to 6500lbs,
so a bambi would be easy to tow....
but you should still have anti sway of some sort...

wow a vixen.....
living in the northwest,
i almost replaced my airstream moho
with a vixen in the 80s......very cool,

but man am i glad i didn't buy that white elephant...

cheers
2air'
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