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Old 09-23-2009, 01:33 PM   #1
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Another Reality Check!

OK, just got the tongue weight scale and ran out to see what I'm at. WOW, 1,000 lbs. with the trailer almost empty What the *#!^ Then I started to rethink my CAT scale reading of 6,700 lbs. for the trailer loaded and hitched to the TV. Hmm, 6,700 PLUS around 1,100 to 1,200 lbs. loaded tongue weight equals 7,800 to 7,900 lbs. total weight? Max is supposed to be 7,300 lbs.? Doing some serious head scratching here, I have to get rid of 5 to 600 lbs.? Wait a minute, if my thinking is right, doesn't the w/d put 1/3 of the tongue weight back on the axles? sooo, that would mean instead of the 6,700 lbs trailer weight, it is actually around 6,317 lbs.? plus the 1,100 to 1,200 lbs. tongue weight for a total of 7,417 to 7,517 lbs.? Is my thinking right on this? and if so, is being 117 to 217 lbs. over the max allowed OK? or do I have to figure out what to leave behind on our next trip. Also, need to know about the tongue weight being over the 1,000 lbs. that is supposedly max. for this trailer. Is that OK or again do I have to shift things more to the back to keep it at the 1,000 lbs.?

Thanks and I hope it makes sense, Bob
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Old 09-23-2009, 01:56 PM   #2
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Old 09-23-2009, 02:04 PM   #3
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Greetings from the Florida Panhandle

I have an '05 25FB that I unhitched and weighed indepandently. She tipped the scales at 7400# ready to camp with empty black and gray tanks, and a 3/4 full freshwater tank.

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Old 09-23-2009, 02:35 PM   #4
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...................................Wait a minute, if my thinking is right, doesn't the w/d put 1/3 of the tongue weight back on the axles? .................................................. ............................................Thanks and I hope it makes sense, Bob
Is there anyway you can check the tongue weight scale against a known weight? That would be the first thing I would look at.

Now, I have a question. This is the second time this week I have read about weight distribution hitches transferring tongue weight to the trailer axle. As hard as I try to visualize it, I can't. As I see it it the weight distribution bars use leverage to raise the rear of the truck and force the front down, To me this in effect is transferring tongue weight from the trucks rear axle to the trucks front axle. Would someone please try to explain to me what force is increasing the trailer axle weight?
Thanks,
Confused Ken
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Old 09-23-2009, 02:42 PM   #5
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From what I understand, you have the fulcrum point at the hitch. At this point there is 2/3 of the tongue weight being transferred to the TV and where the chains hook up is where the other 1/3 is being applied back to the trailer. JMHO

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Old 09-23-2009, 02:49 PM   #6
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I have an '05 25FB that I unhitched and weighed indepandently. She tipped the scales at 7400# ready to camp with empty black and gray tanks, and a 3/4 full freshwater tank.

Brian
From what you have, I guess I'm right in there. The only diff. being my fresh water is only about 1/3 full, but I think the Safari weighs less unloaded. Any idea what your tongue weight is?

Bob
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Old 09-23-2009, 02:51 PM   #7
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Is there anyway you can check the tongue weight scale against a known weight? That would be the first thing I would look at.

Now, I have a question. This is the second time this week I have read about weight distribution hitches transferring tongue weight to the trailer axle. As hard as I try to visualize it, I can't. As I see it it the weight distribution bars use leverage to raise the rear of the truck and force the front down, To me this in effect is transferring tongue weight from the trucks rear axle to the trucks front axle. Would someone please try to explain to me what force is increasing the trailer axle weight?
Thanks,
Confused Ken
Much like a wheel barrow, some weight goes to the front wheel and some goes to your feet. In the case of a trailer there is a lifting process much like the wheel barrow that transfers the weight to both the tow vehicle and trailer wheels. Consider the the entire process a balancing act. Remember that in some cases the trailer is also in a nose down position so in effect you are forcing the rear end of the car up thus transferring some weight to the front wheel of the car. At the same time the trailer hitch is being raised transferring weight to its wheels.
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Old 09-23-2009, 03:14 PM   #8
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From what I understand, you have the fulcrum point at the hitch. At this point there is 2/3 of the tongue weight being transferred to the TV and where the chains hook up is where the other 1/3 is being applied back to the trailer. JMHO

Bob
Thanks Bob,
I am going to have to draw a picture. I took a couple years of engineering before I changed my major so I should be able to figure this out. You brought up a few points, I have never thought about. I have always assumed the GVW of the trailer was the weight on the axles and it was the TV's job to handle the tongue weight. Now, I need to mull that over.
I wonder what type of hitch you have. The subject of tongue weight came up to me recently, when it occurred to me that the ProPride 3P was adding a significant amount of weight to the tongue when the trailer is unhitched. Now I need to figure out what happens to that when hitched.
Still confused but getting better,
Ken
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Old 09-23-2009, 03:14 PM   #9
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Think of picking up a wheel-barrow. The handles work like the spring bars for your WD hitch.

I know...no tongue weight involved there, so picture this: you're leaning on the back edge of the wheelbarrow with your chest...(its a really tall sitting wheelbarrow)...feet still on the ground, supporting most of your weight. pull up on the handles...weight is shifted to your feet, and the front axle. this is what your wd hitch is doing. the amounts that get shifted, and in which direction, depends on the distance between the tow vehicle's rear axle and the trailer axles, and the location of the ball.
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Old 09-23-2009, 03:23 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by jcanavera View Post
Much like a wheel barrow, some weight goes to the front wheel and some goes to your feet. In the case of a trailer there is a lifting process much like the wheel barrow that transfers the weight to both the tow vehicle and trailer wheels. Consider the the entire process a balancing act. Remember that in some cases the trailer is also in a nose down position so in effect you are forcing the rear end of the car up thus transferring some weight to the front wheel of the car. At the same time the trailer hitch is being raised transferring weight to its wheels.
Thanks Jack,
It is sinking in now a bit.

And Bob,
As soon as I understand the problem, I will let you know if I agree with your math. In the meantime I'll be quiet so someone can answer your question instead of mine.
regards,
Ken
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Old 09-23-2009, 04:32 PM   #11
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... Is my thinking right on this?...
hi bob

the short answer to your question is NO.
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i have read your MAIN thread on this issue...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...uts-56285.html

and the data is NOT interruptible by mere mortals.

while your efforts to get data are commendable, i've got NO FAITH that any of it was obtained correctly.

it is also CONFOUNDED by the tv in question which has AUTO leveling that fiddles with the axle loads continuously...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...mph-45618.html

we've also discussed w/d and whirled peas in your thread from LAST SUMMER...

and there is some useful pixels therein (stop reading at post #50):

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...ion-44825.html
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no offense, but you need to repeat the weighing exercise...

and take someone along who can help with the process.

i volunteer funkill, she loves numbers, and managed to sort this stuff out recently herself.

see HER thread on the issue or mine.
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it is UMPOSSIBLE to accurately measure REAL tongue mass (tm) without UNHOOKING the trailer and LEVELING it.

tm can be estimated with a VALID set of other measures, but that is not much better than just using the published GUESSES.

and just to CONFUSE you more, the HITCH mass counts against tv payload NOT tongue mass...
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wheel barrels, beer barrels, bring out your dead...

w/d is NOT like a wheel barrel. that is a tired simple analogy but NOT accurate.

it's really more of a metaphor (representing something that IS with something that is NOT) to be avoided.

and confuses the way w/d really functions, with a manure tool (ok, maybe it IS a good comparison)

the w/b is a type of lever, and w/d bars use leverage,

but with the fixed points and forces used coming from ENTIRELY DIFFERENT classes of leverage and force.

for example THIS video explains how a w/b is used, and what some forum members haul...

YouTube - Monty Python-Bring out your dead!

for those of you that want betta info try here...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/610748-post83.html

for more pain read the full thread, but the good posts come later...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...tml#post610748

more info is HERE (especially posts 30-70) but hey it's just a wheel barrel, right?

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...rol-17986.html

take home message the cup PUSHED DOWN on the ball and w/d bars ADD to that DOWNWARD force with ROTATIONAL force (torque),

but they don't LIFT it like handles on a w/barrel...

Quote:
Originally Posted by w7ts View Post
... As hard as I try to visualize it, I can't...
hi ken, you are having trouble visualizing because it is LARGELY not true as typically described.

the torque (rotational/twisting force) at the ball, created by the w/d bars works forward via the tv frame, to lift up and push down as you described.

since the trailer tongue isn't ANCHORED to the ground, a much smaller but identical action is directed reward into the trailer.

SOME of that results in added mass at the trailer ground contact point.

HOW MUCH depends on a lot of variables like frame length and STIFFNESS, number of axles, position of axles and so on...

SHORT single axle trailers will see more transfer and LONG multiaxle trailers LESS.

"2/3s forward and 1/3 rear" is the often posted expectation but about as real as the barrel that carries the holy grail.

nick's thread explains what happens going forward. if you understand JUST write the equations sbrawkcad and insert.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f464...sis-19236.html

i'm no engineer but the math (and diagrams) that does explain it in engineer lingo is available

and so are sticks for eye-poken.
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back to bob and his rig, best of luck but start OVER and get new numbers, then maybe put is ALL in one place

so we aren't playing HOPSCOTCH here, REALITY is confusing enough.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-23-2009, 04:41 PM   #12
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please correct me if i'm wrong.....

i thought that with weight distribution, about 1/3 of the tongue weight stays with the trailer and 2/3's transfers to the tow veh.

the trailer "loses" weight (2/3) that gets added to the tow veh.
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Old 09-23-2009, 05:06 PM   #13
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Be afraid, be very, very afraid....

In response to 2airs' post #11 -

I understand it -

I agree with it -

I am extremely concerned about the above 2 statements.....

Welcome back!
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Old 09-23-2009, 05:08 PM   #14
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please correct me if i'm wrong...
ok, you are corrected....

and when the headache subsides, go read.

cheers
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