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Old 09-23-2009, 05:31 PM   #15
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Thumbs down Same old problem..

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Originally Posted by RLS View Post
Max is supposed to be 7,300 lbs.?



http://www.airforums.com/forums/f437...ted-53522.html
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Old 09-23-2009, 05:41 PM   #16
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Old 09-23-2009, 06:13 PM   #17
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Explanation of Scale Weighing

Here are the results of a morning at the local Love's CAT scale.

Not all of the weights will total to 100% ALL of the time - but they are close - I think the differences in the total weights on ALL of the axles are explained be the slight height differences in the tongue height AND the weighing differences in the actual pads and the position of the axles on the pads during the various weighs.


Tow Vehicle (Excursion) Total Weight (unloaded) - 7600 lbs

front Ex axle - 3840 lbs 38 1/4" rear Ex axle - 3760 lbs 39 1/2"

Trailer Total Weight 7320 lbs.

Front Trailer Axle 3180 lbs, Rear Trailer Axle 3280 lbs, Tongue Weight 860 lbs

With the tongue dropped on the hitch and the weight distribution NOT engaged

Front Ex axle 3060 lbs 39", Rear Ex axle 5520 lbs 36 5/8", Total Trailer 6,280 lbs

Next, bring the Hensley up to the #1 position (this is like having 5 chain links in tension)

Front Ex axle 3540 lbs 37 1/2", Rear Ex axle 4880 lbs 38", Total Trailer 6,460 lbs

With this first position I added 480 lbs to the front, and brought the front down 2".

I took 640 lbs off of the rear, raised the rear about 1 1/2" AND added 180 lbs to the trailer weight, a bit more than the 1/3 and 2/3 ratio (1 to 3.556 actually).

Next, with the Hensley brought up to the #2 position (comparable to having 4 links in tension on a chain type WD system)

Front Ex axle 3640 lbs 37 1/2", Rear Ex axle 4700 lbs 38 1/4", Total Trailer 6,460 lbs
I took 180 lbs off of the rear and added 100 lbs to the front, trailer weight remained the same - now, I know these numbers do not add up, I am just reporting the numbers as I recorded them - but - the numbers ARE establishing a pattern.

Next, with the Hensley brought up to the #3 position (comparable to having 3 links in tension on a chain type WD system)

Front Ex axle 3780 lbs 37 1/2", Rear Ex axle 4520 lbs 38 1/4", Total Trailer 6,560 lbs
I took another 180 lbs off of the rear axle and added 140 lbs to the front axle, this setting added another 100 lbs to the trailer axles.

I hope this explanation of a "typical" scale weighing clears things us a bit.

Don't expect for everything to "add up".

Measurement of the front and rear body wheel wells IS important as a first cut to bringing about the original weight back to the steering axle.

Remember, the more rear overhang you have on your Tow Vehicle the more important it is to add back the original weight to the front axle (the rear axle acts as a fulcrum to take weight off of the front when the trailer tongue weight is dropped all of the way back at the ball).

Can't explain the front wheel well not changing - could well be that I mis-measured one or more of the readings.

Like I said, the readings are what they are, the one obvious thing is that the more tension that I put on the Weight Distributing bars the more weight I add to the trailer and the front axle, AND more weight is removed from the rear axle.

The proportion of weight moved to the trailer axles will certainly change with the differences of rear overhang from vehicle to vehicle.

Total weight transferred in my case from the bars totally relaxed to the full "up" # 3 position was 1,000 lbs removed from the rear axle, 720 lbs added to the front axle, and 280 lbs added to the trailer weight, or a 1 to 2.6 proportion.

The importnt thing was I brought my TV back to "level", added enough weight to the front to where I have almost the same weight on the steering axle as before hooking up the Sovereign, and, most importantly, I KNOW the weights of everything.

Getting the weights (and comparing them to the manufacturers rating of your Tow Vehicle and AS) is just TOO cheap and TOO simple to forgo this simple safety procedure.

Please post your findings -

Tow safe -

Stream on -
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Old 09-23-2009, 07:18 PM   #18
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Quote:
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:18 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
I saw that when posted, and I thought Airstream never cuts corners!

2air', I do understand about the % loads to the axles being diff. depending on vehicle and trailer specs. and how the 1/3 to 2/3 tongue load is pure speculation. Thanks for getting me to understand it better. I do think that I do have some honest weights though. The tongue weight I just did today using the Sherline trailer scale. So that 1,000 lbs. IS correct with trailer not loaded. Trailer is level. The loaded tv with a full tank of gas, w/d shank with head installed, not connected to trailer, weighs 3,100 front, 3,140 lbs. rear. The tv hitched to the trailer weighs 7,140 lbs. The trailer hitched to the tv weighs 6,700 lbs. The tv diff. between being hitched and not is 900 lbs! This is why I originally was asking if this kind of tongue load is OK

Bob
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Old 09-23-2009, 08:25 PM   #20
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Bob - man, you're performing an awful lot of mental/physical gymnastics to get this pulled together. I don't exactly understand what you're trying to accomplish, but I feel for you! As I'm sure time and money are as precious to you as anyone. I looked for alternatives but finally realized that just going to the scales and performing the (5) different weigh-ins was the easiest, cheapest and most effiecient manner for me. After roughly 4 hours of work, $50 (plus gas for the 35 mile round trip), I know pretty good *where I'm at* and my limitations - both for my TV and TT...

Wishing you luck -

Thanks 2air' for the vote of confidence - I think. I think it was a vote of confidence. Sometimes I live in a fantasy world. But only when I'm safe at home!

Laura
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Old 09-23-2009, 09:04 PM   #21
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yes laura it was kudos your way...

plus i love the explodin' flame shooting emoticon...
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ok bob

the tongue weighed UNhitched and level is 1000 lbs...

and you wanna know if that is OK?

YES it is.
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don't have the exact specs for 04 at hand but here are ALL of the 05s...

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f296...res-27055.html

(a/s UPgraded the axle rating in late 05 so your 04 may be LESSER rated)

so assuming a MAX/gvwr of ~8000 lbs, 1000 lbs on the tongue is 12.5%

and if the gvwr is lower, say 7200 lbs, the 1000 lb tongue is still ~14%.

the prevailing notion is a tongue mass at 10-15% makes for stable towing.

(lets not discuss IF that is correct or HOW that % was derived, it's covered elsewhere)

there is no posted LIMIT on how much a modern stream tongue may weigh...

no doubt there IS a max, but we OWNERS don't know what it is.
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your tv apparently weights 6240? with 3100 at the steering axle and 3240 on the drive axle.

AFTER hookup the tv weighs 7140 is this with the w/d bars TOTALLY RELAXED?

if so, then the difference is 900 lbs, which is pretty close to the scale reading of 1000 lbs for the tongue.

so it appears the tongue is around 900 to 1000 lbs, which is OK by the 10-15% guide.

otoh IF the 7140 (tongue 900) for the tv is with bars TENSIONED...

then that suggests your 1000 lb tongue is 900/100 distributed to the tv/trailer.

which is STILL ok by the % guide.

does that make sense?
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YOUR goal with the w/d bars is to MAINTAIN the tv STEERING axle at the original 3100 lbs measured UNhitched.

keeping AT LEAST that much forward on the steering axle maintains NORMAL steering and front grip for breaking.

it is best to do that measuring and adjustment JUST LIKE 87MH has outlined so clearly in his post.

at some scales it is necessary to pull off then back ON for new weights, others can reset without moving.

when you go back to get the data and make hitch adjustments ASK the scale operator about this.
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now as to IF or HOW MUCH over the axle rating your trailer may be...

determine the axle rating accurately (check the trailer tag or axle tags) and REMOVE stuff as needed.

you may be able to transfer some items to the truck bed but that depends on PAYLOAD and axle rating for the truck.
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on most of the multi axle streams and some of the singles, the axle rating is only a tad less or equal to the gvwr

they use magic equations to discount UNspring mass as counting against the axle ratings,

they may not count tongue mass as OVER the axles either on some units...

i am NOT suggesting that is good thinking or good design but it is apparently how a/s does it...

there are also some famous examples of WHOOPS on models where MUCH lesser axles are used.

there are multiple views of reality in this world.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-23-2009, 09:38 PM   #22
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2air' the specs for a 2004 25 Classic: 7350475H Axle, 3500#, 25ft., GVWR (lbs.)7,300 ("Gross Vehicular Weight Rating (GVWR): is the maximum permissible weight of this trailer when fully
loaded. It includes all weight at the trailer axle (s) and tongue or pin."),"The tongue weight should be in between 10% - 15% of the trailer's total weight, but must not exceed 1,000
lbs."
Maybe this will help in understanding why I was posting these weights. I am over in all areas, and do not have that much "stuff" in side. I just might be over paranoid about the whole thing. Grasshopper is learning!

Thanks all for letting me vent, Bob
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Old 09-23-2009, 09:54 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLS View Post
...I am over in all areas, and do not have that much "stuff" in side...
a/s has produced some REALLY marginal units with CARRY CAPACITIES that r miniscule...

like bambis with 2-300 lbs of loading and 34 classics with as little as 700 lbs for gear AND water.

IF the unit is OVER as you suspect, it would be wise to UPgrade the axles by several 100 lbs.

this would be a good time to consider disc brakes upgrades too.

a/s won't GIVE the unit a higher official rating after the upgrades but functionally it WOULD have more capacity.

the other option is helium... fill the trailer with helium.

cheers
2air'
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Old 09-23-2009, 11:39 PM   #24
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Leave it to 2air to bring the plague into this I thought, but then remembered I was an engineering major for 2 months before I realized that engineering interfered with beer and I was truly a liberal arts major. Now I see it—engineering was like the plague to me and brought about buboes on my brain (a physiological impossibility, but this is about feelings), and so does this thread.

My solution involving no higher math:

So, I messed around with the hitch and got the truck within as close to level as possible with the WD hitch on, thus as much weight transferred to the front axle as possible, and, I got the trailer level too. One problem solved requiring neither calculus nor even algebra, but a lot of patience.

2nd problem, does it weigh too much? Load as little as possible, i.e., tell wife she can't bring everything she wants while bringing enough tools to dismantle a battleship plus everything else important to me and explain to her "these are things we need for safety and if anything goes wrong." Then don't weigh trailer because it is what it is. 2nd problem solved.

3rd problem—what do we actually load in the trailer? This only requires mathematics which I am good it, but keep me away from calculus (engineering school trauma unabated). A couple of years ago we weighed all sorts of things we would bring with us. Adding it all together we came out quite below cargo capacity, even adding 10-20% for things we forgot to add and self deception. I have seen what some people bring (formal clothes, anvils, wood stoves; a whole lot of beer and canned foods, both mostly water and heavy), so I'm thinking we know this corollary: why bring a (heavy) case of beer when beer is readily available on the road?

So it feels right and I don't have to understand the difference between a wheelbarrow and a lever (though they sure look different to me) and I'm sure 2air is right because anyone who remembers "Bring Out Your Dead" is ok with me. Let's load up the tumbrils and tow them too!

All feels right (except for stream of consciousness writing which J. Joyce did better than I). Trailer tows great especially with helium bags installed.

Now resume discussion of rotational forces.

Gene
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Old 09-24-2009, 12:38 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CrawfordGene View Post
.................................................. .................................................. .............................
My solution involving no higher math:

So, I messed around with the hitch and got the truck within as close to level as possible with the WD hitch on, thus as much weight transferred to the front axle as possible, and, I got the trailer level too. One problem solved requiring neither calculus nor even algebra, but a lot of patience.

2nd problem, does it weigh too much? Load as little as possible, i.e., tell wife she can't bring everything she wants while bringing enough tools to dismantle a battleship plus everything else important to me and explain to her "these are things we need for safety and if anything goes wrong." Then don't weigh trailer because it is what it is. 2nd problem solved................................


Gene
Gene,
That is exactly what I have done, and though this discussion has brought some understanding of what is going on, it has convinced me to leave the scale in the garage and weigh UPS packages with it.

This is my third trailer and I don't want it to be the first I weigh.
Thanks to everyone for the explanations.
Regards,
Ken
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