Anderson No-Sway with CAT numbers

[DannyClark]

Posted this in the loooong Anderson thread but thought creating my own thread would get more traction.




All right, I don't know where we stand on this thread, but I remember people asking for a 3pass scale report. I had some time today, so I finally found my way to the closest Cat Scale to me in North Bend, Wa. I'll preface this report by saying that I just bought a new 2017 F250, and I'm still tinkering with ideal ball height. My 26U has the Dexter 3" lift installed, and i've been challenged to find the ideal ball height. The way I have it now, the trailer is riding pretty level, but I've only got 4 threads showing on the chain bolts each side. I was running 7 showing when I was towing the 26U with my previous F150. I do not have any numbers with the F150 unfortunately.

So here goes. I did 6 passes. Yes, they truckers and scale staff weren't happy with me, but it's for science, right? I ended up doing 6 because I screwed up 2 of the first 3, not getting the front axle and rear axle on separate scale plates. I should have read the How To available on this forum again to refresh.

Pass #1
Truck with Trailer utilizing Anderson=
Steer Axle-10,000lbs.
Drive Axle-0lbs.
Trailer Axle-6800lbs
Total Weight-16800lbs.

Pass #2
Truck with Trailer without Anderson
Steer Axle-10060lbs
Drive Axle-0lbs
Trailer Axle-6740lbs
Total Weight-16800lbs

Pass #3
Truck Alone
Steer Axle-8920lbs
Drive Axle-0lbs
Trailer Axle-0lbs
Total Weight-8920lbs

Pass #4
Truck with Trailer utilizing Anderson
Steer Axle-4580lbs
Drive Axle-5400lbs
Trailer Axle-6840lbs
Total Weight-16820lbs

Pass#5
This one was for fun. I shot to get each trailer axle, no Anderson. The rest of the weights will be off because the truck was too far forward to hit the scale plates correctly.
Steer Axle-9440lbs
Drive Axle-3340lbs
Trailer Axle-3380lbs
Total Weight-16160lbs

and lastly:
Pass #6
Truck with Trailer without Anderson
Steer Axle-4440lbs
Drive Axle-5560lbs
Trailer Axle-6780lbs
Total Weight-16780lbs


So, now what? What's this telling me? It does show the Anderson shifting weight around, but not allot. Admittedly, as I noted above, I don't have a ton of tension on the system due to ride level. I could drop the ball down one set of holes and then tension the system to try to correct the ride leveling, but that would put the ball and my trailer couple level with each other. Anderson recommends the ball should me mounted 1" to 1.5" above level trailer coupler height prior to hooking up and tensioning. Anyway, now to sit back and let you pro's educate this rookie:-).

[SteveSueMac]

Hi there - kudos for giving this a shot! I'm not a pro so take this with a grain of salt.

I think only passes 4 and 6 are usable here which means at least one more is needed to tell you anything meaningful.

I say this because passes 1-3 have a boatload on one axle and nothing on the other axle of your TV. Thats either entirely impossible or you deployed an anti-gravity device the military needs to know about ASAP! [emoji3]

Pass #5 is similar with almost 5 tons on the steer and 1.5 on the drive. You're on the platform incorrectly.

Check out the CAT Scales website to review proper positioning. You got a couple of them right - you definitely want one with your Andersen engaged (you'll have a steer, drive, trailer and total number like you do on #4), you want one like #6 which has your truck and trailer without the Andersen applied (same 4 numbers: steer, drive, trailer and total) and you need one that's just the truck alone (steer, drive and total). From those 3 tickets you can calculate how much weight gets lifted off the front/steer axle of your truck when you attach the trailer to it, and how much of that weight gets restored by applying the WD of the Andersen.

So you're close - with just 4 and 6, it looks like you moved 180# back to your steer axle with the Andersen applied. The only way to know if that's good or needs more work is to know the truck's steer axle by itself without the trailer and what your truck manual wants in terms of something called FALR (front axle load restoration). With a 250, you might only need 50% FALR so if your trailer pulls 360# off the front and you're restoring 180# you know you're restoring 50%.

So - you're close - can you give it one more shot for those 3 weights with proper placement on the scales?

It can take a while to figure it out and dial it in but in the long run I think you'll be glad you did! Good luck!!

[ROBERT CROSS]

How I do the CAT...it's better to post the tickets

1st TV alone.....


2nd TV & Trailer no WD applied>>>>> 3rd TV & Trailer with WD, LEVEL RIG


Notice that all but 100lbs have been returned to the steering Axle.

You may have to make more than three passes to get the WD right.

Others may disagree>>>> but I'm for getting as much back to the steering axle as possible...100lb light in our case.

A LEVEL RIG IS PARAMOUNT

Bob

[azflycaster]

A good ticket of the truck with no trailer would be good also. That would give a good baseline of the weight distribution of the truck only.

[DannyClark]

Originally Posted by SteveSueMac

Hi there - kudos for giving this a shot! I'm not a pro so take this with a grain of salt.

I think only passes 4 and 6 are usable here which means at least one more is needed to tell you anything meaningful.

I say this because passes 1-3 have a boatload on one axle and nothing on the other axle of your TV. Thats either entirely impossible or you deployed an anti-gravity device the military needs to know about ASAP! [emoji3]

Pass #5 is similar with almost 5 tons on the steer and 1.5 on the drive. You're on the platform incorrectly.

Check out the CAT Scales website to review proper positioning. You got a couple of them right - you definitely want one with your Andersen engaged (you'll have a steer, drive, trailer and total number like you do on #4), you want one like #6 which has your truck and trailer without the Andersen applied (same 4 numbers: steer, drive, trailer and total) and you need one that's just the truck alone (steer, drive and total). From those 3 tickets you can calculate how much weight gets lifted off the front/steer axle of your truck when you attach the trailer to it, and how much of that weight gets restored by applying the WD of the Andersen.

So you're close - with just 4 and 6, it looks like you moved 180# back to your steer axle with the Andersen applied. The only way to know if that's good or needs more work is to know the truck's steer axle by itself without the trailer and what your truck manual wants in terms of something called FALR (front axle load restoration). With a 250, you might only need 50% FALR so if your trailer pulls 360# off the front and you're restoring 180# you know you're restoring 50%.

So - you're close - can you give it one more shot for those 3 weights with proper placement on the scales?

It can take a while to figure it out and dial it in but in the long run I think you'll be glad you did! Good luck!!

Damn it! I thought I had enough Data here to work with lol. As I said, #1 and #2 were messed up because I had both axles of truck on one scale and trailer on another. #3 is truck weight alone. Admittedly full truck weight, not by axle. #5 I did just to get trailer weight on each trailer axle. Due to configuration of scale, that forced me to have the steer axle of the truck not on the scale. But I got the weight on each of the trailer axles. No good? #4 is with Anderson and #6 is without. So I’ve got truck weight, weight on axles with Anderson and weight on axles without Anderson. Plus I’ve got the distribution of weight between the two trailer axles without any weight distribution, in the wild so to speak:-). Still not enough data?!? It’s going to be a while before I can set this up again unfortunately.

Here’s the tickets, in order #1-#6 as I recieved them via email ( I used the app).

Company Name: NA
Tractor Number: 01
Trailer Number: AIRSTREAM
Commodity: FREIGHT ALL KINDS
Date: 11/13/2017
Approx Time: 14:00
Steer Weight: 10000 lb
Drive Weight: 00 lb
Trailer Weight: 6800 lb
Gross Weight: 16800 lb
Ticket Number: 97200433
Fee: $11.00
Original Ticket Number:
Weighmaster: SUSAN COURTRIGHT
Location Information:
233
TA NORTH BEND
I 90 EXIT 34
NORTH BEND WA


Company Name: NA
Tractor Number: 01
Trailer Number: AIRSTREAM
Commodity: FREIGHT ALL KINDS
Date: 11/13/2017
Approx Time: 14:03
Steer Weight: 10060 lb
Drive Weight: 00 lb
Trailer Weight: 6740 lb
Gross Weight: 16800 lb
Ticket Number: 97200434
Fee: $2.00
Original Ticket Number: 97200433
Weighmaster: SUSAN COURTRIGHT
Location Information:
233
TA NORTH BEND
I 90 EXIT 34
NORTH BEND WA


Company Name: NA
Tractor Number: 01
Trailer Number: AIRSTREAM
Commodity: FREIGHT ALL KINDS
Date: 11/13/2017
Approx Time: 14:11
Steer Weight: 8920 lb
Drive Weight: 00 lb
Trailer Weight: 00 lb
Gross Weight: 8920 lb
Ticket Number: 97200435
Fee: $2.00
Original Ticket Number: 97200433
Weighmaster: KATRINA KORRELL
Location Information:
233
TA NORTH BEND
I 90 EXIT 34
NORTH BEND WA


Company Name: NA
Tractor Number: 01
Trailer Number: AIRSTREAM
Commodity: FREIGHT ALL KINDS
Date: 11/13/2017
Approx Time: 14:32
Steer Weight: 4580 lb
Drive Weight: 5400 lb
Trailer Weight: 6840 lb
Gross Weight: 16820 lb
Ticket Number: 97200441
Fee: $2.00
Original Ticket Number: 97200433
Weighmaster: TRISTA SCARBROUG
Location Information:
233
TA NORTH BEND
I 90 EXIT 34
NORTH BEND WA


Company Name: NA
Tractor Number: 01
Trailer Number: AIRSTREAM
Commodity: FREIGHT ALL KINDS
Date: 11/13/2017
Approx Time: 14:39
Steer Weight: 9440 lb
Drive Weight: 3340 lb
Trailer Weight: 3380 lb
Gross Weight: 16160 lb
Ticket Number: 97200444
Fee: $2.00
Original Ticket Number: 97200433
Weighmaster: TRISTA SCARBROUG
Location Information:
233
TA NORTH BEND
I 90 EXIT 34
NORTH BEND WA

Company Name: NA
Tractor Number: 01
Trailer Number: AIRSTREAM
Commodity: FREIGHT ALL KINDS
Date: 11/13/2017
Approx Time: 14:51
Steer Weight: 4440 lb
Drive Weight: 5560 lb
Trailer Weight: 6780 lb
Gross Weight: 16780 lb
Ticket Number: 97200447
Fee: $2.00
Original Ticket Number: 97200433
Weighmaster: TRISTA SCARBROUG
Location Information:
233
TA NORTH BEND
I 90 EXIT 34
NORTH BEND WA


Please don’t take my frustration the wrong way. I appreciate the help. Just hoped I’d gotten this right finally.

Pete

[DannyClark]

And I’ve dug in the manual and into Fords 2017 Towing Guide and haven’t found the FALR yet.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by DannyClark

And I’ve dug in the manual and into Fords 2017 Towing Guide and haven’t found the FALR yet.

Don't fret it....the closer you get to the TV alone and you'll be fine. An extra 100lbs on the FA is good.

As my tickets show... what you need is TV alone front & rear axle.

Tow vehicle & trailer no WD TV frt & rear axle trailer axle

Then a third weight with WD set and all three weights.

It appears from your tickets that your having trouble getting set up correctly on the scale pads.

Bob

[DannyClark]

So if I understand correctly,

#4 is my tow vehicle and trailer with WD front axle/rear axle/trailer axles.
#6 is my tow vehicle and trailer with no WD front axle/rear axle/trailer axles.

So all I’m missing is tow vehicle with front and rear axle weights-no trailer. If so, that can be a quick trip back to North Bend to get tomorrow.

Thanks again!

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by DannyClark

So if I understand correctly,

#4 is my tow vehicle and trailer with WD front axle/rear axle/trailer axles.
#6 is my tow vehicle and trailer with no WD front axle/rear axle/trailer axles.

So all I’m missing is tow vehicle with front and rear axle weights-no trailer. If so, that can be a quick trip back to North Bend to get tomorrow.

Thanks again!

Yes, I think that's your situation. Getting the truck alone is a good start to compare notes and see what you have to compare to the two other tickets (4 and 6). It won't be perfect but if you post that here you will get some good insight from folks here.

Ideally, a clean run with the 3 weights Bob mentioned would be best - of you can do that, ensuring you're on the scales correctly, that will get you the best base data but good enough to start if you can only do the trick for now.

Another tip is to start with the 3 weights as Bob described B.B. it note he suggested you may need more than 3 to dial it in. The tip there is to do the 3 and then add a few with more and more weight distribution applied - I think on the Andersen that's accomplished by tightening the rubber bushings? This will show the impact of a few extra rotations of the wrench on the amount of weight returned to your steer axle.

This actually gets fun for me! Took a while to get it but I eventually got a good baseline that I could work with then a check once a year to be sure I'm still getting it in the zone and happy camping! [emoji3]

You'll get it figured out!!

[RandyNH]

So your truck weighs 8920
Your trailer weighs 7900
Your tongue weight is 1060
You restored approx 180 back to front axle
Your attempt 5 is interesting, whereas most scales are a slight incline to scale level, you had your truck off the front of the scale, so down a slight incline, thus pulling the nose down slightly and yet your trailer axle split still shows your rear axle sightly heavier than the front, to me this indicates that you should drop your ball one hole and then setup your Anderson, equal or slightly more on front is desired, more on rear equals easier sway, although yours are extremely close

The other way you can test for yourself is with a tape measure, measure your wheel wells unloaded, and your trailer frame level, between wheels and at tongue, load up measure again, connect Anderson and measure again. When I do these measurements, I like to go to a big box store and use their loading docks, the concrete is almost always level. In between measurements I like to roll forwards and backwards to settle everything. You should get as close to level as possible

Once you have your measurements where you think you want them, then it would be worth another drive to the scales to confirm the numbers

Your 250 alone weighs 900lbs more than my 350 diesel, wow that's really heavy what do you have on it?

Good luck, keep us posted

[DannyClark]

Thanks guys. I’ll keep working on it. Couple points of clarification. On run #5 the front tires were barely off the scales, and the departure ramp was a bit further up, so the truck was pretty much level, but the tape measure method is a good suggestion. I’m curious about the F250 vs F350 observation. I do have the the 2017 6.7 Powestroke Crewcab Platinum Fx4. In the truck I had my dog and enough firewood to simulate my wife who’s away. In the back in have my Champion Generator, tire chains, Solo Basecamp, various tools, folding chairs, etc. Car and Driver has the curb weight at 8300lbs.

[pteck]

Great information. Really helps us quantify what's going on.

That said, I think we're analyzing the Anderson with the wrong lens/perspective.

Classically, WD could be practically measured and setup via weight return back to the front axle. It worked like a seesaw, where upwards tension on the bars, directly translated to an opposite loading force on the front axle.

The Anderson doesn't completely work this way, as it applies tension in the horizontal direction.

So what does this mean? The goal of WD is not primarily to restore weight to the front axle as most believe. That is part of the consequence, but since we’re use to “old school” weight distribution, that’s the measure we’re looking for. The real goal of WD is to project the tongue load forward of the ball! Ideally projected on or ahead of the rear axle, within the wheelbase.

The analogy would be loading a really really heavy box – we all know that it’s better to position that box within the wheelbase, rather than hanging it off the back. It’s more stable when that weight is supported within the 4 wheels, because hanging it outside of the wheelbase is unstable as it leverages weight off the opposite end. But it doesn’t have to be very ahead of the rear axle for it to be effective! Take 5th wheels for example. They put just about all the tongue weight right on the rear load axle.

Another way to think about this is suspension bridge vs cantilever. Bridge being that we have to support the load at the tongue and project that load onto the axles without it sagging too much. The Anderson is the suspension vs WD bars as cantilever. Both are very viable ways to supporting that hitch and projecting it out to the footings (axles).

A cantilever setup relies on counterbalance (weight restored at front axle). A suspension bridge gets its stability from anchoring in tension rather than counterbalance.

[SSquared]

If you make a trip with just the tow vehicle to get that extra weighing done, keep in mind how full your fuel tank is. Ideally, you would fill up the tank every time you weigh the rig. That gives you consistency between outings, and gives you the "worst case" (greatest load) on your tow vehicle weight.

If you don't have the same amount of fuel, remember that as you evaluate your numbers.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by pteck

Great information. Really helps us quantify what's going on.

That said, I think we're analyzing the Anderson with the wrong lens/perspective.

Classically, WD could be practically measured and setup via weight return back to the front axle. It worked like a seesaw, where upwards tension on the bars, directly translated to an opposite loading force on the front axle.

The Anderson doesn't completely work this way, as it applies tension in the horizontal direction.

So what does this mean? The goal of WD is not primarily to restore weight to the front axle as most believe. That is part of the consequence, but since we’re use to “old school” weight distribution, that’s the measure we’re looking for. The real goal of WD is to project the tongue load forward of the ball! Ideally projected on or ahead of the rear axle, within the wheelbase.

The analogy would be loading a really really heavy box – we all know that it’s better to position that box within the wheelbase, rather than hanging it off the back. It’s more stable when that weight is supported within the 4 wheels, because hanging it outside of the wheelbase is unstable as it leverages weight off the opposite end. But it doesn’t have to be very ahead of the rear axle for it to be effective! Take 5th wheels for example. They put just about all the tongue weight right on the rear load axle.

Another way to think about this is suspension bridge vs cantilever. Bridge being that we have to support the load at the tongue and project that load onto the axles without it sagging too much. The Anderson is the suspension vs WD bars as cantilever. Both are very viable ways to supporting that hitch and projecting it out to the footings (axles).

A cantilever setup relies on counterbalance (weight restored at front axle). A suspension bridge gets its stability from anchoring in tension rather than counterbalance.

I found this somewhat confusing. I think the Anderson works just the same as other WD hitches, but in a different orientation.

If a WD hitch successfully projects the tongue weight forward (eg to between the axles) then it will as a result restore front axle loading. The two are directly related.

I think it is better to think of the Anderson as providing a torque at the rear of the vehicle, with the torque equal to the tension in the Anderson multiplied by the vertical distance (or offset) between the tension device and the hitch ball. With a traditional WD hitch, the equivalent torque is equal to the tension in the chains multiplied by the horizontal distance (or offset) between the chains and the lever point. Same theory exactly, just rotated 90 degrees.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by jcl

I found this somewhat confusing. I think the Anderson works just the same as other WD hitches, but in a different orientation.

If a WD hitch successfully projects the tongue weight forward (eg to between the axles) then it will as a result restore front axle loading. The two are directly related.

I think it is better to think of the Anderson as providing a torque at the rear of the vehicle, with the torque equal to the tension in the Anderson multiplied by the vertical distance (or offset) between the tension device and the hitch ball. With a traditional WD hitch, the equivalent torque is equal to the tension in the chains multiplied by the horizontal distance (or offset) between the chains and the lever point. Same theory exactly, just rotated 90 degrees.

Yep...... it projects force to the front axle thru horizontal tension as opposed to the WD bars thru vertical spring force. I don't even know what that memes.


Bob

[RandyNH]

I just looked up the specs and you are extremely close to being over your GVWR, the max for a 250 is 10,000lbs, that I found, and you are right up against that loaded and connected. Your ticket shows your at 9980 with WD

The Achilles in your setup, in my opinion, is that FX4 package, that is Ford's soft suspension made for off road comfort, unfortunately it allows for more sag and bounce when trying to control a trailer.

I have the F350XLT 6.7L 4X4 CC 8ft bed w/ 48 gallon tank w/skid plates, scale at 8020lbs new with full tank and me. All those Platinum goodies must really add up!

[PKI]

Pull up a picture of the Anderson. It pulls on the base of the shank/friction mount. That tension is same force as a bar that is bent. Both twist the head upward and receiver down which transfers weight forward. Would not call it a suspension bridge, but understand why you used that example. Pat

https://andersenhitches.com/Catalog/...ion-hitch.aspx

[DannyClark]

The old thread stalled because the opposing team wanted Cat numbers. I’ve been curious and own a unused Reese Dual Cam so I ultimately don’t care either way. If it doesn’t re-distribute weight what’s the point? There’s cheaper anti-friction devices aplenty. I prefer the easy hitching and unhitching, the quiet, the low weight, and the lack of grease all over my clothes, but it’s got to work. So I went and got numbers. Admittedly they aren’t perfect, but it does show that even without an ideal install on the new truck yet, it is transferring weight. Now there are other valid concerns that only time will prove out, but it’s doing what it claims. Admittedly I’m an inexperienced tower. I’ve never owned a TT before so I don’t have a lot of comparisons to make. I did own a enclosed 7x14 cargo trailer and hated towing with it due to sway etc.

As for my f250, Your right. I’ll have to evaluate that. Sad truth is I was on less than half a tank of fuel. I’m under all other relevant numbers (GCWR, Tow Capicity etc), but I’m up against the GVWR. I do have the truck loaded with a lot of tools/generator/spare fuel/firewood/tire chains/camping chairs/and other random camping-full timing madness. Out of curiosity, is your F350 a ‘17?

I was driving on the highway yesterday (to get these weights) and we had a windstorm raging at 60mph winds and she tracked great. I haven’t really had a problem with the Ranchos yet, but it’s also a valid point.

[DannyClark]

Originally Posted by RandyNH

I just looked up the specs and you are extremely close to being over your GVWR, the max for a 250 is 10,000lbs, that I found, and you are right up against that loaded and connected. Your ticket shows your at 9980 with WD

The Achilles in your setup, in my opinion, is that FX4 package, that is Ford's soft suspension made for off road comfort, unfortunately it allows for more sag and bounce when trying to control a trailer.

I have the F350XLT 6.7L 4X4 CC 8ft bed w/ 48 gallon tank w/skid plates, scale at 8020lbs new with full tank and me. All those Platinum goodies must really add up!

On further reading Randy, maybe I’m missing something. GVWR=The gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR), or gross vehicle mass (GVM) is the maximum operating weight/mass of a vehicle as specified by the manufacturer including the vehicle's chassis, body, engine, engine fluids, fuel, accessories, driver, passengers and cargo but excluding that of any trailers

My F250’s GVWR is limited to 10k#’s. My truck, with all the crap In it, is coming it at 8920#’s (pass number 3 above). GCWR is around 22,500#’s for my truck/gearing. Am I reading something wrong? I get tangled in all the acronyms often enough.

[jcl]

Excluding the trailer weight that is on the trailer axles, but including the trailer weight that is on the truck (tongue weight).