About that new Demco Hitch

[Belbein]

My last comment on all of this, and I'm responding directly to you, Andy.

With all due respect, apparently you don't understand how this hitch works. It doesn't work like other hitches, which Demco will tell you. The normal hitching and unhitching procedure is changed to use this hitch. It's not unreasonable for those of us who have experienced the difference between a traditional hitch and this hitch, and now see a recall, to wonder if it's actually safe ... particularly given reports about traumatic unhitching incidents. Clearly from your list of vehicles/trailers you don't have this hitch. So it's pretty offensive to disparage us as snowflakes when you don't know what the issues are.

You said: "it seems we are now a society that cannot be allowed to think for ourselves or deal with problems ourselves we seem to need to find someone to blame for every little thing. Are we all Snowflakes?" No one's talking about who to BLAME. People here who have and use this hitch are talking about what the risk is, who's going to take responsibility to mitigate the problems, and why certain parties have remained silent. That's not the same as some snowflake blame game.

You can make your own decision about safety and mitigating risk. If you want to take a known risk and ignore the red flags, you are welcome to do so. But when I pull out on the road with the trailer, I recognize that I'm the captain of a ship that contains my wife and my dogs and whoever is traveling with us or next to us on the highway. I am responsible for the safety of all of them. If there's a known safety problem with something that makes up that ship, then I'm not a snowflake for wanting to be reasonably certain that it's reasonably safe. If I weren't concerned about it, I wouldn't be a heroic non-snowflake: I'd be a damn fool. And a grossly negligent one.

I don't mean this to be offensive or to be read as attacking you or the similar opinions in any way. Reasonable minds can and do differ about risk and how to evaluate it--and obviously, we assume risk every time we tow. I'm just urging you that if you're going to express an absolute opinion about something like this--and clearly you think that all concerns about it are unfounded--you should first educate yourself about what the issues are, and second, not insult people for being snowflakes who are actually ... well, (to use your words) actually not letting other people do their thinking for them as they are evaluating the risks for themselves.

[KK4YZ]

Originally Posted by Belbein

Not a direct response to you, but to everyone who's debating who the responsible party is. I don't really have time today to get into the argument, but I can't help myself.



I'm a lawyer. I do commercial, contract, consumer litigation, for all sides of the issues. I just want to point this out: we did not buy a Demco hitch. I bought an Airstream that incorporated this hitch. I'm not legally, morally, or ethically responsible for determining that the hitch is safe. Airstream is. The legal analysis would focus on "privity of contract." You engineers will scoff and shake your heads, but this is my area of expertise and any lawyer here will second me on this. Your analysis about third parties and who's responsible.



Demco is certainly to be congratulated for stepping forward to talk with us. It's very unusual, as we all know, for a company to take responsibility. BUT BUT BUT ... there's another company that has primary contractual responsibility to me. They're the ones responsible for putting that hitch on my trailer. And I don't remember seeing any communication from them.

One doesn’t need to be a lawyer to know this. Anyone with a little business sense understands the responsibility of the “prime contractor” or “system integrator”, in this case, Airstream, has to its direct customers (us).

As a retired engineer who has worked around software (used, developed, fixed, sold) for my entire career, I can tell you that software in real-time, mission critical applications makes me just a little antsy. I understand that it’s pervasive and most certainly goes through extensive regression testing.

I can also tell you that the Charlie Foxtrot MCAS situation was most probably driven by management, some of who may not have an engineering background. This is speculation on my part based on past experience.

[BeSerious]

For me, and I suspect many other folks who recently purchased an AS, the most useful info in this thread were the two attached images. (Thanks Demco.)

At a glance, I realized that the hitch on our 2019 NEST does not look like this. So I could quit worrying about when I would be notified of the recall and when I could tow our NEST to the nearest dealer.

Posting a few photos or diagrams of the hitch being recalled very early on, might have reduced the anxiety for many new AS owners.

[rmkrum]

It is highly likely the software design and implementation was farmed out by Boeing to a subcontractor. Then not tested thoroughly before it was put in place in the real hardware.

Management not having a clue about how stuff works, or understanding the consequences when the stuff fails? Nothing new there. Nowadays managers think they can manage anything without being technically astute. I shan’t comment on the stupidity of an MBA and nothing but an MBA managing a technical project. It’s the norm nowadays, and technical folk love to BS people like that.


I spent 45 minutes explaining to a Boeing project manager how our software development lab worked after we had a major failure. That individual had never even set foot in the lab before a $10 part failed and killed all lab operations in the middle of the night. She showed up at 0200 to facilitate fixing the problem. To her credit, she listened, asked pointed questions, and finally understood the issue. We found the issue and corrected it the next day, and re-designed the system to be more resilient. We’re still good friends after we both retired.

That project, by the way, was worth north of 2 billion dollars when it was completed. Not cheap.

[KK4YZ]

Originally Posted by rmkrum

It is highly likely the software design and implementation was farmed out by Boeing to a subcontractor. Then not tested thoroughly before it was put in place in the real hardware.

Management not having a clue about how stuff works, or understanding the consequences when the stuff fails? Nothing new there. Nowadays managers think they can manage anything without being technically astute. I shan’t comment on the stupidity of an MBA and nothing but an MBA managing a technical project. It’s the norm nowadays, and technical folk love to BS people like that.
.

With my limited knowledge of the MCAS system, the System will “fight” the pilot for control of the yoke under certain conditions. That’s not a software “bug”; it’s a feature that someone thought was a good idea. As an engineer I think having the system taking control away from a trained pilot is crazy.

[Shiny16]

Originally Posted by KK4YZ

With my limited knowledge of the MCAS system, the System will “fight” the pilot for control of the yoke under certain conditions. That’s not a software “bug”; it’s a feature that someone thought was a good idea. As an engineer I think having the system taking control away from a trained pilot is crazy.

The system was designed to make a plane that was already stretched to its limits be able to be stretched a bit more. You can thank Boeing management for that along with pressure from operators like Southwest to maintain a single type rating.
It probably would have been fine had they actually released the information about MCAS so that proper training procedures could have been established. In these accidents there simply was no “trained” pilot. At no fault to the pilots involved there never was any training on MCAS.

[Shiny16]

This max MCAs thing really has no similarity to the Demco recall. Demco had a fault in assembly on some of there hitches. A recall was issued and a fix found.
Boeing was aware of the issue with MCAS and did nothing.

[out of sight]

Not only must a hitch withstand static forces but it must deal with dynamic road forces such as the evils of porpoising.

[billrector]

Originally Posted by mikeinca

With all due respect, I don't see how the cost per pound between a Porsche and an Airstream is relevant. Also, although I know that Porsche's profit margin on it's vehicles is among the best in the automotive industry I have no idea what Airstream's profit margin is so I'm not qualified to comment on that comparison. In any event, I'm not sure that profit margin is a reliable metric to determine how you should treat your customers.



Anyway, although in some respects comparing Porsches to Airstreams is a bit like comparing apples to oranges, in one important respect it is not. Porsche is widely considered to be a premium brand and, although some may disagree, it's clear that Airstream also considers themselves a premium brand. That being the case they should be prepared to act like one, especially when a problem arises. That was the only point I was trying to make in bringing up my specific Porsche experience in the first place.

I agree! I don’t care if I am buying a Tiffany ring or a box of Kleenex, I expect good customer service and a product the manufacturer stands behind.

[billrector]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

Folks,



I'm definitely on the sidelines as my 2007 does not have a Demco but I've followed this with interest as the problem was demonstrated via video, comments, Demco replies and the recall and service repair shim.



Demco has stepped up and pulled back the curtain and has been providing assistance and information. Well done.



But one possible 3rd party has been dodging a lot of this and I believe Demco has mentioned their name at least twice.



In manufacturing or even distribution of finished products there is an INCOMING INSPECTION DEPT that has customer acceptance prints, standard reference parts, gauges etc. and their job is to inspect components, raw materials and inspect for QC issues and approve products for use.



Demco made the coupler, Airstream built and sold the completed trailer but was there a third party that made and supplied Airstream with a finished frame with the coupler welded onto the frame ready to build an Airstream?



Looks like they the 3rd party frame maker didn't complete a thorough incoming QC acceptance inspection on the coupler. Did they find the issue and report it? Looks like the credit goes to Lamar on 9/19/19 and his video.



Demco if this is totally out in left field let me know and I'll ask to have it deleted.



Wishing a speedy and safe resolution to all parties.



Gary

As a retired head of several manufacturing companies, I can tell you that most companies companies no longer do incoming inspection. Instead, they typically put the burden on the supplier to both check that the product meets the specification and they will take care of any direct damages.

[billrector]

Originally Posted by Belbein

Not a direct response to you, but to everyone who's debating who the responsible party is. I don't really have time today to get into the argument, but I can't help myself.



I'm a lawyer. I do commercial, contract, consumer litigation, for all sides of the issues. I just want to point this out: we did not buy a Demco hitch. I bought an Airstream that incorporated this hitch. I'm not legally, morally, or ethically responsible for determining that the hitch is safe. Airstream is. The legal analysis would focus on "privity of contract." You engineers will scoff and shake your heads, but this is my area of expertise and any lawyer here will second me on this. Your analysis about third parties and who's responsible.



Demco is certainly to be congratulated for stepping forward to talk with us. It's very unusual, as we all know, for a company to take responsibility. BUT BUT BUT ... there's another company that has primary contractual responsibility to me. They're the ones responsible for putting that hitch on my trailer. And I don't remember seeing any communication from them.

I agree that Airstream is legally responsible. However, they would say that Demco (on their behalf) has communicated well with impacted Airstream owners and Airstream dealers will make the repair for you. What else are you looking for?

[KK4YZ]

Originally Posted by billrector

. ......What else are you looking for?

Probably $400/hr from his next client....😀

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

My first car was a 1966 AMC Ambassador 2 door

Wait. What?!?! [emoji3]

I had a friend who had a Pacer, another who had a Gremlin - me - I went with a Plymouth Duster slant 6 225 - you know, the one with the foot pump for the windshield washer fluid and the dozen spare electrical parts you had to carry since they burned out all the time - and don’t go over a puddle because the distributor cap never really fit and....well, I loved that car!

[SteveSueMac]

Originally Posted by out of sight

Not only must a hitch withstand static forces but it must deal with dynamic road forces such as the evils of porpoising.

Usually - I get nauseous with your posts and think they should come with a safety warning - but I really gotta hand it to you here - this is pretty damn funny! Well played! [emoji122][emoji122][emoji3]

[Margerelli]

All I can say is WHEW, thank heavens we got our 2019 in 2018!! The last thing I needed was to hear one more "now what?" from the DH. We've already had a few hiccups that warranted trips back to the dealer, not ready to go through that again. Poor Sylvie will be packing her bags if things don't simmer down.
And thanks to goransons and out of sight for throwing in a little humor, those were both pretty damn funny!

[66Overlander]

Originally Posted by Belbein

My last comment on all of this, and I'm responding directly to you, Andy.

With all due respect, apparently you don't understand how this hitch works. It doesn't work like other hitches, which Demco will tell you. The normal hitching and unhitching procedure is changed to use this hitch. It's not unreasonable for those of us who have experienced the difference between a traditional hitch and this hitch, and now see a recall, to wonder if it's actually safe ... particularly given reports about traumatic unhitching incidents. Clearly from your list of vehicles/trailers you don't have this hitch. So it's pretty offensive to disparage us as snowflakes when you don't know what the issues are.

You said: "it seems we are now a society that cannot be allowed to think for ourselves or deal with problems ourselves we seem to need to find someone to blame for every little thing. Are we all Snowflakes?" No one's talking about who to BLAME. People here who have and use this hitch are talking about what the risk is, who's going to take responsibility to mitigate the problems, and why certain parties have remained silent. That's not the same as some snowflake blame game.

You can make your own decision about safety and mitigating risk. If you want to take a known risk and ignore the red flags, you are welcome to do so. But when I pull out on the road with the trailer, I recognize that I'm the captain of a ship that contains my wife and my dogs and whoever is traveling with us or next to us on the highway. I am responsible for the safety of all of them. If there's a known safety problem with something that makes up that ship, then I'm not a snowflake for wanting to be reasonably certain that it's reasonably safe. If I weren't concerned about it, I wouldn't be a heroic non-snowflake: I'd be a damn fool. And a grossly negligent one.

I don't mean this to be offensive or to be read as attacking you or the similar opinions in any way. Reasonable minds can and do differ about risk and how to evaluate it--and obviously, we assume risk every time we tow. I'm just urging you that if you're going to express an absolute opinion about something like this--and clearly you think that all concerns about it are unfounded--you should first educate yourself about what the issues are, and second, not insult people for being snowflakes who are actually ... well, (to use your words) actually not letting other people do their thinking for them as they are evaluating the risks for themselves.

Andrew T is an Airstream dealer and has been for decades. He knows more about towing and hitches than almost anyone else around. His opinion, based upon decades of experience, is trusted by droves of Airstream owners.

I am sure Andrew T knows more about the Demco hitch than you do. I am sure he has been in contact with Airstream about it since his dealership will be handling the recall repairs.

[RobdaSlob]

A lot of ranting going on here. “Sigh”.

As a 2020 GT owner I’m affected. I’m generally pleased with the Demco hitch. Granted they have had a quality escape. Not the stain I would want on my name. But to date my hitch has worked well, I have safety chains, emergency brake, a good truck, my own accountability and now per Demco’s guidance any further towing will be to dealer with a lockout.

I’m more dissatisfied with my 3-way fridge that won’t cool on hot days than having to get a hitched checked.

The comparisons to 737max are uneducated and unfair. Having 20 yr and going career in aviation safety and knowledge of the events - well the similarities are few at best.

The one item we have now learned in flying is the same thing AS and Demco are learning - the public only accepts perfection.

[smithcreek]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

I might well be out of line...

Good to see you posting again. Seems like you were gone for a while. I enjoy reading your posts.

[moonriver]

Our 2020 Airstream Classic failed the Demco Coupler Test a few weeks ago when our dealer used the original tool that was sent by Airstream/Demco to determine if our Demco coupler had a defect. Our dealer recently received a box of shim kits and a secondary tool. When I asked about the secondary tool our dealer told me "Your unit requires the shim kit. The original tool sent to the dealers was to determine if there was a defect. With the shim kits, we received a secondary tool that determines if we repair the unit with a shim kit or a new coupler"

[J. Morgan]

Originally Posted by moonriver

Our 2020 Airstream Classic failed the Demco Coupler Test a few weeks ago when our dealer used the original tool that was sent by Airstream/Demco to determine if our Demco coupler had a defect. Our dealer recently received a box of shim kits and a secondary tool. When I asked about the secondary tool our dealer told me "Your unit requires the shim kit. The original tool sent to the dealers was to determine if there was a defect. With the shim kits, we received a secondary tool that determines if we repair the unit with a shim kit or a new coupler"

I'm thinking about this a few days ago. If the ANGLE of the mis welded back wall is not within a specific tolerance, then shimming isn't going to be a good fix.

I'm assuming that this will only affect a small fraction of the units installed, but that will be known soon.