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Old 08-19-2006, 08:11 PM   #61
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Bill ,I had mentioned to you about the throttle plates being shut ,I had said
all the way ,but really there needs to be a bit of opening obviousely,and my
mentioning it was to help with the checks your doing .My point was that if they are being held open somehow too much .Did you have a chance to block the IAC opening?The EGR linear type is all electrically actuated ,the most
common problem with them is a small piece of carbon stuck in the pintle,
which happens all the time on 4.3 V6 astros ,mostly ,it would as you said
idle rough ,not fast.you have Im sure pinched off the brake booster hose?
unless you have hydro boost (no vacuum booster).Well keep us posted ,
and I will get back to you this week unless you locate the trouble sooner.

Scott
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Old 08-19-2006, 08:24 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
Bill ,I had mentioned to you about the throttle plates being shut ,I had said
all the way ,but really there needs to be a bit of opening obviousely,and my
mentioning it was to help with the checks your doing .My point was that if they are being held open somehow too much .Did you have a chance to block the IAC opening?The EGR linear type is all electrically actuated ,the most
common problem with them is a small piece of carbon stuck in the pintle,
which happens all the time on 4.3 V6 astros ,mostly ,it would as you said
idle rough ,not fast.you have Im sure pinched off the brake booster hose?
unless you have hydro boost (no vacuum booster).Well keep us posted ,
and I will get back to you this week unless you locate the trouble sooner.

Scott
Scott, he has Hydroboost, and I was thinking more along the lines of a leaking base gasket for the EGR valve. I am also thinking maybe his throttle linkage or cruise control unit was holding the throttle plates slightly open, like I think you mentioned a while back.
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Old 08-19-2006, 09:20 PM   #63
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Haven't had time to check it all but it's not the TB gasket.
The idle does slow down from 1200+ to around 1000 rpm once the engine starts to warm up. The cruse control also will give WOT if engaged and I think that may be part of the same problem. Just need more time and some way to do the testing in less than 100 deg temps.

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Old 08-20-2006, 07:16 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scottanlily
Bill ,I had mentioned to you about the throttle plates being shut ,I had said
all the way ,but really there needs to be a bit of opening obviousely,and my
mentioning it was to help with the checks your doing .My point was that if they are being held open somehow too much .Did you have a chance to block the IAC opening?The EGR linear type is all electrically actuated ,the most
common problem with them is a small piece of carbon stuck in the pintle,
which happens all the time on 4.3 V6 astros ,mostly ,it would as you said
idle rough ,not fast.you have Im sure pinched off the brake booster hose?
unless you have hydro boost (no vacuum booster).Well keep us posted ,
and I will get back to you this week unless you locate the trouble sooner.

Scott
Scott, I plan to check the EGR gasket today and I will also plug the IAC hole and see if the engine stops running. Seems like it should stop unless it's getting air from somewhere!! The challenge is to find something that will completely plug that odd shaped hole and not be sucked into the intake manifold! One of the first things I checked was the accelerator cable and the cruise control cable and they are slack when at idle, so that is not the problem. I have already visually inspected the throttle plates and they look like they are closed almost all the way. I also tried putting a little "closing" pressure on them with my hand, when at idle, and the engine sputtered and started to stall. I think they are OK and not part of the problem. More later........ Bill, the budding expert on fast idle problems! ......and just about everything else, too!
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Old 08-20-2006, 08:24 AM   #65
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I have been following this thread since it started. Bill, hang in there! When you get this issue resolved you will know more about you engine then you ever wanted to!
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Old 08-20-2006, 11:18 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lebolewis
Scott, I plan to check the EGR gasket today and I will also plug the IAC hole and see if the engine stops running. Seems like it should stop unless it's getting air from somewhere!! The challenge is to find something that will completely plug that odd shaped hole and not be sucked into the intake manifold! One of the first things I checked was the accelerator cable and the cruise control cable and they are slack when at idle, so that is not the problem. I have already visually inspected the throttle plates and they look like they are closed almost all the way. I also tried putting a little "closing" pressure on them with my hand, when at idle, and the engine sputtered and started to stall. I think they are OK and not part of the problem. More later........ Bill, the budding expert on fast idle problems! ......and just about everything else, too!
It looks like you found the problem, the throttle plates are not closing properly. When you pushed them closed, the engine sputtered and almost stalled until the IAC could open and provide idle air. Fix the throttle plates so that they close and you should have your problem fixed.
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Old 08-20-2006, 11:39 AM   #67
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OK guys, I removed that air cleaner housing and filter again, for the 673time!!

FIRST thing I tried was plugging the "Bean Hole", the IAC port on top of the TB where the IAC gets it's air. Getting that odd shaped hole 100% plugged is not easy to do!! After several unsuccessful attempts, I finally tried a Wal-Mart plastic bag, waded part of it it into a small ball and stuffed it in there! Shazam! That works! The engine slowed considerably, but didn't completely stop. I had to hold on to the plastic ball for fear that part of it would get sucked into the intake manifold, so I couldn't get around to see my Tach to read the RPM, but I would guess about 500 RPMS. Keep in mind that 500 RPMs is only about 100 RPMs slower that what's suppose to be normal. When I removed the plastic wad, the engine speed went way up, because the IAC was commanded wide open by the computer. Then the computer closed the IAC, part way, until the idle speed was again 900 RPMs. What does this confirm? Two things, I think. 1) The IAC definately works and follows the command of the computer. 2) the computer thinks that an idle speed of 900 RPMs is OK and adjusts the IAC to keep it at that speed. Now that would suggest that it is NOT a vacuum leak!! For example, if there was a small vacuum leak somewhere and you plugged it, then the Computer would just open the IAC a little more until the idle speed was again at 900 RPMs! RIGHT? Seems to me that is what the computer is now doing. What that then suggest is that it is some other non-vacuum device sending the computer the wrong info that makes it think that 900 RPMs is OK. Right? And I think that I have checked all of the other sensors and they checked good. I havent actually checked the coolant resistance at operating temperture, did it when it was slightly warm, it supposed to be about 200 ohms. I will do that again at running temp, to be certain. Now what does that leave? ......the Computer itself!! That sucker could be the trouble maker! Hold those thoughts and I will come back later.

The SECOND thing I did was check for a vacuum leak around the EGR base gasket. I sprayed WD40 all around and got no indications. NOTHING! At this point I have to say that the WD40 test is a bit questionable in my mind. Why? Because when I sprayed a lot of WD40 directly into the IAC Bean Hole, and that goes directly into the intake manifold, I get a very brief increase in engine speed, not a decrease as was earlier indicated by the person that suggested the WD40 test. The increase only last for about 1 second, and it's gone. Now think about a small vacuume leak around a gasket. You are only going to get a tiny bit of WD40 in there and the engine increase will not likely be noticable, if at all. That's what I have concluded. The unlit propane torch with a small pointed flame orfice sounds like a much better way to verify leaks. That propane would likely speed up the engine a lot! Any comments by those who have tried this?

Some facts: Idles at 900 RPMs in neutral. 700 RPMs in gear with AC on (that's about 100 RPMs faster than normal). So, whatever the cause for the fast idle, it's a small thing....not a big thing. That's why it's so hard to find! I'm still looking.

Oh, There is indeed an idle adjustment on my TBI as Marc suggested in post #9. Can you believe that?!! I can see a threaded stop on the accelerator side, up against the stop on the accelerator where it is attached to the rod that holds the plates in the TB!! The adjusting end of the threaded adjustment is sealed with lead on the front of the TB. It's probably set during the mfg of the TB and then sealed. Not sure I really want to tamper with that! What do you think? Bill
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Old 08-20-2006, 12:20 PM   #68
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Quote:
Now what does that leave? ......
the base timing of the engine.

john
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Old 08-20-2006, 01:43 PM   #69
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the base timing of the engine.

john
And he already checked that, it was perfect. WD40 will INCREASE the engine speed if sprayed into an intake, as it is mildly flammable. I used it for starting fluid for my old 6.9/7.3's that I have had in the past.
Anyway, if you eliminate everything it isn't, what is left should be what it is...
94-95 was the last of the TBI engines, and the last of the pre-OBDII engines, so there shouldn't be a whole lot more in the way of engine controls to check out.
It could be:
Mechanical--
Vacuum leak
Base timing
Binding/stuck throttle linkage
Throttle plates gummed up
Fuel pressure
TPS adjustment
Electrical/electronic--
Broken or corroded wire (power or ground)
Bad connection
Bad or out of range sensor
PCM misprogrammed, or incorrect, or going south

It could be a couple of other things, too, but this is a brief list of the usual suspects. I know you have checked many of them, how many have you not checked out yet?
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Old 08-20-2006, 01:56 PM   #70
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And he already checked that, it was perfect.
according to the "book". haynes manuals have been known to have errors in them!

i would look for an emmissions sticker under the hood and see if it is the same 4 degrees or not. my '88 ran at 0 degrees. worth looking into!

john
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Old 08-20-2006, 02:36 PM   #71
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Timing

Quote:
Originally Posted by john hd
according to the "book". haynes manuals have been known to have errors in them!

i would look for an emmissions sticker under the hood and see if it is the same 4 degrees or not. my '88 ran at 0 degrees. worth looking into!

john
Haynes says to look at the Emission sticker and check what it says for timing and if it differs from their number of 4 degrees before TDC, then use what the Emissions Sticker says. I check and they both say 4 degrees before TDC. It checked "perfect"! Bill
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Old 08-20-2006, 03:13 PM   #72
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Not a vacuun leak!

Hey guys, looking at all the test results, something is now nagging at me about continuing to chase after a vacuum leak somewhere as the cause of my fast idle.

Here is what is nagging me: In a system with no problems, at normal operating tempertures and in neutral, the computer looks at all the sensors and calculates that 700 RPMs is the appropriate engine speed and it is able to set and maintain that speed with the IAC partially open, as long as nothing changes. That is the NORMAL condition. If you put the truck in gear, putting a load on the engine, the computer meters a little more gas and opens the IAC a bit and maintains an idle speed of about 600 RPMs. That's the way it is supposed to work.

My system is working EXACTLY like that, except the idle speed is 200 RPMs higher. And to me, this the big CLUE.......we know the computer is not trying to get the idle speed down any LOWER than 900 RPMs with the truck in neutral, because the IAC is still partially open! If the computer wanted the idle speed lower, it would command the IAC to close, even to a full close, to try and get the idle speed down to 700 RPMs. It's not doing that! It's happy with the idle speed at 900 RPMs! Some sensor(s) is feeding it info that makes it think that 900 RPMs is the right speed. It's not a vacuum problem! Why? If you closed off a small leak to the intake manifold, lowering the speed a bit, the computer would open the IAC a bit to offset it, and bring the idle speed right back up to 900 RPMs! That's what all the evidence says!

Am I wrong? Bill
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Old 08-20-2006, 03:18 PM   #73
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Am I wrong? Bill
I don't think so. That's why I posted the list above. After you cross off stuff you have checked, eventually you will get to the end of the list, or find the problem by checking what is good.
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Old 08-20-2006, 05:17 PM   #74
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Conclusion

Been thinking some more......I call that PERSISTANCE.....my children usually refer to it as "hard headedness"! Oh well, sort of the same thing! Well,... not exactly!

Went back over everything. Am now convinced it's NOT a VACUUM leak. What have we overlooked, not counting the Engine Coolant Temperature sensor (ECT), and I will check that at running temp, tomorrow. Got out the Haynes book, re-read everything again...........and we have missed the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP)! That could be it! I checked it for a VACUUM leak.....but not for correct operation, electrically! Ah Ha! Haynes says it monitors the intake manifold pressure (vacuum) changes resulting from engine load and speed and sends a voltage to the PCM (computer). The PCM uses the signal from the MAP sensor to control fuel delivery and ignition timing, from closed throttle (high vacuum) to wide open throttle (low vacuum). I will check this tomorrow.

Any takers on this is the blinking trouble maker? Bill
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Old 08-21-2006, 02:33 PM   #75
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End of the trail!

One more time:

Checked the Coolant Sensor resistance at operating temp - checked good.

Checked the electrical performance parameters of the Manifold Absolute Pressure sensor (MAP) - checked good.

Sprayed the TB with carb cleaner - no help.

End of the line. It's just no longer worth the considerable sweat required in this hot weather and the frustration to keep looking for the culprit that is causing this engine to idle 150 RPMs too high! It performs great otherwise. So, I will just live with it until it gets a lot worse, if it ever does, then hopefully it will be easier to find.

I think we have eliminated everything, except taking it to a shop with a scanner to see what the scanner says. Even THAT may not point to the trouble maker. If I have to take it in for some other problem, then I will do the scanner thing. That may be sooner than I thought, my power steering pump was making a "whining" sound this morning when I pressed on the brakes! UGH!! Bill
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Old 08-21-2006, 02:53 PM   #76
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odd that you mention your power steering pump.

on my last tbi vehicle i remember there was a sensor or contact that uped the rpm's when the steering was cranked to either stop. this was done to keep from killing the engine when you tried to stall the power steering pump.

possible culprit?

john
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Old 08-21-2006, 04:17 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by john hd
odd that you mention your power steering pump.

on my last tbi vehicle i remember there was a sensor or contact that uped the rpm's when the steering was cranked to either stop. this was done to keep from killing the engine when you tried to stall the power steering pump.

possible culprit?

john
John, where did you see that post where I made comments about the power steering pump? When I sent that post, my last post, it dissappeared and has not shown up on this thread, yet! I wondered what happened to it? Bill
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Old 08-21-2006, 04:45 PM   #78
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John, where did you see that post where I made comments about the power steering pump? When I sent that post, my last post, it dissappeared and has not shown up on this thread, yet! I wondered what happened to it? Bill
Bill,

It shows up as number 75 for me.

Bill
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Old 08-21-2006, 04:47 PM   #79
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bill

you may not see it until you refresh your browser. i see it, post 75 last sentance.

john
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Old 08-21-2006, 06:28 PM   #80
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Website Quirq!!

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Originally Posted by john hd
bill

you may not see it until you refresh your browser. i see it, post 75 last sentance.

john
John, I've discovered an interesting quirk on the site. There are 3 different Display Modes to view this site. 1) Linear, 2) Hybrid, and 3) Threaded. You will find these in the upper right hand part of the screen, just under the pages indicator. I was using the "Hybrid" Mode and my post was missing.....and it still is in that Mode! I switched to "Linear" Mode and it's there. I ran into this once before. Maybe the website Techs should know about this. Bill
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