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Old 04-23-2016, 01:12 PM   #15
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"Believe me, when I say that spring rates can and do make an impact on the payload."

They may make an impact....but they won't change the axle or tire/wheel capacity.

Bob
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Old 04-23-2016, 01:34 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS View Post
Remember.....add on bags only do squat, they do nothing to increase load carry capacity.
Axle and wheel/tire specs determine load.
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They may make an impact....but they won't change the axle or tire/wheel capacity.
Pretty sure I'm saying the same thing. I'm just implying it's dynamic and that they account for the weakest link.

That's why I usually concern myself with axle and tires. The PW gets a 1 ton rear axle 11.5 AAM while the standard 2500 has the 10.5 AAM. But I get softer D rated AT tires from the factory.

Take the Ram 1500, front and rear axles are rated at 3900lbs for 7800lbs total, but the truck itself is setup as GVWR 6800 - there is a 1000lbs margin built into that truck. Truck gets softer P rated passenger tires and that's the weak spot.
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Old 04-23-2016, 05:08 PM   #17
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Very helpful...thank you. I will do some digging at the dealership.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:10 PM   #18
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My understanding is that the sum of load capacity of front and rear axles is more than vehicle payload as the load can be unevenly distributed front and rear; similarly the sum of right and left tire load capacity is more than axle capacity as the load can be unevenly distributed right and left.
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Old 04-23-2016, 08:58 PM   #19
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I haven't looked at pickups so I can't comment about them, but from my experience with 3/4 ton vans, I've found that back when I was looking, Ford and GM one ton vans had lower towing capacities than 3/4 ton models with the same axle and engine configurations. So it seems that the purchase of a one ton tow vehicle will require a larger engine or betterment in axle ratio to offset the additional weight of the one ton vehicle components.

When I bought my 3/4 ton van, the 6.0 liter gas and 4.10 axle has the best towing capacity for any GM van. Going to 1 ton with the same combo dropped towing capacity by 300-600 lbs. GM had no bigger engine nor anything better than the 4.10 axle at the time so a one ton was definitely a step down. Ford had a larger gas engine available at the time but mileage would definitely suffer.

As noted the only advantage I can see in going to one ton is the need for more cargo capacity or your ability to access a larger engine and better axle ratio.

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Old 04-23-2016, 09:40 PM   #20
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My understanding is that the sum of load capacity of front and rear axles is more than vehicle payload as the load can be unevenly distributed front and rear; similarly the sum of right and left tire load capacity is more than axle capacity as the load can be unevenly distributed right and left.
That would mean if we loaded our truck evenly, using a scale to ensure, it is fine to exceed GVWR as long as we don't exceed GAWR or tire load rating.. Which is what many of us believe.

It should also be noted we could overload an axle GAWR without exceeding GVWR.

I don't believe your explanation for determining GVWR is correct. Decent guess though as most people have no idea how GVWR, or the difference between factory vehicle weight and GVWR obliquely known as "payload", are determined.

Our method when Airstreaming is to load evenly, heavy stuff in front of the bed, and scale to ensure axle and tire limits are not exceeded. If it's a load of dirt for the garden, load it and drive home with extra care.
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:33 AM   #21
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Since we are the heavy side of the GVW sticker when "everything" is loaded in the truck (including the kitchen sink...) we will plan to replace the tires this summer due to age and not mileage. The truck was built in June of 2012 and sat out on the dealership lot in Indianapolis until we acquired it in January 2013. We have stored it in an air conditioned garage in Phoenix when not in use.

I consider a tow vehicle front tire failure when towing likely to create a laundry generating experience moment. Since we plan on mountain driving, there is additional impetus to be safe rather than sorry.

For our vintage Ram 2500HD Cummins, the same axle is used for the one ton model with an additional leaf spring to gain 500 pounds of payload (GVW becomes 10,100 pounds). The same tires would also work.

Thus, the air bag conversion has more capacity than an additional steel spring, but the real limitations are the tires and axle ratings which were not increased by the airbags.

We cross the CAT scales on nearly every departure to be sure the numbers are still good for both vehicles. Also, adjusting the ProPride does impact the load transfer to the front axle which in our case is 300 pounds lighter than when unattached at 4,580 pounds on a 5,500 pound rated axle.
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Old 04-24-2016, 10:46 AM   #22
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While I was shopping for my 2015 Ram PU, the Ram salesman told me that the only difference between the 2500 & the 3500 was that the 2500 had coil springs, and thus a smaller payload, while the 3500 had leaf springs, & thus a larger payload --- other than that, the trucks were identical. He said the major reason to buy a 3500 was if the truck was to be used hauling a heavy camper. And yes, the difference in price between the two (identical in every other way) was only around $500.
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Old 04-24-2016, 02:11 PM   #23
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That would mean if we loaded our truck evenly, using a scale to ensure, it is fine to exceed GVWR as long as we don't exceed GAWR or tire load rating.. Which is what many of us believe.
I wouldn't stress too much about being slightly over the GVWR, particularly if driving a short distance with extra care, but it is there for a reason. It is a legally defined maximum. It is only 'fine' from the perspective of axle weight ratings, not from the perspective of vehicle weight ratings. In your part of the world, it may not be enforced for non-commercial vehicles. In my part of the world, for RVs, exceeding the GVWR is either a citation (for newer vehicles) or a written order for older vehicles (you have to rectify it within a certain time frame, or take the vehicle off the road). Extreme cases result in roadside bans. Enforcement is triggered by a law enforcement officer noticing an obviously overweight vehicle, but it is also a factor in liability following a crash, as published by our provincial government vehicle insurance agency. If you are an out of province vehicle involved in a crash with a vehicle registered in BC, they are the ones deciding who to sue for damages.

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It should also be noted we could overload an axle GAWR without exceeding GVWR.
Absolutely true. Which is why there are three legally enforceable weight limits (GVWR, GAWR, tire ratings). This is contrasted with towing limits that are not defined in the same way, unless we are talking commercial vehicles and GCVWR.

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Old 04-24-2016, 03:15 PM   #24
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Jeff, there may always be some law enforcement jurisdiction where we can somehow be in violation of something. I know of none in the U.S. where your example applies to recreational towing, it applies to commercial towing. That's why we have weigh stations for commercial vehicles, not for recreational vehicles. I can't speak for Canada, you can.

"Enforcement is triggered by a law enforcement officer noticing an obviously overweight vehicle, . . . "

This is a sensible statement from nearly anyone's point of view, and when someone appears obviously overweight they are probably way over what the rig is capable of. Few of any of us if any routinely fall into that category.
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Old 04-24-2016, 03:26 PM   #25
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Why the big payload difference between 3/4 & 1 ton

Michelin, again, switz?

Mine lasted five years and a few months in South Texas. About 70k and xtra low wear (about 4-5 32s).

I'll go four to five. No longer am going to rely on miles or tread wear.

As to difference in one ton versus, ld choose the more co
Pliant suspension. Especially with independent front suspension.

Too much worry about "weight" around here instead of steering braking. Both far more important.
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Old 04-24-2016, 03:35 PM   #26
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Jeff, there may always be some law enforcement jurisdiction where we can somehow be in violation of something. I know of none in the U.S. where your example applies to recreational towing, it applies to commercial towing.
Fair comment, I don't know your regulations. But as a clarification, I am not referring to towing, I am referring to the load carried by the tow vehicle. I agree that there won't be any enforcement around tow ratings. It is just a caution that people should understand that the GVWR is an actual defined and regulated thing. Possibly not enforced, depending on jurisdiction, but still real.

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Old 04-24-2016, 03:47 PM   #27
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Not GVWR, but tire and axle ratings.
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Old 04-24-2016, 05:09 PM   #28
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Not GVWR, but tire and axle ratings.
That appears to be dependent on jurisdiction.

Here in BC, the rule is enforced by the Commercial Vehicle Safety Enforcement Branch of the provincial Ministry of Transportation and Infrastructure, and applies to privately owned RVs:

Quote:
Motor Vehicle Act Regulations in British Columbia prohibit the operation of vehicles that are unsafe or improperly loaded and exceed either the Gross Axle Rating (GAWR) or the Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR). The Province is focusing on vehicles that are obviously overweight and pose a risk to the safety of other motorists. These regulations apply to vehicles manufactured after January 1, 2001 that have a GVWR of 5500 kg or less.
They publish what their 'visual cues' are for spot checks, and it includes the front axle being higher than the rear axle. RVs are not required to stop at commercial weigh stations, but spot checks are done with portable scales, and a police officer has the power to direct a private vehicle to the scales.

Also interesting is that the CVSE list their services as including post collision weighing of vehicles for police crash investigations.

http://www.cvse.ca/vehicle_inspections/PDF/MV3230.pdf

http://www.cvse.ca/references_public...82003)GVWR.pdf

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