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Old 03-01-2008, 03:25 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markdoane
... In limited amounts and for recreational purposes only.
which is exactly how it applies to a thread about diesel fuel...

sort of like shifting an ethanol thread to the topic of...

vintage diesel, estate grown formulations...

so should we be using a chablis or bordeaux glass for maximum enjoyment of a nice ulsd grown on light sweet crude?

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-01-2008, 03:43 PM   #58
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Thumbs down E-85

PHANTASMS, we had 'em in the 60's....

Seems a lot of folks are have'n 'em again...E-85
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Old 03-01-2008, 06:10 PM   #59
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Boy, between the oil companies and the gov't. they have done a good job of brainwashing us. Remember, 11.7 billion dollars PROFIT for 3 months is after taxes,etc. We do own some stock in Exxon/Mobil and other oil companies and also have invested in mutual funds. We sure have not been impressed with the returns or dividends of either. In the old days, it was called price gouging. That was before the oil and drug companies bought and paid for our legislators in Washington.
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Old 03-01-2008, 06:17 PM   #60
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"In limited amounts and for recreational use"
Is exactly how diesel fuel applies to an RV forum - by definition.

Coincidentally, we've put about 45 miles on the TV since Christmas Eve. It uses fuel in limited amounts and for recreational use. (also coincidentally I washed all the winter salt & road ick off my bike this afternoon).

I agree that E-85 made from corn using 1970's technology probably isn't going to cut it. That does not mean that rapeseed oil (or other things) using 2010 technology won't. Doesn't mean that it will, but it doesn't mean that it won't. Ditto B100 or B5 or all the little B's in between.

I was talking with a guy at work a couple months ago. He's from a country where they see things differently. Not necessarily better or worse, just differently. We were talking about energy & transportation, and I was surprised that he wasn't the least bit concerned.
"It's simple," he said, "In twenty years you'll be driving electric cars recharged by nuclear power." I don't know whether or not that specific thing will happen, but we get so myopic about what we "know won't work" that often we refuse to consider alternatives.

The point is that maybe E-fuels aren't the whole answer. Whoever said they would be? Can they be a viable part of an overall approach? Why on earth not?

Either way, even with an active imagination I'm not seeing the return of $1 or even $2/gallon fuel. Nor do I think $6 /gallon fuel will mean the end of our society. It might mean we walk more, but is that so bad? I look around when we take the kids to McFood, and I think that maybe too many of us are walking "in limited amounts and for recreation."
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Old 03-01-2008, 06:56 PM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bfred
Boy, between the oil companies and the gov't. they have done a good job of brainwashing us. Remember, 11.7 billion dollars PROFIT for 3 months is after taxes,etc. We do own some stock in Exxon/Mobil and other oil companies and also have invested in mutual funds. We sure have not been impressed with the returns or dividends of either. In the old days, it was called price gouging. That was before the oil and drug companies bought and paid for our legislators in Washington.
Easy answers always seem a little unnerving. It's worth remembering that
in the old days, the Chinese used next to no oil and the dollar was worth 200 Yen, up to 1.25 Euro, and/or just over a Pound Sterling. Now the dollar is running between 1/2 & two thirds of that and the Chinese have discovered the motor car.

For the record, I don't think the oil companies have as much influence in Washington as a couple of other industries, and a little disturbed by the "bought and paid for" accusation.
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Old 03-01-2008, 07:43 PM   #62
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using 1970's technology probably isn't going to cut it...
this is really the primary value of making moonshine4fuel.

there will hopefully be technologic gains that are yet unknown.

sort of like space travel gave us tang and instant breakfast and better diapers.

along with some genuinely useful advances for the planet and it's inhabitants

so the industrial/political/social/environmental/financial COSTS associated with...

the MASSIVE crop shifts, distilling operations and burning booze and mopping up the saloon...

may yield some new technology or scientific breakthrough...

but that gain is NOT guaranteed, and all of the KNOWN/unknown NEGATIVES continue to grow, as we experiment and shift resources.

many of the same folks who praised diesel (when it was dirty, smelly, inconvient to find and NOISEY) because it was CHEAPER than gas...

now are ON the maddog-n-everclear band wagon...

entirely because of the PRICE issue, and while searching for reasons to justify the shift.

yes this is one aspect of human financial nature, sort of like spending 40k$ on a new eco-car to "save" 800$ a year in fuel costs...

i too keep my combustible uses limited and for recreational purposes only...

bikes is good.

cheers
2air'

now on this point "influence" is a relative term...

Quote:
Originally Posted by RedSHED
... I don't think the oil companies have as much influence in Washington as a couple of other industries...
given recent supreme court rulings that favor big business, industry and limit individual rights and recourse....

the ice is getting thin foiks, it's almost spring!
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Old 03-02-2008, 04:36 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman

many of the same folks who praised diesel (when it was dirty, smelly, inconvient to find and NOISEY) because it was CHEAPER than gas...

now are ON the maddog-n-everclear band wagon...

entirely because of the PRICE issue, and while searching for reasons to justify the shift.

yes this is one aspect of human financial nature, sort of like spending 40k$ on a new eco-car to "save" 800$ a year in fuel costs...
I bought a diesel because it got better fuel economy AND the fuel was cheaper at the time.
My experience with E-85 is nothing but negative. The Army decided to swicth ALL of its vehicles that were flex-fuel capable to E-85 a little over a year ago. We have 3 half-ton 4x4 pickups at work which use the stuff. These trucks often are used on a 24-hour basis and spend 80% of their time running in deep Fort Jackson sand. Fuel economy on these trucks went from around 12 mpg to an average of 5-6 mpg. That's right, a 50% reduction in fuel economy. The two Chevrolet trucks (remember Chevy bragging about the whole E-85 thing) both continually stayed in the shop for about three months due to check engine lights that stayed on. The final solution to the problem? Dealership told us to stop burning E-85 in them. Made the switch back to dino fuel, and no problems since. Our fuel consumption was nearly cut in half immediately and the trucks suddenly had an unbelievable amount of extra power. The stuff might be okay on extended highway trips, but it sucks once the vehicle has to use any real power.
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:22 AM   #64
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Until a recent road trip, I didn't realize the cost differences between regular fuel and diesel fuel. At a recent stop at a TA, the regular fuel was $2.99/gal and diesel was $3.75. Along with you diesel Airstreamers, I feel bad for the trucking industry which is feeling the brunt of this.
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:33 AM   #65
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Again, a reminder...Out-and-out political commentary will not be allowed to stand in the forums. We all have enough to deal with over our rolling aluminum houses without dragging Washington into the mix.
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Old 03-02-2008, 07:45 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by overlander63
Again, a reminder...Out-and-out political commentary will not be allowed to stand in the forums. We all have enough to deal with over our rolling aluminum houses without dragging Washington into the mix.
This post came right after my post. Was it something I said?
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Old 03-02-2008, 08:35 AM   #67
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This post came right after my post. Was it something I said?
Your post is still there. You're fine!
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Old 03-02-2008, 09:45 AM   #68
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I bought a diesel because it got better fuel economy AND the fuel was cheaper at the time.
My experience with E-85 is nothing but negative. The Army decided to swicth ALL of its vehicles that were flex-fuel capable to E-85 a little over a year ago. We have 3 half-ton 4x4 pickups at work which use the stuff. These trucks often are used on a 24-hour basis and spend 80% of their time running in deep Fort Jackson sand. Fuel economy on these trucks went from around 12 mpg to an average of 5-6 mpg. That's right, a 50% reduction in fuel economy. The two Chevrolet trucks (remember Chevy bragging about the whole E-85 thing) both continually stayed in the shop for about three months due to check engine lights that stayed on. The final solution to the problem? Dealership told us to stop burning E-85 in them. Made the switch back to dino fuel, and no problems since. Our fuel consumption was nearly cut in half immediately and the trucks suddenly had an unbelievable amount of extra power. The stuff might be okay on extended highway trips, but it sucks once the vehicle has to use any real power.
I have been told earlier versions of FFV vehicles had issues. Our 08 f150-- not even a burp on the corn fuel/ sometimes and very rarely at idle you can feel the computer hunting for the right numbers, just a brief 1-2 second rough idle.

One thing on e85, I have read that on very short trips that it washes the oil from the rings and causes early cylinder wear. Not an issue on full warm ups, but still I wonder about how it will effect long term engine reliability. Nothing in owners manual about using a special oil or a caution in any way using e85. I read this in the web, so it maybe on older models only.
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:20 AM   #69
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I have similar complaints about E-85 from a mechanic at a local garage. He is a Chevy man, not that that has anything to do with this except He has been bragging about His new Chevy pickup getting 14mpg average. Well,,,HE was bragging until He stated using E-85. He told me the fuel mileage went from 14 average to 9 mpg with E-85 and the power drops like a rock when He has any load on it. He is a well know and trusted mechanic of 35 years who owns a very respected auto shop. He is getting the same complaint from others with Flex fuel vehicles. He now has a sign up in his garage warning about the use of E-85. AND,,,,he thinks it is causeing premature ring ware. The jury is out on this one till there is more evidence but I won't be buying one any time soon.
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Old 03-02-2008, 11:47 AM   #70
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Here are the numbers I experienced in my 2003 Tahoe. All miles are non-towing. Same weather, driving conditions, time of year.

E85:
1245.1 miles
37 mph average
103.0 gallons
12.09 mpg

87 octane
1581.8 miles
37 mph average
102.0 gallons
15.51 mpg

Breakeven: I buy E85 if price difference is more than $0.65
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