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Old 02-27-2008, 09:17 AM   #43
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With life being so short and the thread getting well a little pressure I have a thought for all of us. I do little towing in the summer. My boat is the thing that time of year. I just have a 22 foot performance model on a lift at our marina. Most of the guys have twins and big yachts and live on them. We live across the street. If you think running our rigs is expensive, fill up a 50 foot Sea Ray and you will drop 3k. Take it to the Mackinaw bridge and back to Holland and its all gone baby. You should hear these guys complain!!

I say after almost 25 years on the road, mostly traveling by car, hotels and airplanes we have much to offer with our type travel. Now that I am on my own, fuel even at 4 to 5 bucks/ gallons is very reasonable. Long periods on the road are expensive ,when you add up mid priced hotels and eating out. Add in rental cars and airplanes trying to get home every week and my recent 2 month periods in the A/S are cheap. I have saved thousands, slept in my own bed and my sweetie cooking her healthy and CLEAN food. Add in the wonderful people and memories and I am hooked. Is it perfect? No, but as technology advances, like our 2008 e85 f150 towing the 28 perfectly, what will be out in 5 years/10 years? Hybrid? Hydrogen? It is the main reason I went with a trailer and not an aging motorhome. I hope I live long enough to see it, and in the end it could always be worse. Just remember the old saying you have your health you have everything rings true indeed.
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Old 02-27-2008, 01:18 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by safari 28
With life being so short and the thread getting well a little pressure I have a thought for all of us. I do little towing in the summer. My boat is the thing that time of year. I just have a 22 foot performance model on a lift at our marina. Most of the guys have twins and big yachts and live on them. We live across the street. If you think running our rigs is expensive, fill up a 50 foot Sea Ray and you will drop 3k. Take it to the Mackinaw bridge and back to Holland and its all gone baby. You should hear these guys complain!!
It's tough to feel sorry for someone who owns a million dollar boat complaining about fuel costs for it. I think the favorite saying over on the VW forum where I spend a lot of time best sums it up for them: Gotta' pay to play!
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Old 02-28-2008, 09:03 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wabbiteer
Minnesota gas is 10% ethanol, soon to be 15% (20%?) and we get a huge mileage LOSS because of it. With Missouri non-alcohol blended gas 18mpg is common on trip home, I've seen 20mpg with a strong tailwind.
This is interesting since I thought unless you have an E85 car, the max blend of ethanol you could use safely in most vehicles was 10%. Has that standard changed?

BTW, don't count on Missouri non-alcohol, the legislature passed a bill requiring a 10% mix on all gas sold in Missouri. It either is in effect now or will be shortly.

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Old 02-28-2008, 12:26 PM   #46
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This is interesting since I thought unless you have an E85 car, the max blend of ethanol you could use safely in most vehicles was 10%. Has that standard changed?
Yes, it's currently 10% but our MN Governor has signed the bill that bumps it to 15 or 20%. I think Iowa has it right when they charge less for mid-grade then regular since extra ethanol is added to boost octane and the overall cost is less.

I am saddened Missouri has added mandatory ethanol. It's a huge hidden tax on drivers but a boon for the local and national economy streams since every aspect of production means less dollars leaving the country.
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Old 02-28-2008, 02:38 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by Wabbiteer
Yes, it's currently 10% but our MN Governor has signed the bill that bumps it to 15 or 20%. I think Iowa has it right when they charge less for mid-grade then regular since extra ethanol is added to boost octane and the overall cost is less.

I am saddened Missouri has added mandatory ethanol. It's a huge hidden tax on drivers but a boon for the local and national economy streams since every aspect of production means less dollars leaving the country.
I agree on the ethanol is good for our economy. Its just that corn isn't necessarily the best thing to make the ethanol out of. Lots of weeds and stuff would work without increasing the price of corn. (Thats dumb for me to say as I have farm land rented out with corn grown for dairy cows usually. If they need to buy corn somewhere, they loose more money milking the cows than usual. Dairy farming is a loosing business, another topic.)
Ethanol is good, make it out of something other than corn.
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Old 02-28-2008, 03:17 PM   #48
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using food crops to make petrol is robbing peter...

using viable open topsoil to grow petrol is too.

clearing forested land to grow crops for petrol is robbing mother nature...

turning garbage and other man made wastes into fuel has some potential...

as long as the message of 'the cat in the hat' blue streak is considered.

ethanol for fuel is a drunken pause in consumption and denial,

before the hangover really hits.

cheers
2air'
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Old 02-28-2008, 05:50 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NevadaGeo
I agree on the ethanol is good for our economy. Its just that corn isn't necessarily the best thing to make the ethanol out of. Lots of weeds and stuff would work without increasing the price of corn. (Thats dumb for me to say as I have farm land rented out with corn grown for dairy cows usually. If they need to buy corn somewhere, they loose more money milking the cows than usual. Dairy farming is a loosing business, another topic.)
Ethanol is good, make it out of something other than corn.
They are testing switchgrass here in Arkansas, and it appears to be a good, viable alternative to corn, and is easy to grow, with high yields if fertilized properly.

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Old 02-28-2008, 06:49 PM   #50
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World wide demand

I couldn't resist but respond to this thread. First off, as an example, the majority of Exxon's "Profits" are from overseas sales.

global energy demand

"ExxonMobil projects that global energy demand will grow by 1.3 percent annually, on average, from 2005 to 2030 — resulting in about a 40 percent increase from 2005 to 2030.

Energy demand is projected to grow fastest in the developing world (non-OECD countries) in the coming decades, accounting for approximately 80% of the global increase. In 2006, economic output grew by over 5 percent in approximately 100 countries.

Fossil fuels will continue to provide approximately 80 percent of global energy supplies in 2030, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration and the International Energy Agency. Approximately 55 to 60 percent of supplies will be provided by oil and natural gas."

Financial Statements for Exxon Mobil Corporation - Google Finance

Exxon's Income before taxes $70,474,000
Exxon's Income after taxes $40,610,000

They paid $29,864,000 in taxes at a rate of 43%

Exxon's Net Profit Margin 10.04%

Here's Microsoft's numbers:

Before taxes $20,101,000
After taxes $14,065,000

They paid $6,036,000 in taxes at a rate of 30%

Microsoft's Net Profit Margin 27.51% (BTW, I don't hear anybody complaining about Microsoft's over 27% profit margins!)

Some more earnings tidbits:

Record Profits Mean Record Taxes

"And it's not just Exxon Mobil that's paying the freight. From 1977 to 2004, according to Tax Foundation data, U.S. oil companies cleared $630 billion after taxes while paying $518 billion in federal and state corporate taxes at an average rate of 45%.

Over the same period, an additional $1.34 trillion in excise fuel taxes was collected from consumers by the oil companies and turned over to various governments."

Now this should really get your attention:

House passes $18 billion in new taxes for Big Oil - CNN.com

Now who do you think is going to make up this difference if the oil company's shareholder's (I'm one of them) wants the company to continue making a measly 10% profit after expenses? That's right you and me at the pump!

Just so you know this hasn't happened over night look at the following Fidelity funds and their corresponding returns and you will get an idea what is really going on in the world today as outlined above about where the real growth is coming from:

Fidelity Select Natural Resources Returns (Exxon/Mobile largest holding)
1 Year 50.08
3 Year 37.67
5 Year 33.08

Fidelity Latin America Returns (PETROBRAS PN largest holding an oil company)
1 Year 43.71
3 Year 47.64
5 Year 49.74

Fidelity Southeast Asia Returns (China 22.8% of the fund)
1 Year 55.39
3 Year 41.74
5 Year 37.57

Fidelity Canadian returns (Suncor Energy largest holding)
1 Year 35.02
3 Year 25.71
5 Year 30.18

Fidelity Emerging Markets returns
1 Year 45.06
3 Year 40.81
5 Year 38.56
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Old 02-28-2008, 07:27 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpandorf
I couldn't resist but respond to this thread. First off, as an example, the majority of Exxon's "Profits" are from overseas sales.

global energy demand

"ExxonMobil projects that global energy demand will grow by 1.3 percent annually, on average, from 2005 to 2030 — resulting in about a 40 percent increase from 2005 to 2030.

Energy demand is projected to grow fastest in the developing world (non-OECD countries) in the coming decades, accounting for approximately 80% of the global increase. In 2006, economic output grew by over 5 percent in approximately 100 countries.

Fossil fuels will continue to provide approximately 80 percent of global energy supplies in 2030, according to the U.S. Energy Information Administration and the International Energy Agency. Approximately 55 to 60 percent of supplies will be provided by oil and natural gas."

Financial Statements for Exxon Mobil Corporation - Google Finance

Exxon's Income before taxes $70,474,000
Exxon's Income after taxes $40,610,000

They paid $29,864,000 in taxes at a rate of 43%

Exxon's Net Profit Margin 10.04%

Here's Microsoft's numbers:

Before taxes $20,101,000
After taxes $14,065,000

They paid $6,036,000 in taxes at a rate of 30%

Microsoft's Net Profit Margin 27.51% (BTW, I don't hear anybody complaining about Microsoft's over 27% profit margins!)

Some more earnings tidbits:

Record Profits Mean Record Taxes

"And it's not just Exxon Mobil that's paying the freight. From 1977 to 2004, according to Tax Foundation data, U.S. oil companies cleared $630 billion after taxes while paying $518 billion in federal and state corporate taxes at an average rate of 45%.

Over the same period, an additional $1.34 trillion in excise fuel taxes was collected from consumers by the oil companies and turned over to various governments."

Now this should really get your attention:

House passes $18 billion in new taxes for Big Oil - CNN.com

Now who do you think is going to make up this difference if the oil company's shareholder's (I'm one of them) wants the company to continue making a measly 10% profit after expenses? That's right you and me at the pump!

Just so you know this hasn't happened over night look at the following Fidelity funds and their corresponding returns and you will get an idea what is really going on in the world today as outlined above about where the real growth is coming from:

Fidelity Select Natural Resources Returns (Exxon/Mobile largest holding)
1 Year 50.08
3 Year 37.67
5 Year 33.08

Fidelity Latin America Returns (PETROBRAS PN largest holding an oil company)
1 Year 43.71
3 Year 47.64
5 Year 49.74

Fidelity Southeast Asia Returns (China 22.8% of the fund)
1 Year 55.39
3 Year 41.74
5 Year 37.57

Fidelity Canadian returns (Suncor Energy largest holding)
1 Year 35.02
3 Year 25.71
5 Year 30.18

Fidelity Emerging Markets returns
1 Year 45.06
3 Year 40.81
5 Year 38.56
qUoTa owner??
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Old 02-28-2008, 08:03 PM   #52
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More Ethanol Info

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2airishuman
using food crops to make petrol is robbing peter...

using viable open topsoil to grow petrol is too.

clearing forested land to grow crops for petrol is robbing mother nature...

turning garbage and other man made wastes into fuel has some potential...

as long as the message of 'the cat in the hat' blue streak is considered.

ethanol for fuel is a drunken pause in consumption and denial,

before the hangover really hits.

cheers
2air'
The Associated Press: Study: Ethanol May Add to Global Warming

"Using good cropland to expand biofuels will probably exacerbate global warming," concludes the study published in Science magazine.

Here's another Ethanol Gotcha!

Ethanol Fuels Fire Concerns - Firehouse.com News

"Instead, the real danger involves the many tanker trucks and railcars that are rolling out of the Corn Belt with huge quantities of 85 or 95 percent ethanol and carrying it to parts of the country unaccustomed to dealing with it.

"Now, the most common hazardous material has a new twist to it," said Mike Schultz, a firefighter who manned a foam gun during a recent blaze in Missouri.

The risk is more than theoretical. Over the past several years, ethanol accidents on highways, along railroads and in storehouses and refineries have triggered evacuations and fires from Texas to Minnesota, injuring several people and killing at least one person."

Not only are we causing the beef I eat to cost more but once the Feds get around to it we'll be paying higher local taxes to fund the more expensive fire fighting agent.

Didn't we play this out a few years ago with freon?
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Old 02-29-2008, 08:55 AM   #53
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Well I hear what you all are saying about ethanol, and I agree. But the fact remains on 2 trips since October, and other than the lack of E85 in California and New Mexico, we save on the average about a $1.00/ gallon over diesel. Yes mileage goes down about 1-2mpg, but the savings is huge. I have in my handheld a website for current locations, and start looking at 1/4 tank. It is interesting, not usually alongside the freeway, but in town about mile. The co-ops have it alongside bio-diesel. Out west only military bases have it. That tells me this is in for the long run, an yes switchgrass is very much an option. Waiting out the bad weather here in Ft.Collins and CSU and a local company working on using algae. They claim once this is perfected, the cost and efficiency of making e85 will be outstanding and very profitable. Makes sense as as algae multiplies better than rabbits!! Time will tell, but for those who do not want diesel, find a heavy half that burns the stuff and take it from me doing nationwide travel. It will save you money and works.
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Old 03-01-2008, 01:12 PM   #54
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Yes, ethanol works! It is NOT robbing peter.......At the end of the process you have Dried Distillers Grain. That grain is fed to cattle and hogs, so the grain is not wasted. At all. You are merely taking one component out of the grain to make the alcohol.

Yes, grain prices are rising. But it is not all the fault of ethanol. We use about 20% of our corn crop for ethanol. BUT, we EXPORT over 52% of our corn to other countries. Like Iran. A few weeks ago they bought 600,000 tons from the US. Some countries are buying more than they need, for hedging purposes, too.

The weak dollar also plays quite a bit into grain prices as well.

Jack, some folks report that they are running up to 50% ethanol in non FFV's with no problems. I have run up to 30% in my wife's non FFV Chevy Malibu with 2.2 L EcoTec engine.
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Old 03-01-2008, 03:01 PM   #55
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yes...

and LOTS of people have reported running on 50% ethanol for years without problems...

their arrest records, family and liver dysfunction suggests otherwise.

time to re read dr seuss...
before yer brain is melted and loose.

i don't have time to clear this up
and it's not my place to wash your cup

but if we think that corn's the cure
it's obvious that view is glazed or obscure.

with sugar and booze as mostly fuel...
life really is a crumbling maize...

cheers
2air'
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Old 03-01-2008, 03:12 PM   #56
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I'm suprised with all the criticism of E85 that no one has mentioned that it is a carcinogen.

It contains 15% gasoline.

If it didn't, it would be drinkable. In limited amounts and for recreational purposes only.
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