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Old 10-08-2004, 01:23 PM   #29
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Twink,

Always nice conversing with you.

Is the 14 bolt hub really necessary for a 25' AS? A 30'? I am not an expert but it seems to me the 14 bolt would be necessary for the really big loads of 5ers and the 34' AS and the 10 bolt good for the smaller loads such as a 25'.

As for the 6.0 Vortec, I think it is a monster engine that handles my 30' just fine up the hills, as I tested it hard last summer. I am skeptical about the 8.1 being only 1 MPG more than the 6.0, especially in the city. Hard to believe. Bigger block means more gas being ignited, right?

Anyway, I have learned much from these debates.
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Old 10-08-2004, 02:09 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Dee
Twink,

Always nice conversing with you.

Is the 14 bolt hub really necessary for a 25' AS? A 30'? I am not an expert but it seems to me the 14 bolt would be necessary for the really big loads of 5ers and the 34' AS and the 10 bolt good for the smaller loads such as a 25'.

As for the 6.0 Vortec, I think it is a monster engine that handles my 30' just fine up the hills, as I tested it hard last summer. I am skeptical about the 8.1 being only 1 MPG more than the 6.0, especially in the city. Hard to believe. Bigger block means more gas being ignited, right?

Anyway, I have learned much from these debates.
Dee. The hubs,most likely not. The trans and the 14 bolt rear end, without question, worth it. If I had to pick only one, the 4l80e hands down. Much more stout than the 4l60e (and remember I use to be one of the biggest 4l60e mouthpieces before I got my hands on the 4l80e). When I buy a new or pre-owned truck for towing, I buy based on what I can see and for some of that which I didn't consider (hint, hint another Airstream upgrade).

Bigger does usually mean more gas and it does in the 8.1L's case, however, the difference is pretty low. My main gripe besides losing about 30-40 miles a tankful comparted to the 6.0L is the fact that a good number of folks that have the 8.1L have what I would consider above normal oil consumption. GM of course calls this within spec. I have never (so far) owned a car (or truck w/ a 454) that ate 1 quart every 3000-4000 miles.

I too enjoy our conversations.
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Old 10-08-2004, 02:33 PM   #31
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Don't mean to interrupt your guys' discourse on your choice of GM tow vehicles, but I have to respond to JRKEEF's post. While the full size Bronco 5.0L has plenty of power (used to own one myself), it has an awfully short wheelbase for towing 30' of AS.
Please make sure your truck has a premium sway system installed, a Reese dual cam being the minimum, IMHO. Let's be safe out there.

Bob
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Old 10-08-2004, 02:54 PM   #32
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This "1/2 ton"/"3/4 ton" nomenclature is quite blurred these days. My neighbor has a 1500HD Crew Cab Chevy. At first glance one would assume this is a "half ton" truck., because of the "1500" designation. BUT, it has an 8600 GVW rating and 8 bolt wheels. One could assume without the 1500HD on the door that it is a "3/4 ton" truck.

My current 2500HD has a 9200 lb. GVW, and most call it a "3/4 ton" truck. My old 2000 model year 3500 single rear wheel was considered a "1 ton" truck because of the "3500" on the doors, but it also had a 9200 GVW rating. Clear as mud?

I think they should use the GVW as the model number on the door and that would make things less confusing.
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Old 10-08-2004, 03:15 PM   #33
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I have a '97 Ford F-150 X-tra Cab 4x4 with the 4.6L engine and the 3.73 Axle ratio. It has a GVW of 6000 lbs. It's rated to tow 6600 lbs. GCVW is 11500 lbs.
With a truck cap, my daughter, myself, a full tank of gas and hitched weight of my 22' CCD, the truck weighed in at 5540 lbs. on the scales. I can only load another 460 lbs to gross out the truck.
My trailer with no water, full gas bottles and standard household items (pots,pans, linens, blankets, etc) weighed in at 4860 lbs. Gross for the CCD is 5600 lbs. Thats about 740 lbs of additional capacity.
This equates to about 90% of my GCVW. This is OK in the flats, but it is a struggle in the mountains.
For the time being, my wife and other daughter take the VW Beetle with extra stuff. This is not a long term solution. In the future I'll upgrade to an F-250 Fx4 or GMC 2500HD Sierra for longer trips.

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Old 10-08-2004, 04:05 PM   #34
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Yeah, Bob the short wheelbase on the Bronco would be worrisome. I understand the wheelbase better now after getting my 30'. Having those wheels far apart really makes it stable and able to handle the pressures of the trailer.
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Old 10-08-2004, 04:28 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by takenitez
Don't mean to interrupt your guys' discourse on your choice of GM tow vehicles, but I have to respond to JRKEEF's post. While the full size Bronco 5.0L has plenty of power (used to own one myself), it has an awfully short wheelbase for towing 30' of AS.
Please make sure your truck has a premium sway system installed, a Reese dual cam being the minimum, IMHO. Let's be safe out there.

Bob
You are right Bob the short wheelbase can be a problem. I have good stablizers and anti-sway bar. I am in the market for a longer wheelbase diesel as we get closer to retirement and longer trips. The old Bronco is fine for our short trips out of Lafayette, LA. Usually we stay south of I-20 and it is pretty flat. I used to get pushed pretty good by the Semi's on the interstate when they pasted me at 75, but the sway bar seems to have cured that. Not knowing what the future will bring (how big an A/S I may have later) I am looking at older (96-97) F-350 duallies. I like the old body style.

Jay
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Old 10-09-2004, 10:07 PM   #36
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Dee,
I don't want to appear that I am stuck on the 3/4 ton trucks with 8.1 engine. If I were towing a 25' Excella from the 70's then I would have gone with the 2500hd with the 6.0 engine for better gas mileage while towing. In '01 the 6.0 was getting a terrible reputation for cold start knock and the debate still rages on about whether the engines displaying that characteristic are being harmed internally. I decided to stay clear and would have gone to the 1500hd but it was only available in the crewcab which I did not want.

The combination of heavy duty parts in your truck will make it last longer, brake with more authority and give you all the power you need. It works for you and would do just fine with my '77 Excella 31' trailer. I do know that my shortbed '92 Chevy Z71 1500 4X4 with 5 sp. manual trans was a dog when pulling my trailer from AZ. where it was purchased. It could have been helped with 4.10 rear gears, an auto transmission, Vortec heads (introduced in '95 or '96) and an extended cab but this is another reason I jumped on the current truck I purchased. I didn't feel the need for a 3500 dually either. By the way, I just returned from a 385 mile solo trip to Land Between the Lakes and managed 14.5 mpg traveling 71 mph on interstate and maybe putting 10 of those miles on back roads. Sure, 18 mpg would have been better but I can't complain.
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Old 10-09-2004, 11:23 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davidz71
In '01 the 6.0 was getting a terrible reputation for cold start knock and the debate still rages on about whether the engines displaying that characteristic are being harmed internally.
On my research on the Denali before purchase, I missed the knock problem on the 6.0 on the pre-'02 models. Thank god GM fixed it. This was serious as I read after the fact.

But I got to say GM fixed it right. My 6.0 is so dam smooth and quiet that it continues to amaze me. And when towing, man is it a great engine. So much power. I love this engine!
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Old 10-10-2004, 12:17 AM   #38
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Exclamation

OK....now what is the difference between the 4L85-E and the 4L65-E?

When the brochure omits the transmission designation, and just says, "heavy duty" what does that mean?

Know a web site with GM tech information?

I guess after my trusty old Dodge gave up its original gear box at 108,000 miles, many of them towing a 12,000 # fifth wheel, I am concentrating on that part of the drive train. I want a box that will keep its cool climbing some of those 7 and 8 percent grades I experienced in Colorado this year
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Old 10-10-2004, 12:22 AM   #39
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Hola


We have a 1970 27' InterNational and I have used either a '63 Le Baron or the "66 Le Baron ( ... that's an up-graded Imperial). Both cars do a good job of pulling the trailer. ( And I do drive as if I'm in no hurry.) Around here the city is about 6200+ feet with some well known hills so I never have been above 18 mpg running w/o the trailer any ole way. And in about two weeks I'll add a '77 Dodge Custom ( w/ collector plates ) as another TV. For get up and go the pick up has the 360 and a New Process 4 speed. The front sway bar is a HD unit and the rear springs are the same. For comfort the truck has the correct era AM/FM stereo and the OEM dual bucket seat option.

I say this 'cause as I read about what others are using I feel that some must be on the 108 month payment plan for the TV.

If you are ever in the area and want to go for a test drive, just let me know. Maybe by then I'll have the '56 De Soto engine in the '47 De Soto.

Rodger & Gabby
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Old 10-10-2004, 09:01 AM   #40
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Not sure specifically what the difference might be, but I do know that any trans with the L8 in it is the more robust transmission. I do not know the difference between the 4l80e and the 4l85e. I do know that folks on some of the car club forums swear by the 4l60e as a better choice than going to a 4l65e. However, most forums that talk about towing talk about using 4l80es. You can go to:

www.thedieselplace.com and look at the gasser section

www.ls1.com and look at the truck section

www.gm-trucks.com and look at the whole site

www.impalassforum.com check out the driveline section

All these will in detail give you some good reading about GM transmissions.

Older Dodge might be ok, but I've been reading here(I believe) and other truck forums where the new Dodge truck transmissions are literally chewing themselves up to pieces. Some with less than 10k on the clock.

As for towing with a Desoto or LeBaron, I doubt that anyone would question that they have the power to tow successfully old vintage coachs as they weigh less than newer coachs of today (which is what the thread was talking about). I also believe that though they do have under the hood what is needed for the older coaches, I am not sure that they would be a good choice for longer coaches of say more than 20' if the wheelbase was not long enough. I further believe that if one were to try to tow a newer style Airstream, it would be an all out bad idea given that a 20' something Airstream today, weighs a good deal more than the 20' Airstreams of yesterday.

Sure these old cars do well in a straight line as some of the musclecars of the 60's did. Try to make a manuver and most folks would find the suspension shortcomings of the older cars fairly quickly.

I have great respect for the old cars being a car nut myself, but I think, though correct that newer cars/truck cost a lot, there have been some significant improvements and understanding that has come since the days of just pure horsepower making some of these newer tow vehicles a far better choice. As has been said here....there is towing well and towing safely.
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Old 10-10-2004, 09:15 AM   #41
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some one here is sure to more about gm trannys than me.

my understanding is this:

4l60E = the turbo 350

4l80E = the turbo 400

of course there has been overdrive added and the tourque converter locks.

someone (terry) correct me if i am wrong!

john
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Old 10-11-2004, 06:45 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wildwoodrver
Our new 25' CCD Int'l. is on the way and we want to haul it with a smaller unit. Maybe an SUV maybe a 1/2 ton truck.

Talked to some streamers who are doing it successfully (safe with decent mpg). How about you out there?

Three basic questions:

1> Short wheelbase ok? We'll be using a Hensley Arrow hitch.
2> 6.0 Liter Vortec enough juice? (345 HP/380 # feet of tourque)
3> 3.73 gears do the job?

We obviously would like to get a little better mileage solo, so are tending toward the 3.73 rears and avoiding the 8 liter.

Appreciate your feed back. Our trusty old '96 Dodge/Cummins will get us started, so we can take our time.
We have now made three tripps from Utah to Upstate New York with our 25' classic. The first trip was made with a 2002 Tahoe Z71- 5.3 liter/3.73 gears. The second trip was with a gmc duramax and allison.. This year we repeated with the Tahoe. The duramax/allison combo was clearly a superior towing combinbation. But the Tahoe is more than adequate. Fuel ecomomy is definitely worse. And ride quality is a toss up.
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