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Old 07-08-2017, 07:30 AM   #1
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When to go electric for a tow vehicle

In recent news coming from a variety of vehicle manufacturers lately, it seems electric has come out of its recent hiatus and is back in the news. GM, Tesla and others have rolled out new models with better range and power. Volvo recently annouced that all models by 2019 will be a combination of hybrid or completely electric. Volvo's XC90 is a large hybrid SUV.

We have also seen this technology totally embraced by the super car manufacturers of the world, like Porsche, Mclaren, Ferrari and Lamborghini to name a few. These manufactures are getting huge linear power out of small light battery packs and motors.

Electric tow vehicles do offer a host of possible advantages over their gas/diesel bethren as their power is delivered in a linear fashion and you can recoup electric power through braking etc, etc.

So my questions are as follows:

At what point will you buy an all electric, or possibly a hybrid tow vehicle?

What performance points would you like it to have?

What downsides could you live with? ( for example, charging times are getting less but electric infrastructure in parks could be a problem)

What price point increase would you accept to go electric?

What possible downsides could an electric tow vehicle exhibit?

People, we will have to start talking about this, sooner than later, as the future is coming rapidly.

Cheers
Tony
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Old 07-08-2017, 07:47 AM   #2
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Not me, they will have to pry internal combustion engines out of my cold, dead hands.
Besides, in my lifetime, there will never be an electric vehicle that can tow 8000# 400 miles in all-terrain at 60 mph and refuel in 15 minutes.
Finally, I do not think anyone has really publically addressed the issue of battery disposal when everyone is driving an electric car and keeps the car beyond the battery life.

Larry
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:00 AM   #3
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Today, an electric vehicle is most likely a coal powered vehicle.
They're popular in California, where they haven't built a new power plant in 20 years. The notion that electric vehicles are just "plugged in" as if that power came from heaven is amusing.
I say we encourage electric technology and nuclear power plants as well. (a very bright friend of mine claims Thorium power plants are the way of the future.)
Don't get me started on the wind fiasco.

I'd love an electric vehicle. The Tesla is beautiful. But count me in when they can compete on a fair playing field.
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:14 AM   #4
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We test drove the Tesla X SUV recently, as reported in the later posts of this thread:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...-x-160951.html

Here is another Tesla thread FYI: http://www.airforums.com/forums/f224...es-156763.html

If they ever make a van TV with more battery storage [the whole floor could be an 8" (+/-) high battery bank basically!] and better range, we could be open to an all electric TV. The X we drove had GOBS of power. They even have a handling setting on the video screen control panel for "Ludicrous" and I was not comfortable using that setting. Even on the "Sport" setting (or something like that) the acceleration was mind-blowing. Something like 3-4 seconds from zero to 60 as I recall. That is not a typo!

Excellent points about "coal-powered electricity," as well as disposal of the lithium batteries and other wastes!

Have a good weekend.

Peter
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:29 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by lsbrodsky View Post
I do not think anyone has really publically addressed the issue of battery disposal when everyone is driving an electric car and keeps the car beyond the battery life.
We don't throw lead acid batteries in landfills so why would other battery types be different? Each battery technology has different issues and economic implications, but battery recycling is already being addressed and in fact carried out.
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Old 07-08-2017, 08:34 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Mollysdad View Post
Today, an electric vehicle is most likely a coal powered vehicle.
They're popular in California, where they haven't built a new power plant in 20 years. The notion that electric vehicles are just "plugged in" as if that power came from heaven is amusing.
Since you mention California.....

Coal represents 6% of their electricity production, and is set to sunset. An electric vehicle is not therefore most likely to be a coal powered vehicle. Renewables are at 22% (2015). For now, ithe EV in California is most likely to be natural gas powered.

Add to this that electric vehicle charging can be shifted to off peak hours to a large extent (avoiding peaks at usual times of day) and it becomes an even larger part of the mix.
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:01 AM   #7
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Lead or lithium?

Lead Acid battery recycling has been an established industry for a long time, but I do not read anything about recycling of the various lithium chemistry batteries being used in cars today. It seems that most of the electrics are not old enough to be at the point of battery disposal. As is always the case with "save the environment" technologies, we do not have the full life-cycle costs.

Larry
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:16 AM   #8
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When sus domestics fly
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Old 07-08-2017, 09:24 AM   #9
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When Liquid freezes in a very very hot spot.

Or when you have old school trolley power overhead lines and those spring loaded contact poles to get power with.

You didn't ask about my commuter vehicle, this was for a TV.
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:10 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by lsbrodsky View Post
Not me, they will have to pry internal combustion engines out of my cold, dead hands.
Besides, in my lifetime, there will never be an electric vehicle that can tow 8000# 400 miles in all-terrain at 60 mph and refuel in 15 minutes.
Finally, I do not think anyone has really publically addressed the issue of battery disposal when everyone is driving an electric car and keeps the car beyond the battery life.

Larry
Battery disposal is a non issue. They are recyclable and valuable at end of life, just like any other battery.

Electric vehicles are good for commuting but probably won't replace conventional tow vehicles anytime soon.
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:12 AM   #11
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Okay, okay, I understand the whole "pry my internal combustion out of my cold dead hands" or when pigs fly and hell freezes over, but seriously folks, it is coming to a dealership near you; (although dealerships as they now exist may also go the way of the internal combustion engine; but that's a different thread).

As a pp has stated, there are significant advantages to electric; better acceleration, better braking, less complex systems to fix as electric motors only have one moving part, lighter vehicles, more room for storage (Tesla's have two trunks, one up front where an engine would be, and one in the rear),etc, etc.

Range? What does the average AS owner tow per day?

Towing capacity?

Would you like the ability to own an electric hybrid with the option of powering the systems in your trailer and using the hybrid motor as a generator while boon docking?

The list goes on and on. Imagine I'm a manufacturer and I'm listening to your input right now, about to design a large SUV or modern P/U that is electric/hybrid.

GO!

Cheers
Tony
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:15 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Mollysdad View Post
Today, an electric vehicle is most likely a coal powered vehicle.
They're popular in California, where they haven't built a new power plant in 20 years. The notion that electric vehicles are just "plugged in" as if that power came from heaven is amusing.
I say we encourage electric technology and nuclear power plants as well. (a very bright friend of mine claims Thorium power plants are the way of the future.)
Don't get me started on the wind fiasco.

I'd love an electric vehicle. The Tesla is beautiful. But count me in when they can compete on a fair playing field.
Regardless where the energy comes from it's cheaper than gasoline. the bottom line is cost per mile. Everything pollutes in one way or another.

I'm glad the technology is around. Options are good.
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:20 AM   #13
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Since you mention California.....

Coal represents 6% of their electricity production, and is set to sunset. An electric vehicle is not therefore most likely to be a coal powered vehicle.
Yes, but....
The main source of power in California is ...........Arizona.

Okay, "coal powered" was a little tongue in cheek, but all the factors need to be considered. I once read a study that demonstrated how a Prius actually has a larger carbon footprint that a Hummer H2 when you included the mining, production, and shipping of batteries.

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Regardless where the energy comes from it's cheaper than gasoline.
I've heard that about Diesel, ethanol, and lead free too. After they are adopted they mysteriously cost more.
The giant solar farm in the Mohave desert is not producing what was expected. Jeez, if you can't make use of sunshine in the {bleeping}MOHAVE desert, where can you?


I'm expecting someone to post: "I know this guy who has a 5' windmill next to his house and runs everything for free."
Okay, do you know the guy with the 100mpg carburetor too?
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:26 AM   #14
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Hills and that extra mass would basically turn it into a gas/diesel to electric system like a freight train which would make it less efficient in the long run. Every time you convert energy from one form to anther you loose some. You would have to store too much energy. I have some friends who own a Prius. It worked great on relatively flat terrain but in the mountains it really struggles. Battery tech has a long way to go. Most of the power to charge electric vehicles comes from fossil fuels. Nuclear power in its present state is dangerous and expensive because we refuse to upgrade defective nuclear tech that was invented for submarines in the 1950's. Solar and wind are not there yet.

Perry
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Old 07-08-2017, 10:56 AM   #15
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Talked to a guy with a Tesla. His power comes from his home solar farm. A guy who I sail with added enough extra solar on his house to provide power for an electric car. It was a just in case plan, but the diesel emission issues moved him forward to an electric.

So, electric is not for everyone, but it is beginning to be viable. We'll keep looking to see if the tech is right for us and we really appreciate the folks who are pioneering the use of electric vehicles in the RV world.

So good thread. Pat
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:01 AM   #16
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Range? What does the average AS owner tow per day?

Plan on 4 to 5 hours a day may go 6

Towing capacity?
My 2000 Safari is around 7,500 lbs. Not loaded so that would be my starting point.

Would you like the ability to own an electric hybrid with the option of powering the systems in your trailer and using the hybrid motor as a generator while boon docking?
If the generator could pump enough to run the AC, yes. And quiet enough for night time use.

The list goes on and on. Imagine I'm a manufacturer and I'm listening to your input right now, about to design a large SUV or modern P/U that is electric/hybrid.
GO!
So there is an off the cuff wish list. I don't see it happening. Market is too small for GM, Ford, Honda, etc. to go after. If it happens it will be an after thought. Something like trying to put a pick up and a sedan together..Oh wait they did try that.


Cheers
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:20 AM   #17
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In recent news coming from a variety of vehicle manufacturers lately, it seems electric has come out of its recent hiatus and is back in the news. GM, Tesla and others have rolled out new models with better range and power. Volvo recently annouced that all models by 2019 will be a combination of hybrid or completely electric. Volvo's XC90 is a large hybrid SUV.

We have also seen this technology totally embraced by the super car manufacturers of the world, like Porsche, Mclaren, Ferrari and Lamborghini to name a few. These manufactures are getting huge linear power out of small light battery packs and motors.

Electric tow vehicles do offer a host of possible advantages over their gas/diesel bethren as their power is delivered in a linear fashion and you can recoup electric power through braking etc, etc.

So my questions are as follows:

At what point will you buy an all electric, or possibly a hybrid tow vehicle?

What performance points would you like it to have?

What downsides could you live with? ( for example, charging times are getting less but electric infrastructure in parks could be a problem)

What price point increase would you accept to go electric?

What possible downsides could an electric tow vehicle exhibit?

People, we will have to start talking about this, sooner than later, as the future is coming rapidly.

Cheers
Tony
I will be ready to talk about electric when:

1. Eliminate Subsidies.
2. It can compete on all levels with the ICE.

Until than it will be nothing more than a limited use personal vehicle or like in Tesla's case just another expensive toy.
How is that for a poke in the eye. One buys an expensive toy like a boat and ends up paying a luxury tax. Buy a Tesla and the taxpayer will kick in a tax rebate.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:25 AM   #18
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I will be ready to talk about electric when:

1. Eliminate Subsidies.
2. It can compete on all levels with the ICE.

Until than it will be nothing more than a limited use personal vehicle or like in Tesla's case just another expensive toy.
How is that for a poke in the eye. One buys an expensive toy like a boat and ends up paying a luxury tax. Buy a Tesla and the taxpayer will kick in a tax rebate.
One way or another everything is subsidized.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:28 AM   #19
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Yes, but....
The main source of power in California is ...........Arizona.

There was a great article in LA Times (about 2 weeks ago) about solar power. At peak production times California "ships" solar power generated to Arizona and they pay Arizona to take it.
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Old 07-08-2017, 11:52 AM   #20
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Electric vehicles are not a solution to pollution control until power generation is zero emission.

All all the current "solutions" for climate change are a gnat on a bull's $ss.

Population control is the only solution.

The planet is simply not capable of supporting 10 billion folks living in air conditioned houses and driving any powered vehicle on blacktop roads.

Regards,

JD
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