When to go electric for a tow vehicle

[Countryboy59]

Do you guys really think a $7500 tax credit matters? If the car fit my needs (by the way it doesn't; look what I drive) I wouldn't care about the tax break. Seems to me plenty of people on here probably benefit from tax breaks. Maybe eliminate all of them?

Funny this discussion comes up with a niche population (people towing $100,000 trailers) who would never be a match for an electric vehicle anyway. Then add the politics...

[Roadtech]

Not some "future car", this technology is here today. It will be coming very soon...revolutionary!

[Roadtech]

And the infrastructure is already in place...

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by slowmover

HCCI ends the thread AND the electric car.

Yes, and Infinity has a new powerplant coming out; description below....

Powertrain: The new engine, dubbed VC-T for “variable compression turbocharged,” varies its compression ratio from 8.0:1 to 14.0:1 with a system of links, an eccentric shaft, and an actuator in the inline-four’s crankcase. Within the span of 1.5 seconds, this engine can change its piston stroke from efficient, low-boost, high-compression operation to high boost and low compression for maximum power.

Incredible, amazing power and efficiency.......if it works; when it works. Having probably 100 more moving parts than a modern ICE engine and computor code to boot, these engines will be difficult to service and a nightmare to fix, as auto engineers and designers haven't been caring about serviceability for a while now.

Honda's VTC systems also change cam timing to promote efficiency, but a $2500.00+ repair bill to fix the system wasn't uncommon when I worked at Honda, to fix cars that had been poorly maintained.

The sad fact was that these people had maintained their vehicle according to the vehicles maintenance minder, designed by the marketing division to create the illusion that Honda's were cheap to maintain. It wasn't uncommon for people to arrive at the dealership for their first oil change at 16,000+ kms.

Yes, you may get 100 mpg, but it will cost you thousands in future repairs to keep it working if you don't properly maintain it.

I'll take an electric motor with only one moving part, thanks!

.....so as far as I'm concerned, this thread is still open and relevant.

Cheers
Tony

[Mollysdad]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

Do you guys really think a $7500 tax credit matters?

Well, YES!
Remember cash for clunkers? 'Nuff said.

[KK4YZ]

The main thing holding electric back right now is time-to-recharge. Solve that problem and we're there.
However that energy still has to come from somewhere. I'm skeptical that wind & solar will cut it.

[KK4YZ]

HCCI isn't the end-all solution. Efficiency improvements are said to be around 30% over conventional. Present day Hybrid technology offers that.
30% is an incremental, albeit nice, improvement.

[Isuzusweet]

I don't know who this Ludicrous guy is, but holy batgirl, batman, that SUV flew..

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/08/22/...-aventador-sv/

Cheers
Tony

[Isuzusweet]

Okay, okay, I know that most of the post depicting EV cars have not been tow vehicles per say, BUT just the fact that it seems a new EV is coming out each and everyday must say something.

EV's are here to stay.....

https://www.autoblog.com/2017/08/22/...c-hypercar-ev/

Cheers
Tony

[andreasduess]

I just spent time in Munich, Germany. Not sure about the total number of installations, but these seemed to be on most streets. Park, plug in, charge.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Mollysdad

Well, YES!
Remember cash for clunkers? 'Nuff said.

A $4500 credit might be appealing to those buying a $25,000 car but a $7500 tax credit probably means almost nothing to someone buying a $100,000 Tesla.

I'm sure they inflated the price of new cars to cover that $4500 too. I could negotiate that much off and keep my "clunker".

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

A $4500 credit might be appealing to those buying a $25,000 car but a $7500 tax credit probably means almost nothing to someone buying a $100,000 Tesla.



I'm sure they inflated the price of new cars to cover that $4500 too. I could negotiate that much off and keep my "clunker".

And remember that the $7500 credit begins phase out next year for Tesla, with the window closing likely before the end of the year.

The other manufacturers will still be eligible for some time afterward.

[jcl]

HCCI?

30% improvement in efficiency puts it about equal with a diesel.

Now, three challenges to overcome. It doesn't like variable loads, it doesn't like to start in cold ambients, and there is rapid engine wear. Apart from those, ready for prime time.

Anyone remember the Wankel rotary?

[Roadtech]

What does the Wankel rotary have anything remotely to do with the HCCI engine??? Talk about apples and oranges. The other arguments are off base as well...

[PKI]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

What does the Wankel rotary have anything remotely to do with the HCCI engine??? Talk about apples and oranges. The other arguments are off base as well...

Rotary was a good idea that had seal wear issues which were a reliability problem. Above argument makes a similar pitch that wear may be a reliability problem. Not apples and oranges - just rotten fruit in the design than may or may not be resolved to produce a viable product. New batteries make electric more viable, maybe super lube from all that fracking saves the day here. Pat

[Roadtech]

Originally Posted by PKI

Rotary was a good idea that had seal wear issues which were a reliability problem. Above argument makes a similar pitch that wear may be a reliability problem. Not apples and oranges - just rotten fruit in the design than may or may not be resolved to produce a viable product. New batteries make electric more viable, maybe super lube from all that fracking saves the day here. Pat

Say what??? No facts to back any of these assertions up...

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

What does the Wankel rotary have anything remotely to do with the HCCI engine??? Talk about apples and oranges. The other arguments are off base as well...

Rotary was mostly promoted by Mazda, after NSU. The recent flurry of press about HCCI is about the Mazda version. If that isn't a link, consider that Mazda had an earlier version of their SkyActiv HCCI called SkyActiv-r, where r stood for rotary.

Wear issues were the reason Hyundai reportedly stopped work on HCCI. High compression ratio caused failures.

Limited load range is a well understood issue with HCCI, as is cold start. Mazda may be using a spark plug so that it is a part time CI engine, to address the limited power range and cold start.

[ohmman]

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...05750X16304867

[Roadtech]

Originally Posted by ohmman

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...05750X16304867

Ok Ohmman you gotta explain this:

"Undercharging for global warming accounts for 22% of the subsidy in 2013, air pollution 46%, broader vehicle externalities 13%, supply costs 11%, and general consumer taxes 8%."

I thought subsidies meant money ($$$) that the government gives to a company in the form of cash dollars or reduced taxes (taxes that are required to be paid by the company under current law).

The above list sounds like gobbledegook to me...

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

Ok Ohmman you gotta explain this:

"Undercharging for global warming accounts for 22% of the subsidy in 2013, air pollution 46%, broader vehicle externalities 13%, supply costs 11%, and general consumer taxes 8%."

I thought subsidies meant money ($$$) that the government gives to a company in the form of cash dollars or reduced taxes (taxes that are required to be paid by the company under current law).

The above list sounds like gobbledegook to me...

Sure. So the type of subsidy you detail is a leading subsidy - one that's given on the front end (for the most part) of the transaction. These might be considered back-end subsidies.

To get the idea, imagine BCD Amalgamated, which legally dumps waste material in a nearby river. This is material that would normally cost a lot of money to process to safety, because it's poisonous. BCD does this for years to the detriment of hundreds of thousands of people and the environment. Once this dumping becomes illegal, BCD has to change the business model or go out of business, and our taxes pay for the cleanup and healthcare of individuals.

That is also a type of subsidy, we're just paying for it after the company made their money instead of beforehand. I agree that it's not what we normally think of when we think of subsidies, but I would argue it's just as important.

To be fair, I don't necessarily subscribe to the final values given by the authors, but I don't fault their methodology. If you don't like that these costs don't fit into the traditional leading subsidy definition, I welcome some other term but I haven't seen a great one yet. "Costs associated with externalities" is bandied about..