When to go electric for a tow vehicle

[DavidsonOverlander]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

My biggest “issues” with electric cars are the following:
1) Do we have trained people to fix them? Requires an entirely different set of skilled labor.
We already have a shortage of mechanics.
2). How fast do these charging stations work? Do I have to sit at a charging station for an hour? How is that practical?
3). Disposal of batteries? Cost of replacements?

I wonder if hydrogen powered vehicles are a better long run solution.

Wouldn't a lot of the same skills be needed? Cars currently have a lot of electronics in them so mechanics are already used to diagnosing problems with a diagnostic scanner and reading codes. Brakes, suspension, tires and body work will be similar. Fewer moving parts and systems will mean less maintenance so fewer people will be required to maintain vehicles. No fuel system, oil changes and exhaust to worry about! The work will be cleaner, so maybe that will make it more attractive to workers.

The article a few posts back about charging stations in Europe mentions that Porsche will have a car next year that will charge in 15 minutes for 400 km of range, and that the current chargers are being built with a power output higher than currently available cars can use, so there is room for growth in the technology.

Batteries will be recycled, and from what I've heard their use in hybrids has already shown that they have a long life.

I agree that we may see Hydrogen powered cars as well, also some continued use of ICE and hybrid ICE/electric depending on specific needs.

[LY007]

Electric cars to some degree are simpler in some aspects than traditional cars. Electric motors have very few moving parts, especially compared to 32 valve four cam V8s. And there isn't a transmission in pure electrics. And at some point there will not be hydraulic systems in electric cars... they will either use electric disc systems like trailers, or will simply use the electric motors to slow down, especially in motor-in-hub configurations.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

I wonder if hydrogen powered vehicles are a better long run solution.

Depends what you mean by hydrogen powered.

An internal combustion engine can run on hydrogen, like the BMW hydrogen 7 series did. That is a complicated way to use hydrogen, however, with lots of moving parts. Note that BMW has moved on from that technology. I managed an alternate fuel vehicle competition back in 1986, and we had a hydrogen powered truck entered by one university. Liquid hydrogen, in that case.

A second way is with a hydrogen fuel cell, which produces electricity, and then the rest of the vehicle is like other battery electric vehicles. It isn't a hydrogen powered vehicle in the same way as the one above, it is an electric vehicle with a hydrogen energy storage system.

But with both of these, we have to think about how we get the hydrogen. It isn't like we can drill for it. It is typically produced using natural gas, or solar cells. Better IMO not to think of it as an energy source, but as a component of an energy storage system. It is the same as thinking that our cell phones run on lithium. They run on electricity, stored in a lithium battery. So I think of hydrogen fuel cell vehicles as a type of electric vehicle; the fuel cell represents one potential solution for longer range and faster recharging.

[HHPJ]

Originally Posted by USAtraveler

The electric power naysayers in this thread are missing the boat, IMO (and getting some facts wrong, too). California is leading the nation in switching to clean electric power in homes, business, and transportation. SoCalEd may still have a contract to buy power from coal burning gen plants in the 4 corners, but its not up for renewal. In NorCal, the primary for profit, investor owned power supplier, PG&E, gets 0.0% from coal.
Understanding our energy sources.

About half of the electricity we deliver is a combination of renewable and greenhouse gas-free resources. For example, the power mix delivered in 2016 included:

Non-emitting nuclear generation (24 percent)

• Large hydroelectric facilities (12 percent)
• Eligible renewable resources, such as wind, geothermal, biomass, solar and small hydro (33 percent).
• Natural gas/other (17 percent)
• Unspecified power (13 percent). not traceable to specific sources by any auditable contract trail. (thermal steam gen)

Data is sourced from PG&E’s 10K report, filed in February 2017.


In addition, under a state law that authorized community power aggregation, a growing number of local governments are taking over power delivery from the 3 large investor owned utilities. The CCA's supply a larger percentage of renewable clean electric power.


CA leads the nation in the number of electric and hybrid electric vehicles. But the leading indicator of when to shop for an all electric or hybrid TV is not what Tesla or Chevy Volt is developing. Instead, look at what large road truck mfg's are working on. The technology is sneaking up on you faster than you think!

The issue is not people as naysayers in the sense that electoral could or could not work, but the practical application of electrical for towing today.

The answer is that for now, it’s not. The reasons for this fact are many factors, which many have already touched on. Which makes your one sided pie in the sky approach unpersuasive. I won’t even get into the waste and storage aspect and the resulting environmental issues we face today, based on your suggested power generation list. Ask the State of Nevada as one example. Or the Colorado river agency, or Owens Valley, which Los Angeles raped for its water generation hydrology project. Or do a search on battery disposal, or even production.

As long as OPEC is alive and well, oil will be a fact of life, for the world, for a long time to come.

I don’t know what you tow with, but I bet it’s the same Technology as what the naysayers tow with.

[Daquenzer]

At this point a hybrid is most reasonable for rural areas. I just don’t see any time soon expensive recharging stations in rural areas. And what about at home? I can imagine real identifiable issues with chargers in a home. Cost? Capacity in the grid? Can’t imagine waiting even 15 minutes at a station recharging. And right now most total electric cars have limited range. Add extra weight to engine that would be less time. I can see for commuting but not for long trips. Battery technology isn’t there yet.

[Daquenzer]

To top off Tesla is about bankrupt. And there are real problems in California with the grid and efficiency costs.

[Daquenzer]

None are making any money as well. The technology just isn’t competitive for typical buyer yet. Still a novelty. It may get there. Hybrid technology is more practical for long range trips.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

At this point a hybrid is most reasonable for rural areas. I just don’t see any time soon expensive recharging stations in rural areas. And what about at home? I can imagine real identifiable issues with chargers in a home. Cost? Capacity in the grid? Can’t imagine waiting even 15 minutes at a station recharging. And right now most total electric cars have limited range. Add extra weight to engine that would be less time. I can see for commuting but not for long trips. Battery technology isn’t there yet.

The thread is titled "When to go electric for a tow vehicle", not "everyone should switch to electric for a tow vehicle now".

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

My biggest “issues” with electric cars are the following:
1) Do we have trained people to fix them? Requires an entirely different set of skilled labor.
We already have a shortage of mechanics.
2). How fast do these charging stations work? Do I have to sit at a charging station for an hour? How is that practical?
3). Disposal of batteries? Cost of replacements?

I wonder if hydrogen powered vehicles are a better long run solution.

1. Mechanics are already trained to work on hybrids. Electric drive trains need less work than engines.

2. Quick charge an hour, slow charge overnight

3. Batteries are valuable for recycling. Cost of replacements is less than a new engine, by quite a bit.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

None are making any money as well. The technology just isn’t competitive for typical buyer yet. Still a novelty. It may get there. Hybrid technology is more practical for long range trips.

Far from a novelty. I see them everywhere now. And cost is coming down quickly.

Doesn’t fit everyone’s needs but definitely works well for many commuters.

[mojo]

Originally Posted by Countryboy59

Far from a novelty. I see them everywhere now.

Really?

[Daquenzer]

Most electric cars are commuters. My son is an electrical engineer that works on batteries. I asked, “Are batteries getting better?” He said a little, but not much. I also asked him about cold weather, because when it’s 0 out batteries don’t work as well. He said their efficiency goes down because they have to heat the car inside as well. Then he said it takes about 20 minutes to charge a battery and the range is about 200 miles.

So no one goes down all the way to no charge. So that means every 150 miles you would have to stop 20 minutes to charge. And in the winter more. I don’t see going to an electric car to tow for quite some time.

[Isuzusweet]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

Most electric cars are commuters. My son is an electrical engineer that works on batteries. I asked, “Are batteries getting better?” He said a little, but not much. I also asked him about cold weather, because when it’s 0 out batteries don’t work as well. He said their efficiency goes down because they have to heat the car inside as well. Then he said it takes about 20 minutes to charge a battery and the range is about 200 miles.

So no one goes down all the way to no charge. So that means every 150 miles you would have to stop 20 minutes to charge. And in the winter more. I don’t see going to an electric car to tow for quite some time.

Just curious....how many times have you towed your trailer in freezing temperatures?

Yes an electric vehicles range does decrease the more you use electricity to heat said vehicle, but even that is getting better by leaps and bounds.

We are not there yet, but it's coming soon.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

[Daquenzer]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

Just curious....how many times have you towed your trailer in freezing temperatures?

Yes an electric vehicles range does decrease the more you use electricity to heat said vehicle, but even that is getting better by leaps and bounds.

We are not there yet, but it's coming soon.

Cheers
Sidekick Tony

Actually for 2 weeks this April.

And then there is air conditioning which actually takes MORE energy. I suppose you could run with the windows rolled down. Not a great selling point however.

And what about the infrastructure to charge cars? That just doesn’t happen. It has to be profitable or forget it.

I have yet to see one charging place in Wisconsin. With only 2% of all car sales electric do you really think there will be the motivation to build such an expensive infrastructure?

We are a long way off from electric cars being the norm UNLESS there is a way for a vehicle to have its own capability of generating electricity. Charging stations are a joke. Would you sit for 20 minutes waiting to fill a tank of gas? Do you really think the consuming public that is use to fast food will?

No way it is coming soon. Tesla is going broke. If they can’t do it with all that capital behind it I doubt others will invest only to see the investments lost UNLESS the technology takes a MAJOR leap. And batteries only have a limited capability with regard to holding power and getting power.

A 12 volt, lead-acid battery for your car costs roughly the same today as it did in 1981 with slightly improved performance.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michael.../#46abdd876dac

Thus unless there is some kind of fuel cell that can create electricity I doubt it will happen any time soon.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

I have yet to see one charging place in Wisconsin. With only 2% of all car sales electric do you really think there will be the motivation to build such an expensive infrastructure?

I am looking at a map with of charging stations in Wisconsin. I even see one in Bailey's Harbor, on WI 57. And another in Fish Creek.

On the other hand, my city is rapidly eliminating gasoline and diesel fueling stations. On the downtown peninsula in Vancouver, where I live, there is now one fueling station, and it will close soon. We drive out of downtown to purchase fuel. I just looked it up, and there are 18 public charging stations in that same downtown area, but most people just charge at home or work.

I don't know anyone charging a lead acid battery for motive power, unless they have a golf cart.

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

And then there is air conditioning which actually takes MORE energy. I suppose you could run with the windows rolled down. Not a great selling point however.

That's not true with electric cars. Air conditioning doesn't affect range much at all, but cold weather does. There is a battery heater to keep the cells safe and efficient, and the cabin heat on all electric cars is current resistance heating. It's possible they'll move to a heat pump at some point to get a higher COP. But AC barely nudges the needle. This is different from an ICE because the ICE is generating waste heat as a matter of combustion inefficiency. I towed with the AC running all last summer in my EV and it wasn't an issue.

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

I have yet to see one charging place in Wisconsin. With only 2% of all car sales electric do you really think there will be the motivation to build such an expensive infrastructure?

Have you been looking? Check out http://plugshare.com. There are hundreds in Wisconsin. Not to mention that anyone who buys one likely throws at 14-50 in their garage as well.

Originally Posted by Daquenzer

We are a long way off from electric cars being the norm UNLESS there is a way for a vehicle to have its own capability of generating electricity. Charging stations are a joke. Would you sit for 20 minutes waiting to fill a tank of gas? Do you really think the consuming public that is use to fast food will?

What I think is funny is that you go to the gas station at all. How much time do you spend there weekly? Because I don't spend a single minute at the gas station unless I am on a road trip. Add up all the time you spend filling up on a regular basis and I bet I spend less time than you, because I wake up with two "full tanks" every morning.

I understand that you have limited experience with them, so you have an opinion based in your experience with ICE and what you "imagine" to be the case with them. But I can confirm that I do indeed currently tow my AS with an EV, and while it's not currently as convenient as with an ICE, it's also not all that inconvenient. Things have improved even since I've purchased my TV two years ago.

[Roadtech]

Originally Posted by ohmman

What I think is funny is that you go to the gas station at all. How much time do you spend there weekly? Because I don't spend a single minute at the gas station unless I am on a road trip. Add up all the time you spend filling up on a regular basis and I bet I spend less time than you, because I wake up with two "full tanks" every morning.

I don't think that is the point. It's not comparing how much total time you spend recharging/refueling, but it's the time you spend on the road recharging compared to refueling. If you are on a tight schedule or an emergency comes up, it is going to be very frustrating to have to wait on long charging times. EV's will not become popular with the general public until the charging time gets close to refueling time when you are on a trip.

[ohmman]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

I don't think that is the point. It's not comparing how much total time you spend recharging/refueling, but it's the time you spend on the road recharging compared to refueling. If you are on a tight schedule or an emergency comes up, it is going to be very frustrating to have to wait on long charging times. EV's will not become popular with the general public until the charging time gets close to refueling time when you are on a trip.

It’s relevant to the point, though.

In over four years of exclusive EV driving and over 80k miles, 20 minutes of charging hasn’t been an issue for me, but I understand that fear and worry do drive human decision making. And for some, it could be significantly more annoying.

Widespread towing with EVs isn’t here. I remain confident it will be, because an EV has a superior powertrain for precisely this kind of task. Let’s see how the commercial EV truck market evolves, because I think that’s a reasonable precursor to towing campers.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by Roadtech

I don't think that is the point. It's not comparing how much total time you spend recharging/refueling, but it's the time you spend on the road recharging compared to refueling. If you are on a tight schedule or an emergency comes up, it is going to be very frustrating to have to wait on long charging times. EV's will not become popular with the general public until the charging time gets close to refueling time when you are on a trip.

Most people won’t recharge “on the road” at all. The vast majority of people drive to work, lunch, and home. I’m on the high end but it adds up to 80 miles per day for me, worst case. That’s well within the range of any EV. We have pool cars for longer trips or carrying heavy items if needed.

Folks who do jobs where they need to drive across the state on a moment’s notice may need to forgo the EV option. But many people simply go to work and home every day.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by mojo

Really?

Yes, really. Not 50% or anything but I see them daily. About 10 in the lot at work every day. Never thought I would see that.