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Old 04-27-2013, 04:38 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner3

I set my bar jacks at 6" like you also. My truck is a crew cab.

Do you have any close profile pictures of the hitch with the trailer attached to the truck?

The picture I attached looks like I am sitting on a slope. Just poor photography. The trailer is sitting level with the hitch setup you see.

I am sure Sean will be able to work through this with you.
Just looked through all my pics - none like that. I measured front and back of trailer to the ground and only off by 1/2". Sean said going up one hole in that case wouldn't help much. Do you have scale tickets for yours, ridgerunnner3?
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:39 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
Am I rong, both sets of tickets look the same...

Bob
You're right - same set of 3 tickets - only meant to include one...it's the same set...
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:17 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
Just looked through all my pics - none like that. I measured front and back of trailer to the ground and only off by 1/2". Sean said going up one hole in that case wouldn't help much. Do you have scale tickets for yours, ridgerunnner3?
What about tow vehicle steering axle measurements?, get the weights/measurements right there, then you can work on getting the trailer back to level if needed.

Bob
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:38 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS

What about tow vehicle steering axle measurements?, get the weights/measurements right there, then you can work on getting the trailer back to level if needed.

Bob
Meaning wheel well height? It's within a half inch of unloaded. I'm a rookie - I'm sure I'm missing something. :-/
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:03 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by SteveSueMac View Post
Just looked through all my pics - none like that. I measured front and back of trailer to the ground and only off by 1/2". Sean said going up one hole in that case wouldn't help much. Do you have scale tickets for yours, ridgerunnner3?
I'll need to go to my camper to get my weigh tickets.

Your truck must be a diesel with the front end weight you recorded.

Did you weigh all three times on the same scales during the same trip?

Did you setup the tilt on the stinger so that it was level to the ground with the truck parked on a level surface? I think your stinger tilt angle could be your problem. This is one item that is very easy to check. I believe the stinger tilting up (even slightly) would give you less weight distribution at 6" on the bar jacks than level to slightly pointing down.
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Old 04-27-2013, 06:35 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ridgerunner3

I'll need to go to my camper to get my weigh tickets.

Your truck must be a diesel with the front end weight you recorded.

Did you weigh all three times on the same scales during the same trip?

Did you setup the tilt on the stinger so that it was level to the ground with the truck parked on a level surface? I think your stinger tilt angle could be your problem. This is one item that is very easy to check. I believe the stinger tilting up (even slightly) would give you less weight distribution at 6" on the bar jacks than level to slightly pointing down.
Yes, it's a Duramax 2500 and yes, all 3 tickets are on the same scale in the span of less than 2 hours.

I have zero washers behind the rivet on the hitch - long story, but that's something I worked out with Sean. It's level at zero washers but a washer or two would push it on a bit of a downward angle toward the trailer and I can see how that might improve the WD. Could that be the cause of my loss of an additional 60 lbs on the steer axle when I applied another inch on the jacks??
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:01 PM   #35
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Any other thoughts on why the steer axle would LOSE 60 pounds with more WD applied? Pretty confusing! :-}

Only one answer...your not applying more lift on the bars.
Tilting the head down a bit and more WD.

FWIW....my first trip to the scales. First weight no WD, second max WD. That way I had a base I could work from.

We run a 2500 Burb, Hensley with 1000lb bars. Now the Burb is nowhere near as stiff as the D-max, but we still have to bend those bars to apply enough force.

Pic is with a 4" drop I now use 6" and trailer is level with the same WD settings.

Bob
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:17 PM   #36
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A couple additional notes. One one of these trips I sat in the truck (I'm pretty sure it was the 3rd one) while the other 2 I was standing on the steer axle scale outside the truck as the operator wasn't giving me any time to adjust....
If you were standing on the steer axle pad instead of sitting in the cab,
the steer axle load would be too heavy and the drive axle load would be too light.
But, the trailer axles load would be unaffected.

When going from 6" to 7", the trailer axle load increased by 40#.
In theory, the steer axle load should have increased by about 80# and the drive axle load should have decreased by about 120#.
The data show the steer axle decreased by 60# and the drive axle increased by 20#.

The data suggest that an extra load of approximately 140# was on the steer axle during the 6" weighing.
If we reduce the steer axle load for 6" from 4480# to 4340# and increase the drive axle load from 4260# to 4400#,
the steer axle load, when going from 6" to 7", increases by 4420-4340 = 80# and the drive axle load decreases by 4400-4280 = 120#.

Those results make much more sense to me.

This analysis assumes a TV wheelbase of 160", TV ball overhang of 64", and ball to TT axles midpoint of 242".
Other values will have a small effect on the results.

Using the assumed TV/TT dimensions and the "adjusted" scales values gives:
for 6" -- tongue weight = 938# with 18# transferred to trailer axles,
for 7" -- tongue weight = 940# with 61# transferred to trailer axles.

The indicated tongue weight might be less than actual if the TT was in a nose-down attitude when axle loads were measured.

Ron
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:45 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ROBERT CROSS
FWIW....my first trip to the scales. First weight no WD, second max WD. That way I had a base I could work from.
Since I have the empty truck weights, I can do a run over the scales hitched but without the WD applied and then another run w/7" or more applied to the jacks. I think I may also need to put in a washer to tilt the stinger down a tad.

Thanks
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:59 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Gratz
If you were standing on the steer axle pad instead of sitting in the cab,
the steer axle load would be too heavy and the drive axle load would be too light.
But, the trailer axles load would be unaffected.

When going from 6" to 7", the trailer axle load increased by 40#.
In theory, the steer axle load should have increased by about 80# and the drive axle load should have decreased by about 120#.
The data show the steer axle decreased by 60# and the drive axle increased by 20#.

The data suggest that an extra load of approximately 140# was on the steer axle during the 6" weighing.
If we reduce the steer axle load for 6" from 4480# to 4340# and increase the drive axle load from 4260# to 4400#,
the steer axle load, when going from 6" to 7", increases by 4420-4340 = 80# and the drive axle load decreases by 4400-4280 = 120#.

Those results make much more sense to me.

This analysis assumes a TV wheelbase of 160", TV ball overhang of 64", and ball to TT axles midpoint of 242".
Other values will have a small effect on the results.

Using the assumed TV/TT dimensions and the "adjusted" scales values gives:
for 6" -- tongue weight = 938# with 18# transferred to trailer axles,
for 7" -- tongue weight = 940# with 61# transferred to trailer axles.

The indicated tongue weight might be less than actual if the TT was in a nose-down attitude when axle loads were measured.

Ron
Thanks Ron - I can't pretend to understand the math you're using but I'm really grateful for the analysis. I haven't weighed 140 lbs in a long time so I'm not sure how that figure is the extra load of standing on the platform vs. sitting in the driver's seat of the TV. Again I'm not quite sure how you got to the calculations but your recalculation suggests I was actually getting more on the steer axle with 7" than the scales suggest. That's of some comfort. I'm going to see about inserting a washer in the drawbar to angle it slightly downward and recheck level across the rig. Next time I will be 100% sure the weights will all be calculated with me in the drover's seat so there is no difference.

I'm curious - How did you calculate tongue weight?

Thanks again for the thoughtful, detailed insights.
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:12 PM   #39
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--- I haven't weighed 140 lbs in a long time so I'm not sure how that figure is the extra load of standing on the platform vs. sitting in the driver's seat of the TV.---
I don't want to offend, so please keep in mind that the analysis is based on scales data which are not 100% accurate and assumptions which also can be erroneous.

So, just for example, if a person weighs 280# and 50% of his weight is carried on the front axle when seated in the front seat, the front axle would carry 140#
If the person then moves from the cab to the steer axle pad, the load on the pad would increase by 280-140 = 140#.
If your weight is nowhere close to 280#, then I need to rework my analysis.

Quote:
I'm curious - How did you calculate tongue weight?
The net load removed from the front axle is a function of three TV/TT dimensions and two unknowns: 1) the tongue weight, and 2) the load transferred to the TT axles by the WDH.

The net load added to the rear axle is a different function of the same TV/TT dimensions and the two unknowns.

This means we have two simultaneous equations from which the two unknowns can be calculated when we know three TV/TT dimensions and the net load changes for the front and rear axles.

Again, assumptions must be made and that leaves room for error.

Ron
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Old 04-27-2013, 09:38 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Gratz
I don't want to offend, so please keep in mind that the analysis is based on scales data which are not 100% accurate and assumptions which also can be erroneous.

So, just for example, if a person weighs 280# and 50% of his weight is carried on the front axle when seated in the front seat, the front axle would carry 140#
If the person then moves from the cab to the steer axle pad, the load on the pad would increase by 280-140 = 140#.
If your weight is nowhere close to 280#, then I need to rework my analysis.

The net load removed from the front axle is a function of three TV/TT dimensions and two unknowns: 1) the tongue weight, and 2) the load transferred to the TT axles by the WDH.

The net load added to the rear axle is a different function of the same TV/TT dimensions and the two unknowns.

This means we have two simultaneous equations from which the two unknowns can be calculated when we know three TV/TT dimensions and the net load changes for the front and rear axles.

Again, assumptions must be made and that leaves room for error.

Ron
No offense taken. 271 on my bathroom scale this morning - thankfully this is just between you and me! Oh, and it's mostly muscle. :-)

Now that we have that out of the way, that makes sense - of course the driver's weight would be spread over 2 TV axles!

Is it also odd then that if the trailer weighs 6280 that the TW is 15% (940)?
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:10 AM   #41
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The 60 lbs. makes no sense. Something may have gone wrong during the weighing process as previously discussed.

My stinger has no washer behind the rivet with a level stinger.

It should take considerable effort to go from 6" to 7" on the wd bar jacks if the tongue jack is in the up position.
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Old 04-28-2013, 07:15 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by Ridgerunner3
The 60 lbs. makes no sense. Something may have gone wrong during the weighing process as previously discussed.

My stinger has no washer behind the rivet with a level stinger.

It should take considerable effort to go from 6" to 7" on the wd bar jacks if the tongue jack is in the up position.
Yes, being on the platform vs in the truck explains the math problem. I use an 18v cordless impact wrench on the jacks and it torques out before I get to 7" so I complete the job with the ratchet Sean includes with the hitch. It's not too difficult but you can certainly feel it!
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