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Old 04-27-2015, 06:45 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasduess View Post
brakes designed for mass rather than speed...
What does that mean?
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Old 04-27-2015, 08:30 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasduess View Post
I respect your choice of tow vehicle and applaud your desire to be safe.

Where the big misconception, for many people on this forum, happens is when they equate size with safety. Nothing could be further from the truth.

While vehicle weight is important, it is also important to understand that trucks, or the big body on frame SUVs, are not inherently and automatically the safest vehicles on the road - quite the opposite is often true. A high centre of gravity, antiquated suspension setups, unequal weigh distribution, brakes designed for mass rather than speed all come together to create a vehicle that would not stand a chance competing against a modern unibody SUV or even a van on the test track. A longer stopping distance, lower lane change speed and a higher likelihood for rollover accidents are all the direct result of those vehicle's designs.

Adding a trailer does not suddenly reverse this performance deficit, if anything you're now towing with a vehicle that is far more likely to be the cause of an accident rather than to help prevent it.

I am not against trucks, but to think that a truck automatically delivers a safe towing experience is wrong.
I dont think "wieght" of TV has anything to do with it. The pickup I have is designed to carry heavy payloads, and tow. The modern trucks suspension, and breaks are in no way antiquated. Brakes designed for stopping power, mass as you say, are exactly what you need towing. Brakes for speed would be for a 2000# race car. My drive trane, from motor to wheels is designed for what I'm towinig. My transmission helps brake the rig, my tires are load E, giving more stability. The difference in TV will be found in an evasive manuver, in a sudden wind change, it will be when your not ready. I'm not saying everone needs a truck, Im saying match your TV to your trailer. Obviously a 40' toy hauler, and a 6' lawn trailer dont need the same TV, but a lot of cars should never tow more than the lawn trailer. I'm sorry, but saying a minivans brakes are more suited for towing than a truck/SUV, or it's suspension is more suited for towing than ANY other vehicle is ridiculous. Thats like say my truck would be a better Indy car.
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Old 04-27-2015, 08:43 AM   #45
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REALLY Andreas??

Quote:
Originally Posted by andreasduess View Post
I respect your choice of tow vehicle and applaud your desire to be safe.

Where the big misconception, for many people on this forum, happens is when they equate size with safety. Nothing could be further from the truth.

While vehicle weight is important, it is also important to understand that trucks, or the big body on frame SUVs, are not inherently and automatically the safest vehicles on the road - quite the opposite is often true. A high centre of gravity, antiquated suspension setups, unequal weigh distribution, brakes designed for mass rather than speed all come together to create a vehicle that would not stand a chance competing against a modern unibody SUV or even a van on the test track. A longer stopping distance, lower lane change speed and a higher likelihood for rollover accidents are all the direct result of those vehicle's designs.

Adding a trailer does not suddenly reverse this performance deficit, if anything you're now towing with a vehicle that is far more likely to be the cause of an accident rather than to help prevent it.

I am not against trucks, but to think that a truck automatically delivers a safe towing experience is wrong.
Andreas, your statement above just has me shaking my head. Not seeing much truth in what you have typed..at all. So you're telling all of us here that our trucks have antiquated suspension systems, un-equal weight distribution, and for the life of me I am trying to understand the difference between a brake system designed for "mass rather than speed" truly means. Please explain? Really want to hear that one.

So all of us here pulling with a truck have a higher likelihood to rollover in an accident than your "SUV"? Really? My longer wheelbase truck will roll faster than your SUV?
Are you throwing physics completely out the window?
When you argue with math, you WILL lose.
Why do you say ALL of us are wrong?
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Old 04-27-2015, 10:15 AM   #46
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F150 can have a tow capacity up to 11000#, Honda is 3500#. Maybe the engineers dont understand the braking power that the Honda has, or it incredable stability.
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:05 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishinHatteras View Post
Andreas, your statement above just has me shaking my head. Not seeing much truth in what you have typed..at all. So you're telling all of us here that our trucks have antiquated suspension systems, un-equal weight distribution, and for the life of me I am trying to understand the difference between a brake system designed for "mass rather than speed" truly means. Please explain? Really want to hear that one.

So all of us here pulling with a truck have a higher likelihood to rollover in an accident than your "SUV"? Really? My longer wheelbase truck will roll faster than your SUV?
Are you throwing physics completely out the window?
When you argue with math, you WILL lose.
Why do you say ALL of us are wrong?
But the physics supports Andreas' argument.

A truck is designed to carry weight, preferably over the rear axle. That axle is strong and benefits from leaf springs in order to counter the downward force of the load. The high center of gravity helps with load in that it allows for some depression but that CoG is mostly to get the driver sitting high and thinking he's in a higher and supposedly better position than his fellow road users. The frame on a truck is strong, too, as it can support that downward weight quite well, but because the frames are narrow, it also means that trucks necessarily have a narrow suspension stance and they are prone to twist with uneven lateral forces applied

The problem is that all the attributes of a truck, don't make for a sure-footed and agile vehicle. If they did then race cars would all have a high CoG, use leaf springs and have a longitudinal frame. In reality, of course, race cars are made wide (with a form of unibody construction) and low, have independent coil sprung suspension and perform very well in both a straight line and around corners. That is applied physics.

Of course your truck will roll before a minivan or a sedan! Of course it will lag behind in a slalom! Yes, it can carry some stuff, but part of the towing equation is the agility of both the trailer and the TV. The Airstream is probably the most agile trailer on the market; low(for a TT), wide and independently sprung, so I don't see why the hostility to the benefits of an agile, and inherently safer, sedan or minivan to tow such a thoroughbred travel trailer.
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:07 PM   #48
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Don't go telling people about loosing to math and physics unless you actually plan on defending your position with it.

The physics 101 answer to there kinds of questions goes like this:

Assume the vehicles will lock up their wheels so that I can apply a simple analysis of sliding friction. The frictional force Ff is dependent only on the normal force N between the vehicles and the surface and on the coefficient of friction μ between the tires and the road.

Ff=μN=μMg
where M is the mass of the vehicle and g is the acceleration due to gravity.

From this we can compute the acceleration due to friction as

af=FfM=μg
and the stopping distance as

d=v22(af)=v22μg
where v is the speed of the car at the moment the brakes are applied.

You will notice that this does not depend on the mass of the car. So both vehicles stop in the same distance.

Now, the real world answer is, some brakes are better than others. a 4 piston caliper will perform better than a 2 or single piston, larger rotors equal more stopping surface, etc. So your results can vary. Different years of vehicles also perform differently based on changes, so again, you're arguing a lot of semantics.

PS Mr. Toad, my Ram does not have leaf springs in the rear.
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Old 04-27-2015, 12:12 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FishinHatteras View Post
So you're telling all of us here that our trucks have antiquated suspension systems
No, just Ford and Chevy owners, as both Toyota and Ram have moved to rear coils and sway bars.
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Old 04-27-2015, 01:18 PM   #50
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What TV would you buy with these considerations?

The story is mainly COG. Higher that is, the worse the vehicle. An AS trailer behind a better TV can get thru a slalom course faster than a pickup can while solo.

A pickup is built as a compromise.

A sedan can pull a low trailer and equal or exceed the payload capacity of a pickup. But what it cannot so easily do is travel off pavement. But neither can an AS trailer to any real degree.

The convenience of a pickup to carry a few things in back, and enough ground clearance to afford ranchers, farmers and construction workers some ease at their tasks is the pickup market, in essence.

Slow, cumbersome and limited on-road.

A one ton pickup or van is a fair TV for a full timer. Four seasons of clothing, gear and whatnot. A vacationer, limited in time and distances, can do better.

Why accept inferior performance from the TV year round and especially while towing?

Electronic devices make pickups better than they used to be. But when they roll -- where a car will simply spin out -- is the far higher risk of very serious injury present.

Best towing practice as with any other on-road endeavor is to minimize risk. Talk of skill makes the speaker laughable. Statistics are otherwise.

Want a long life (as an ER doctor once posed the question), then avoid car wrecks and being gunshot.

A TV that otherwise meets solo duty and that can pull the AS is the place to start. Keep the risk lower and one is also rewarded with easier days behind the wheel. Solo or towing.

A truly aero TT with fully independent suspension (and upgrading to anti lock disc brakes) is the important decision. The TV and dependently, the hitch type, is second.

Those who have only ever used the worst TV by design -- a pickup -- are in for a surprise. And not the one they expect.
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Old 04-27-2015, 02:02 PM   #51
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It is quite alright if someone thinks I am backward or slow for towing with a 1/2 ton pickup. It doesn't matter what they think. I am not convinced. I don't see the danger to myself or others. I don't the my truck 'n' trailer are a menace to society. Of all the vehicles in my stable, I am sure the Tundra is more up to the task than my Pathfinder, Road King, or Avalon-
It doesn't matter what others think unless they are planning to buy me a new tow vehicle, along with the tag, insurance fuel, and upkeep. Ya see, it's like this- I ain't got no money.
I ain't got no this/that/whatever has always been the story of my life-


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Old 04-27-2015, 02:21 PM   #52
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There is at least the implication in all these arguments that "a good handling sedan based tow vehicle" is needed for safe, towing and keeping the rubber side down.

To that I say "hooey". Bunch of hogwash. Really and truly it comes down to driver skill and proper defensive driving practices. Proof of that is there are countless drivers of big rigs, and over the road busses that have a million plus miles of safe, accident free driving in all sorts of driving conditions. Their skill and correctly thought out driving practice allows them to drive these "poor handling, top heavy" vehicles safely.

I've been driving ( and towing ) and riding motorcycles on the roads for 47 years. I honestly cannot remember "ever" having to execute a slalom maneuver in order to avoid an accident. If I had, I would have pointed the finger right back at myself for having used poor defensive techniques.
All of my "spirited" driving has been on racetracks, in both sportcars and on motorcycles.

Bottom line is I feel very safe when towing with both my 4WD Frontier and 4WD F350 dually. Leaf springs, and anti roll bars in the back on both...
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Old 04-27-2015, 03:28 PM   #53
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<…"Regarding the batteries, I'm thinking the same thing. I'm sure that they are helpful but I don't know if I really have the need for all four. This is especially true since I plan to pick up a couple of Honda generators (very hot here in the summer), although that would probably just be an equal switch in weight.">

Jami20,

While the previous posters make good and important points, one of the issues not addressed so far is the idea of carrying those generators inside the passenger space. Would you intend to empty the fuel after each use, while you travel? Where would you carry the extra gas? I for one wouldn't want to be traveling with those fumes. In addition, the generators and gas could add almost 100 lbs to the payload.

I think Andy and others make valid points about performance and safety, but it seems that using a passenger vehicle or small SUV as a TV severely limits how one would be able to travel.
In addition to the gen/fuel issue, where and how would you stow your bikes, kayaks, tools, etc. etc.? What about their weight adding to the payload?

Is the choice really safety vs capacity?

I'm not trying to stir things up - I just don't see how else we could travel the way we want to without a pickup.

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Old 04-27-2015, 05:32 PM   #54
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I towed a '12 28' Intl CCD with an Infinity QX56 for two years. It towed beautifully, but I was very concerned about the tongue weight. As I recall, "as delivered" it was 950 lbs, which was the heaviest tongue weight of any Airstream manufactured that year. While I towed it with a PP, and it did fine, I tried to limit what I was putting in the back of the SUV. Eventually, I decided to join the truck crew and bought a '14 Ram 2500 with Cummins. My concern about a heavy tongue weight disappeared.
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Old 04-27-2015, 05:47 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoldAdventure View Post
Don't go telling people about loosing to math and physics unless you actually plan on defending your position with it.

The physics 101 answer to there kinds of questions goes like this:

Assume the vehicles will lock up their wheels so that I can apply a simple analysis of sliding friction. The frictional force Ff is dependent only on the normal force N between the vehicles and the surface and on the coefficient of friction μ between the tires and the road.

Ff=μN=μMg
where M is the mass of the vehicle and g is the acceleration due to gravity.

From this we can compute the acceleration due to friction as

af=FfM=μg
and the stopping distance as

d=v22(af)=v22μg
where v is the speed of the car at the moment the brakes are applied.

You will notice that this does not depend on the mass of the car. So both vehicles stop in the same distance.

Now, the real world answer is, some brakes are better than others. a 4 piston caliper will perform better than a 2 or single piston, larger rotors equal more stopping surface, etc. So your results can vary. Different years of vehicles also perform differently based on changes, so again, you're arguing a lot of semantics.

PS Mr. Toad, my Ram does not have leaf springs in the rear.
Except that tires don't follow the classical curves:



So all else being equal, a lighter vehicle will stop (and corner) faster.

What the pickup truck might have, and what the 3/4 ton truck does have, is brakes with more thermal mass to avoid overheating and fading during a panic stop or on a long downhill grade.
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Old 04-27-2015, 05:59 PM   #56
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Quote:
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Except that tires don't follow the classical curves:



So all else being equal, a lighter vehicle will stop (and corner) faster.

What the pickup truck might have, and what the 3/4 ton truck does have, is brakes with more thermal mass to avoid overheating and fading during a panic stop or on a long downhill grade.
Got me there. But I wanted to highlight that mass is not part of the equation as some always claim it is.

I wasn't going to go into it with my end comment in my post, but I was thinking about the fact that the 1 ton's and some 3/4 tons have hydro-boost over the vacuum boost which also provides better line pressure under those conditions.
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