we need to select a new tow vehicle

[chegard]

WE bought a 2013 FB 22 sport. We had a Ford expedition with towing package, purchased an Equalizer hitch. Towing was great until vehicle died. Too expensive and too old to fix. We will be upgrading our AS in 2 years to 25-27 ft. Not sure.
We are looking at Ford 250 diesel power stroke which seems to have the tow capabilities we want. I see other members talking about making sure your tow vehicle does not abuse the AS. How does that happen and what is the Airsafe that others are referring to.

Can I leave my equalizer hit on the AS and adjust to the new tow vehicle? Thanks for any advice.

[jdalrymple]

Your question will no doubt stir up all manor of debate.

You asked about a 3/4 ton truck and the Airsafe hitch. I would like to comment on that.

We converted to Airstreams from a large SOB fifth wheel for several reasons. Thus, I owned a 2500 Duramax when we acquired our first Airstream, an early 80's 31' International. This combination towed very well.

I like the 3/4 truck not only because of it's towing capability, but it's payload as well.

Dry camping for a week at a Nascar race, 10 days at Burning Man or two weeks in the back county of Colorado hunting elk. I can load 100 gallons of water, whatever provisions and gear I choose and know I can tow my trailer safely and comfortably.

A 1/2 ton, sedan or mini van do not offer those options.


We decided to upgrade our trailer and chose a 27FB. We noticed items being bounced around in the rear of the trailer after a trip down a rough road.

I ran into a fellow who had to repair his trailer after the front wall had separated from the frame, mostly due to the rough ride of his 1 ton Econoline utility van. He is a full-timer, and traveled with all his possessions in the box of the van. He recommended the Airsafe hitch, as it had solved his issues after the repair.

In order to offer the payload, a 3/4 or one ton truck has a stiffer rear suspension. These stiffer springs make the ride a bit harder and some of the shock of a rough bridge or bump in the road can be transferred to the front of the trailer.

With this hitch, an airbag dampens the shock of the truck suspension from the trailer.It certainly made a difference for us. Items are where we left them at the end of the day.


A long rambling post, but we like our big truck and it's capabilities. I am sure the trailer likes the Airsafe.

If an upgrade to a larger trailer is in the plan, a 3/4 ton would make a nice rig. It allows one to take items along that enhance the trip with little concern for payload or loading.

An Airsafe is a good investment toward an easy long life for your new trailer.

Regards,

JD

[Ridgerunner3]

The very large brakes of the 250/2500 trucks are also a very strong positive for that size truck vs lighter trucks, suv's & minivans.

[Big C]

We own a Garden Center and do lots of landscaping, so lots of towing is involved. For the last 12 years we have owned F350's (single axle) diesel trucks. First the 7.2's and now the 6.7. We can go anywhere, up or down any hill or mountain fully loaded with ease. Never had a problem with damage to our 31 ft Sov.
That said, when towing our Airstream 60-65 mph. Slow and easy travel, watching the road gets you there.

[andreasduess]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner3

The very large brakes of the 250/2500 trucks are also a very strong positive for that size truck vs lighter trucks, suv's & minivans.

Assuming your trailer brakes are in good condition, any TV should experience a shortened stopping distance with the trailer in tow. The trailer brakes the TV.

Also, most modern minivans are designed for eight passengers plus luggage. Our Odyssey has a max payload of close to 1400lbs. They come with ample brake power, so even in the event of a catastrophic failure of the trailer's brakes, they'll have the reserves needed to bring both vehicles to a stop.

For me, the disadvantages of a truck outweigh the advantages.

[MaxTow]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

Also, most modern minivans are designed for eight passengers plus luggage. Our Odyssey has a max payload of close to 1400lbs. They come with ample brake power, so even in the event of a catastrophic failure of the trailer's brakes, they'll have the reserves needed to bring both vehicles to a stop.

The later model mini-vans have even more payload capacity. The 2013 Toyota Sienna has a payload of over 1700lbs depending on the trim level. This is higher than most full size SUVs and on par with many 1/2 ton trucks.

To the OP - make sure you add up all your payload needs and compare against the F250 specs. My math shows that the payload of the F250 with the diesel engine still needs some restraint over what can get thrown in the bed while towing the larger Airstreams. The diesel engine is heavy and eats into the payload capacity of the truck.

[Road Ruler]

I walked by a new Dodge Grand Caravan the other day. The disc brake rotors on the front and rear were huge.

[switz]

The catch is that when the trailer brake controller fails or the trailer brakes do not operate properly, what is the minivan driver going to do with six or seven thousand pounds pushing the small vehicle? There is sadly an obvious answer that will not be too pretty.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by Ridgerunner3

The very large brakes of the 250/2500 trucks are also a very strong positive for that size truck vs lighter trucks, suv's & minivans.

The truth is there are light trucks, SUV's, and minivans that can stop more quickly than the heavy duty truck, with or without the trailer. They also handle much better in emergency maneuvers. Diesel and gas engines are increasingly available with power and transmission combinations to handle any Airstream with ease. The long wheelbase edge is negated with a Hensley style hitch.

The only advantage of the heavy duty truck is extra payload, if you need it.

doug k

[Big C]

Originally Posted by dkottum

The truth is there are light trucks, SUV's, and minivans that can stop more quickly than the heavy duty truck, with or without the trailer. They also handle much better in emergency maneuvers. Diesel and gas engines are increasingly available with power and transmission combinations to handle any Airstream with ease. The long wheelbase edge is negated with a Hensley style hitch.

The only advantage of the heavy duty truck is extra payload, if you need it.

doug k

Respectfully disagree here. Since most 1/2 and all 3/4 ton trucks are built to tow they have built in capability for emergency maneuvers. Been there/done that numerous times. That is what they are for, why they are manufactured and purchased for.
The advantage of having 1/2 or 3/4 ton truck is as you said, extra payload, as well as when climbing those mountain passes, long drawn out hills, the other side of the mountain these are built to do this fully loaded while towing. Cannot tell you the amount of times that I have passed someone experiencing a white knuckle ride up a mountain while towing.
Our old F350 7.2 does not compare to the new 6.7 Liter diesels. Tow package on these are completely built in all the way. Electronically, suspension, everything. Nothing I looked at compares.

[MrUKToad]

The brake issue is one that is repeated often when comparing trucks to lighter tow vehicles.

Given working trailer brakes, though, the relative stopping performance when towing should remain the same as when not towing, no?

If the trailer brakes fail for some reason then the lighter tow vehicle will have to work harder than the truck to bring the momentum of the trailer down to zero but the total weight to be stopped will be lower so will require less braking effort anyway.

If it's about the relative weights of the trailer to the tow vehicle, how do the drivers of Semi-trucks cope when their trailer brakes fail and they need to halt a trailer that weighs more than three times the weight of the tractor?

I think drivers of lighter tow vehicles need to be aware of how to stop should their trailer brakes fail, but for the the times when they don't, they are at no more of a disadvantage than any other tow vehicle.

In short, I think the brake argument doesn't really hold water.

[andreasduess]

Originally Posted by switz

The catch is that when the trailer brake controller fails or the trailer brakes do not operate properly, what is the minivan driver going to do with six or seven thousand pounds pushing the small vehicle? There is sadly an obvious answer that will not be too pretty.

Modern mini-vans have a gross weight of around 6000lbs, higher for some trim models. Add to that a payload of 1600lbs, again higher for some trims, and the weight of a minivan is pretty much equal to the trailer it is towing. The "small vehicle" argument is a myth - that's the equivalent of many a 1/2 ton truck.

Add to this a wider wheel stance, a far lower centre of gravity, capable, powerful engines, extremely stiff bodies, independent suspension and powerful brakes and you end up with extremely capable tow vehicles.

The "what happens if the brakes fail" is a common argument. I'd argue that an emergency lane change or avoidance manoeuvre is the far more common scenario, a scenario I'd hate to have to perform in a truck that's far more likely to roll over than a passenger car.

Additionally, while on the surface it might appear that bigger brakes on the TV are better should the trailer brakes fail, if the trailer becomes dead weight you will have to apply the brakes very carefully indeed, regardless of their size.

You hit the brakes too hard, any brakes on any vehicle, and the're a real risk that the now unbraked trailer will come around and overtake the TV - especially with a standard hitch. In that scenario any assumed benefits of the larger truck brakes become worse than useless, indeed they create additional danger.

[PharmGeek]

What does abs braking scenario in a minivan trailoring scenario look like?

I am a pharmacist not an expert on such subjects - but I find this topic interesting.

My 1997 Toyota t100 pulls my 1500lb boat/trailer "ok" - but pulling near its cap at around 4k it "struggles" - I mean it does it but more downshifting to be sure and very little ability to accelerate much. If I extrapolate that experience to the minivan loaded down - is it safe to say that it would struggle perhaps worse?

"mavericks" are most of the time wrong in history - but sometimes they are not - I'd be curious to know more about such a topic.

[m.hony]

Your Odyssey could be equipped to tow a 30'...

[andreasduess]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

What does abs braking scenario in a minivan trailoring scenario look like?

It doesn't make much of a difference. If you've got an unbraked trailer behind you, you'd better be careful. I grew up on a farm, some of our older horse trailers were unbraked. Those things were a bitch and a half to tow, especially when empty - and thus bouncy.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

What does abs braking scenario in a minivan trailoring scenario look like?

Under normal driving conditions, with working trailer brakes, I've never had the ABS kick in, so I don't know. ABS detects skids and you'd need to be in a position where your TV wheels have stopped turning under braking to find out. I'd guess that the presence of a trailer would make no difference, especially with its brakes functional. If you have no brakes on the trailer then I think you'd not be too concerned about any ill effects of ABS, just so long as you can come to a safe stop.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

If I extrapolate that experience to the minivan loaded down - is it safe to say that it would struggle perhaps worse?

"mavericks" are most of the time wrong in history - but sometimes they are not - I'd be curious to know more about such a topic.

I tow with a 2011 Toyota Sienna. That's not most people's choice for a tow vehicle but as others have said, it makes a surprisingly good tow vehicle. To make it work, though, it has to have a beefed up hitch, one with increased rigidity and the ability to transfer weight with a WD system effectively to all the available axles. Once set up and towing, the Sienna certainly knows that there's a 7,000 lb trailer behind it and acceleration is not stellar, but at cruising speed it runs smoothly and will return an average of 12 mpg at 62 mph (100 Km/h). Downshifting the six speed transmission while in cruise control mode is annoying at 62 mph and I can get better results with the CC off, allowing the speed to vary between the high fifties and the low sixties depending on gradient, wind, etc. Perhaps most importantly, she stops cleanly and safely with no drama at all.

I read a piece in a recent Airstream Life where Andy Thompson explained that power, in terms of Horse Power available, is not a major issue when towing. My Sienna develops a maximum of 263 HP, which is not too shabby by any standards, but my Scangauge reports that I'm only ever using between 60 and 90 HP when towing (20 and 50 when not towing). The most I've seen posted on the Scangauge is 125 HP when under tow and under heavy acceleration.

So, in answer to your question, no the minivan doesn't struggle.

[kscherzi]

I towed a 3,000 lb popup with a 1989 Chrysler minivan for years. It had the factory tow package but still went through three transmission's. It always struggled on hills, had to stay under 45 in second gear. Dropping into into Death Valley, coming down the Panimints, ended up warping the rotors on that very long steep downgrade even with trailer brakes. Always knew there was a big load behind the van. Once, driving over the Rockies on a freeway nearish to Leadville it could only maintain 15 mph in first gear to make the pass. I couldn't imagine trying to pull 7,000 lbs with a such a rig, even if newer models have somewhat more horsepower. After the third transmission sold it and got a Expedition. Like night and day. Loaded with the family and trailer it was always the boss.

[PharmGeek]

Even if I were to believe that the minivan could be safe from a braking standpoint, and handle the weight....Im quite skeptical that it would have what I will call "acceptable torque" for the job....how would a trip with a 9-10k lb load to my family in SW VA in the mountains look like with such a rig? I suppose it could get there, but boy, I gotta believe it would really really struggle to go where I want it to go at times.

[andreasduess]

The late 80's Chrysler Caravan was notoriously underpowered - like most comparable vehicles at the time. Especially the 4 cylinder option that was finally phased out in 1990 was not up to the task. That engine developed just 96hp, unless it was the optional Mitsubishi engine that came in at a trailblazing 104 hp.

It has very little in common with today's mini-vans. I don't think you could even begin to compare a 1989 Chrysler with a 2010-13 Honda (or Toyota or even a new T&C) and expect similar outcomes, especially with a properly setup hitch and a transmission cooler.

If your brakes suffered then the trailer's brakes were to blame. If properly set up, load on the TV's brakes should always be marginally less with a trailer in tow than without.