we need to select a new tow vehicle

[andreasduess]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

Even if I were to believe that the minivan could be safe from a braking standpoint, and handle the weight....Im quite skeptical that it would have what I will call "acceptable torque" for the job....how would a trip with a 9-10k lb load to my family in SW VA in the mountains look like with such a rig? I suppose it could get there, but boy, I gotta believe it would really really struggle to go where I want it to go at times.

If I would do a lot of serious mountain driving, with real inclines, I'd get myself a diesel - ideally a Jeep or, budget permitting, a MB 350 BlueTEC.

[PharmGeek]

Never researched jeep diesel - need to do that

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

My 1997 Toyota t100 pulls my 1500lb boat/trailer "ok" - but pulling near its cap at around 4k it "struggles" - I mean it does it but more downshifting to be sure and very little ability to accelerate much. If I extrapolate that experience to the minivan loaded down - is it safe to say that it would struggle perhaps worse?

You have fallen into the trap that most folks do regarding this subject. Many pickup like your Toy do not make good tow vehicles and were probably over rated as you found out.

The modern M-Van is problably in many cases very under rated so trying to compare the two just dosen't work.


Those of us who have experienced how good they are at towing know the facts.

Our 150HP Nissan van "had no drivetrain issues" for the 14 years we had it. Consider what it was towing and the 465,000 klm's it had on it.



All M-vans are not created equally. Do the research and pick a good one.

Note: As kscherzi reported, he picked the wrong van for a TV. His story is a common one.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

Even if I were to believe that the minivan could be safe from a braking standpoint, and handle the weight....Im quite skeptical that it would have what I will call "acceptable torque" for the job....how would a trip with a 9-10k lb load to my family in SW VA in the mountains look like with such a rig? I suppose it could get there, but boy, I gotta believe it would really really struggle to go where I want it to go at times.

I wouldn't want to push you towards rigging your Odyssey for towing, you sound like you want to haul stuff and any Minivan is relatively light on payload. What I and others are saying, in response to other comments, is that the Minivan makes a much better TV than you might suppose. Issues regarding overall weight, brakes, power, etc. are all assumptions, albeit understandable assumptions, made by people who've not tried a Minivan for towing. Real-world experience shows that, if a Minivan suits your daily driving then it can be pressed into towing if you set it up properly.

[m.hony]

If the Odyssey would/could make a good tow vehicle, you are 30k ahead by not buying a tow vehicle.

[PharmGeek]

my honda odyssey is rated at max toxing capacity at 3500 lbs? Is it ok to exceed this? If so, what is this rating based upon? If not 3500, is there some other max rating that sould be used? If so, what is that recommendation based upon?

As a medical geek (and this comparison may not be great), anecdotes are in many respects worthless.....blood letting is of course the prime example...people would swear by it.

Ideally, any recommendations should be based on solid research...systematic controlled research...peer reviewed and published. Of course I know next to nothing of mechanical engineering....but that thought crossed my mind...perhaps out of place in this arena...just that "it works for me" while useful information, is highly limiting in many areas of science...or really most...

Also, the payload of my minivan is 1350 lbs...add in kids car seats, kids, us, stuff, and the trailer and we have exceeded that....and even a 25 foot AS new is 800+ lbs tongue weight before the hitch....

I am new to this, so I do apologize if I have massacred this all....but how do these numbers work out? Is it acceptable to go above these max payload or max towing cap ratings? or perhaps there are minivans that have more payload capacity than mine...and more towing ability?

[Wingeezer]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

my honda odyssey is rated at max toxing capacity at 3500 lbs? Is it ok to exceed this? If so, what is this rating based upon? If not 3500, is there some other max rating that sould be used? If so, what is that recommendation based upon?

As a medical geek (and this comparison may not be great), anecdotes are in many respects worthless.....blood letting is of course the prime example...people would swear by it.

Ideally, any recommendations should be based on solid research...systematic controlled research...peer reviewed and published. Of course I know next to nothing of mechanical engineering....but that thought crossed my mind...perhaps out of place in this arena...just that "it works for me" while useful information, is highly limiting in many areas of science...or really most...

Also, the payload of my minivan is 1350 lbs...add in kids car seats, kids, us, stuff, and the trailer and we have exceeded that....and even a 25 foot AS new is 800+ lbs tongue weight before the hitch....

I am new to this, so I do apologize if I have massacred this all....but how do these numbers work out? Is it acceptable to go above these max payload or max towing cap ratings? or perhaps there are minivans that have more payload capacity than mine...and more towing ability?

Some of the things that you say are the very reasons that caused me to buy a 3/4 ton diesel for our towing.

I wouldn't think to criticize people that tow with vehicles rated to tow much less than they haul, as I am certainly no expert in the field. But because of my concern over possible legal and liability reasons , it just is not in my nature to do it!

This subject comes up time and time again, and I suppose it comes down to your comfort level.

I feel both physically ..... and mentally ...... very comfortable with our rig and that's the way I like it!

Each to their own, and good luck to all!


Brian. (Canadian, but with a truck! Also a retired Mech. Eng!)

[andreasduess]

It really all depends on the individual needs and, as Brian says above, what you feel comfortable with.

The tongue weight of our trailer is about 650lbs, before weight distribution. Without weight distribution, almost all of that weight would sit on the rear axle, making the TV all but impossible to drive.

But add a good weight distribution system and it will remove roughly two thirds of that weight from the tow vehicle's rear axle and distribute it to both the tow vehicle's front axle and the trailer's axles - this is where a triple axle trailer comes in handy, they each carry a percentage.

What I've done now is taken the weight away from my rear axles, where it would cause huge problems, and distributed it fairly evenly across all available fixe axles - one third to the front, one third to the back, one third to the trailer.

This leaves me approximately 1000lbs in payload for the TV. I weigh in at just under 180lbs (I'm a tall guy), my wife about 120lbs. The kids combined bring about 80lbs to the table, making for a total of 380lbs for passengers.

After gassing up, I've got roughly 500lbs left. That's a very acceptable margin.

Even with a fully loaded trailer, tongue weight should not exceed 800lbs. If we follow the rule of thirds, 260lbs of that will be transferred to the trailer's axles, leaving 520lbs for the vehicle to carry. This after gas, gives me approx 320lbs in margin.

Modern vans are eight passenger vehicles. They are designed to carry a lot of weight. Distributing it properly across all axles is key to a good towing experience.

If you need to carry a lot of stuff up steep inclines, then a different vehicle might be a better choice for you.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

my honda odyssey is rated at max toxing capacity at 3500 lbs? Is it ok to exceed this? If so, what is this rating based upon? If not 3500, is there some other max rating that sould be used? If so, what is that recommendation based upon?

As a medical geek (and this comparison may not be great), anecdotes are in many respects worthless.....blood letting is of course the prime example...people would swear by it.

Ideally, any recommendations should be based on solid research...systematic controlled research...peer reviewed and published. Of course I know next to nothing of mechanical engineering....but that thought crossed my mind...perhaps out of place in this arena...just that "it works for me" while useful information, is highly limiting in many areas of science...or really most...

Also, the payload of my minivan is 1350 lbs...add in kids car seats, kids, us, stuff, and the trailer and we have exceeded that....and even a 25 foot AS new is 800+ lbs tongue weight before the hitch....

I am new to this, so I do apologize if I have massacred this all....but how do these numbers work out? Is it acceptable to go above these max payload or max towing cap ratings? or perhaps there are minivans that have more payload capacity than mine...and more towing ability?

My Sienna and Airstream are not anecdotes! We're real and on the road, for goodness sake!

Briefly, a minivan's tow rating of 3,500 lbs bears no relation to it's ability to tow an Airstream. Go ask Honda how they arrived at their rating, I can guarantee that they have no technical data on how it was derived or tested and that's because it's more a marketing tool than an actual, measurable limit.

Can you exceed it? Well yes, of course you can, but whether you want to or not is entirely up to you. It's not illegal, that's for sure, but you need the confidence of a properly set up TV and trailer combination to do so.

Later model Toyota, Honda and Chrysler minivans do have better characteristics for towing; better power, transmissions, brakes, wheelbase, payload, etc., but earlier models were more than capable of towing beyond the curiously common 3,500 lb tow limit.

The key thing here, though, and others have mentioned it, is that you have to go with what you're comfortable with. You sound like you want to haul a lot of stuff around so I'd be the last person to recommend saddling up your Odyssey!

[PharmGeek]

So that max tow rating is entirely arbitrary? I had no idea!

Also - just to be pedantic - technically your story most certainly is an anecdote - by definition.

[andreasduess]

To give you an example of arbitrary tow ratings, the Oddy has a tow rating of 3500lbs.
The Honda Pilot, which looks bigger and tougher, has a tow rating of 4500lbs.

The Honda Oddy and the Pilot share the same engine, the same transmission, the same brakes and numerous other parts. Yet there's a miraculous difference of 1000lbs in tow capability.

There are many reasons why we didn't buy a truck or large body on frame SUV. Here are the top two:

1. In my opinion, they make terrible daily drivers and are far less safe - to the driver and to others - in an accident. They are prone to rollover incidents, they are terrible at emergency handling and I believe that my family, and other people's families, would be at far higher risk of injury in a truck than in a car or van. You're interested in data, check the accident stats.

2. The environment. Yes, there's a bit of a treehugger in me. Why drive a gas hog when a smaller vehicle does the job just as well? Also, we live in the downtown of one of North America's largest cities, so parking does come at a premium.

Like Steve, I believe the published tow rating to be completely arbitrary. Talk to dealers and you'll find that they have zero idea of how it was calculated. Nobody has yet been able to give me a satisfactory answer.

Numbers I personally would never feel comfortable exceeding are the total payload and the axle weight. Those are easily calculated and tested. There's nothing anecdotal about the numbers I posted above either.

From your posts, it looks that you'd just like a big TV. If it makes you feel good and safe and you can afford it, just get one. Enjoy it, go camping.

[andreasduess]

PS: Just to make sure, all of the above is just my personal opinion - I would never presume that anybody else should share it, or base their own decision on it. Nor do I believe that one's choice of TV is a reflection of one's worth as a human being.

You could decide to drive the biggest, baddest monster of a truck and I'd still like to have a beer should we meet at a campground somewhere.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by PharmGeek

So that max tow rating is entirely arbitrary? I had no idea!

Also - just to be pedantic - technically your story most certainly is an anecdote - by definition.

Ha ha! Pedantry is good. I meant that my "story" is not apocryphal in that the Sienna is real and really does tow that big Airstream. I speak from real-world experience rather than using assumptions, suppositions and hearsay.

Tow ratings are tricky things and I don't blame the manufacturers for being less than transparent about them. If you're trying to sell a high margin truck and your competitor claims a tow rating of x, then your marketing folks will say advertise ours at x+100. They may consult the engineers, they may even attempt a test, but it's more to do with selling than actual towing ability. If you think about it, to express a tow rating in a simple measure of weight is nonsense; there are so many other factors that make a good tow and the manufacturer's couldn't and wouldn't attempt to test them all.

If you're selling a low margin minivan then the marketing boys and girls will just go low with a rating; they'd rather you bought a minivan AND a truck. The point about testing, or not testing, is even more pertinent to cars and minivans.

Like I've said to others, if you're concerned about what kind of TV you want (not need, that's another ball game altogether), you can consult a professional as well as gather opinions from the Forum.

[cwf]

There is a commercial showing a Touoda towing a space shuttle. What about numbers? Just kiddin!!!!!!

I have towed far above "rated" a few times with boat and horse trailers. It is an interesting experience to be "beyond the envelope". Yes, it can be done "but" if you ever "get a tiger by the tail" it will forever be in your psyche

Once I towed a double horse trailer with my Chevelle, 6cyl, 3 speed manual, no AC. There was an emergency stop which bent the car hitch nearly to the ground. I ha to drive 45 miles in that tongue low position to find a welding shop that would repair. I have learned the lesson and healed from the lumps.

Morals of the story..."lose the lumps, not the lesson"....drive with the best equipment you can find and afford. Buying "more" TV than "marginal" will serve you well when you need it, but it is possible to "overdo" it, you can drive a tack with a sledge hammer but not a spike with a tack hammer.

The most precious cargo is in my TV, as long as they are unharmed I can get another AS or SOB.

[jdalrymple]

I do not dispute the rated ability of a eight passenger mini-van to carry 1400 pounds. That rating is the simple math of the accepted average weight of an adult divided by the eight seats the manufacturer managed to bolt to floor of the van.

I do not want whatever I choose to carry floating around inside the passenger compartment with me or inside my Airstream. Generators and their fuel at the top of that list.

No matter how close the hitch ball is to the rear axle, or if the TV wheels are on the far ends of the chassis.

I have done the research and am fully aware of the engineering theories involved in my choice.

I don't intend judge the choices of others, but simply offer my opinion and experience to those who asked for the same.

Regards,

JD

[PharmGeek]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

Ha ha! Pedantry is good. I meant that my "story" is not apocryphal in that the Sienna is real and really does tow that big Airstream. I speak from real-world experience rather than using assumptions, suppositions and hearsay.

not that it at all matters to the subject really, but I think you may? be misunderstanding what an anecdote is.

An anecdote does not mean that the experience described is invalid or that the person describing their experience is lying, disingenuous, etc...it can include a reported experience or event that truly happened.

In the scientific sense, an anecdote is simply an uncontrolled observation pretty much. This includes personal experience and unpublished observations.

But your real world experience is certainly useful I believe in this arena - in this forum - and I think it holds water - is worth considering - but - as such, any uncontrolled observations have their limitations.

What would be ideal is to research these questions....you could create stats for these ratings that would give a sense of the stats...in medicine we use stats like "NNH" or "number needed to harm"...imagine such stats used to determine how various TV's held up...of course this is I am guessing entirely impractical, but thinking about it in this way serves as an interesting thought experiment to ponder what such research would do to current conventions in thinking on such a subject...would be fascinating..

[mgriffrus]

Isn't everything on the forums pretty much anecdotal anyway? It's a group of people sharing their personal experiences and advice, and since we're sharing...

I bought my 3/4 Ram Megacab with the intent of finding a fifth wheel something to jerk around the country with a wife, two teenage kids, and a dog. However, we bought out first airstream instead. It happens to be the only one right now, but I'm always looking for another.

Is it overkill? Probably. Can I load a ladder, ice chests, folding chairs, spare tires, a smoker and tools in the bed of the truck and not worry about it overloading? Absolutely. Do I get good mileage pulling the trailer? I'd like to think so, I'm tickled with getting 13-15 mpg cruising along (between 55 on highways and 65 on interstates) without a care in the world. Is it a pain to park and drive, especially in old cities like New Orleans or St Augustine? You bet your butt it is.

On the other hand, I was fascinated by the couple towing a 1992 23 footer with a diesel Jetta from Florida back to Canada and obviously having no problems at all.

There are pros and cons on this subject, and I've seen some pretty healthy debates. It all boils down to what you're comfortable with and how many other toys you plan on bringing with you.

[m.hony]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

To give you an example of arbitrary tow ratings, the Oddy has a tow rating of 3500lbs.
The Honda Pilot, which looks bigger and tougher, has a tow rating of 4500lbs.

The Honda Oddy and the Pilot share the same engine, the same transmission, the same brakes and numerous other parts. Yet there's a miraculous difference of 1000lbs in tow capability.

There are many reasons why we didn't buy a truck or large body on frame SUV. Here are the top two:

1. In my opinion, they make terrible daily drivers and are far less safe - to the driver and to others - in an accident. They are prone to rollover incidents, they are terrible at emergency handling and I believe that my family, and other people's families, would be at far higher risk of injury in a truck than in a car or van. You're interested in data, check the accident stats.

2. The environment. Yes, there's a bit of a treehugger in me. Why drive a gas hog when a smaller vehicle does the job just as well? Also, we live in the downtown of one of North America's largest cities, so parking does come at a premium.

Like Steve, I believe the published tow rating to be completely arbitrary. Talk to dealers and you'll find that they have zero idea of how it was calculated. Nobody has yet been able to give me a satisfactory answer.

Numbers I personally would never feel comfortable exceeding are the total payload and the axle weight. Those are easily calculated and tested. There's nothing anecdotal about the numbers I posted above either.

From your posts, it looks that you'd just like a big TV. If it makes you feel good and safe and you can afford it, just get one. Enjoy it, go camping.

In 29 years of driving I have owned 5 pickup trucks and an SUV. I don't think they are bad daily drivers or that my family is unsafe. Maybe it is "southern culture". Pickups and SUVs way outnumber cars here and are used as daily drivers by everyone from teens to moms.

[ROBERT CROSS]

.....on a thread he started.

Skeered another one away?

Good job gang.

Bob

[m.hony]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

To give you an example of arbitrary tow ratings, the Oddy has a tow rating of 3500lbs.
The Honda Pilot, which looks bigger and tougher, has a tow rating of 4500lbs.

The Honda Oddy and the Pilot share the same engine, the same transmission, the same brakes and numerous other parts. Yet there's a miraculous difference of 1000lbs in tow capability.

There are many reasons why we didn't buy a truck or large body on frame SUV. Here are the top two:

1. In my opinion, they make terrible daily drivers and are far less safe - to the driver and to others - in an accident. They are prone to rollover incidents, they are terrible at emergency handling and I believe that my family, and other people's families, would be at far higher risk of injury in a truck than in a car or van. You're interested in data, check the accident stats.

2. The environment. Yes, there's a bit of a treehugger in me. Why drive a gas hog when a smaller vehicle does the job just as well? Also, we live in the downtown of one of North America's largest cities, so parking does come at a premium.

Like Steve, I believe the published tow rating to be completely arbitrary. Talk to dealers and you'll find that they have zero idea of how it was calculated. Nobody has yet been able to give me a satisfactory answer.

Numbers I personally would never feel comfortable exceeding are the total payload and the axle weight. Those are easily calculated and tested. There's nothing anecdotal about the numbers I posted above either.

From your posts, it looks that you'd just like a big TV. If it makes you feel good and safe and you can afford it, just get one. Enjoy it, go camping.

The difference in tow ratings from one vehicle to the next is simply in springs/axles/transmission/rear end gears. That is the only difference in 1/2, 3/4, and 1 ton pickups/vans/SUVs. The Pilot must have a heavier suspension or less weight at the back than the Odyssey because it is an open vehicle.