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Old 01-02-2008, 12:24 PM   #41
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CONGRATS! I have had great luck with our 2008 f150, leaving next week for the second round of Michigan to california. We stay at the huntingon beach resort while i work the l.a markets. expnsive but a nice walk across the street!!

Each his own, we believe for our 28 foot safari the f150 is very competent. In less than 6 months we will tow over 15k miles, so it comes with experience. I love gas and let her rev, they love it. I always look at the face of the big fiver as i go by him at 65 on the passes. He does not know it has been running 3800 plus rpm for over 30 minutes and no fade and pulling strong. At cruise on the open road usually running 2400 and not in overdrive @65mph and averaging 11.7 on the last 7900 mile run. I would think our overall rig is less weight but then again you have hemi. good luck.
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Old 01-02-2008, 01:08 PM   #42
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Towing the Airstream we each have choosen requires a TV of adequate size and power. Towing also requires the use of fuel, plain and simple. There are realtively few choices out there. Technology has not yet provided a better solution, and I believe it will be several years before it does. New fuels (bio) maybe, but no new magic anti-matter engines. All should choose the rig combination they want and can pay for, and have fun. Being "green" doesn't have to mean 100 mpg, it can simply mean using the equipment available with good judgement.

Thanks to those responsible for the nice comments above!
Yes, one needs a TV with adequate size and power to get the job done.

TV's of this nature come in all different shapes and sizes! Of course vehicles use fuel. Some will obtain poor fuel mileage others get very good mileage . There are actually a variety of choices that technology has provided for us and they have been available for a number of years now.

Garfield... Although I found TIMEMACHINE"S post of interest I too was looking for something different. Wondering what model of Lexus he owned. Now that would be a vehicle to go on vacation with!
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Old 01-02-2008, 01:30 PM   #43
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Another good gasser

Quote:
Originally Posted by safari 28
CONGRATS! I have had great luck with our 2008 f150, leaving next week for the second round of Michigan to california. We stay at the huntingon beach resort while i work the l.a markets. expnsive but a nice walk across the street!!

Each his own, we believe for our 28 foot safari the f150 is very competent. In less than 6 months we will tow over 15k miles, so it comes with experience. I love gas and let her rev, they love it. I always look at the face of the big fiver as i go by him at 65 on the passes. He does not know it has been running 3800 plus rpm for over 30 minutes and no fade and pulling strong. At cruise on the open road usually running 2400 and not in overdrive @65mph and averaging 11.7 on the last 7900 mile run. I would think our overall rig is less weight but then again you have hemi. good luck.
Safari28,

Thanks for your input, this thread is all about individual preferences and experiences. I think our loaded GCVW are close, we are approximately 14,000 lbs (7000 lbs for the AS and 7000 lbs for the TV) , well below the rated GCVW of 17,000 lbs, and it looks as though our mpg is similar while towing.

The F150 Ford is a great truck, it has set a standard for interior comfort and durabilty. The new 1/2 tons are without doubt setting new thresholds of performance, a good choice for many who have trailers that I call "inbetweeners", not quite heavy enough to need a diesel 3/4 ton but to heavy for a 1/2 ton SUV (the short wheel base and light payload capacity being the issue). Once the safety factors are determined, the decision usually boils down to your use and needs.
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Old 01-02-2008, 04:55 PM   #44
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It was a GX470

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Ruler
.

Garfield... Although I found TIMEMACHINE"S post of interest I too was looking for something different. Wondering what model of Lexus he owned. Now that would be a vehicle to go on vacation with!
We had a Lexus GX470 that would be a great TV for a narrow body AS, say 23' or under. It had the power (32 valve V8) and a very sophisticated independent suspension with a conventional frame, and luxury big time. Problem is that the payload was too close to the max and the wheel base at 110" was just to short for a 25' wide body. Believe me I tried to make it work...nope, nada, no way, certainly ok for a short trip, but no mountains or bad weather for sure.

Again, just my opinion based on our experience.
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Old 01-02-2008, 06:29 PM   #45
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53,000 miles and no problems with my Duramax. Sorry to hear of your problems with the Ford.

I figure $4.25 per gallon diesel is breakeven with $3.10 gasoline in a 2500HD with a 6.0 L gas V8.

The new Duramax/Allison combo is around $8300 list. Tough to justify that cost when the test results in Diesel Power magazine show about the same mileage with fuel that costs 30-50 cents a gallon more on top of the diesel package price.
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Old 01-02-2008, 06:58 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by TIMEMACHINE
We had a Lexus GX470 that would be a great TV for a narrow body AS, say 23' or under. It had the power (32 valve V8) and a very sophisticated independent suspension with a conventional frame, and luxury big time. Problem is that the payload was too close to the max and the wheel base at 110" was just to short for a 25' wide body. Believe me I tried to make it work...nope, nada, no way, certainly ok for a short trip, but no mountains or bad weather for sure.

Again, just my opinion based on our experience.
Thnxs TM for the info as I am interested. What exactly were the issues when you tried to tow with the GX470? I am aware of a couple folks who tow 25'+ Airstreams with similar vehicles, a BMW X5 and a Mercedes ML350 and they just luv the way they handle and tow. thnxs!
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:28 PM   #47
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Off topic, but mentioned.

[quote=Phil and/or Sue].

Didn't Ford get a lot of publicity for the Pinto gas tanks where their bean counters figured it was cheaper to pay lawsuits from customers killed and maimed than to recall and fix the problem?


Hi, just for the record, Ford did recall several years of Pinto's for the gas tank concern and I personally performed hundreds of the recalls when I was working at a local Ford dealer. And as I stated on a earlier post, Pinto was not the only car that had that problem and not the worst one either. Ralph Nader said himself that an AMC car [Hornet] was much worse that the Pinto, but there were so many more Pintos on the road, that is why they focused more on Ford. [AMC had 4% of the market at that time]
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:38 PM   #48
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John,

Very, very interesting. I've been contemplating a move to diesel but have been having trouble accepting the extra noise, weight, cost, and economy or lack of economy. I hadn't thought too much about the suspension differences but had been looking for better brake performance than our Dodge Durango SUV, which has been less than I would have liked. In particular, the rear disks warp much too easily no matter how I set the Prodigy.

Despite all the arrows sent my way for having the audacity or stupidity to tow a 25 FB Safari like yours with a Durango, the proof of 20,000+ miles speaks for itself. I have kept good records of mileage with the Hemi that now has over 65,000 miles on it. Towing we get 13.4 mpg (usually between 55 and 65 mph); around town we get about 17 mpg; on the highway at a steady 65 with cruise control we regularly get 22-23 mpg. All that is with the lowest octane regular gasoline. I should add that our rear axle ratio is higher than yours--3.73 I think.

Since most of our driving is in the West, the road grades seldom present any challenge to the Hemi. Last summer back East, however, the steep grades even over small bumps of 1,000 feet in elevation in upstate NY, western MA and MD caused us to slow down quite a bit going uphill and to exert too much braking downhill.

The upshot is that as good as diesels might be for high-torque, easy going up hills, there really isn't enough of that in our travels to offset all the other drawbacks noted above and more thoroughly in your original post here.

So, I'm back to gas and the Dodge 2500s in particular, hoping that by going from SUV to truck we will get better brakes and more space to carry boats, bikes and a few other items for more extensive trips away from the summer heat of AZ.

While the Power Wagon looks intriguing, I think that a less hefty version might suit us better. I might even go for a 2-wheel drive model rather than the 4x4 like our Durango. That would save quite a bit of weight and maintenance and would add to the towing capacity. The 500 pounds saved would make a beneficial difference in gas mileage too. Configured this way, the tow rating is 9,000 with a fuel-efficient rear end. Payload capacity would be higher than the Power Wagon, I believe. With a reasonable set of options for safety and convenience, the list price should be between $32 and $35k.

Cheers--See you in San Clemente.
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Old 01-02-2008, 10:46 PM   #49
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more just opinion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Ruler
Thnxs TM for the info as I am interested. What exactly were the issues when you tried to tow with the GX470? I am aware of a couple folks who tow 25'+ Airstreams with similar vehicles, a BMW X5 and a Mercedes ML350 and they just luv the way they handle and tow. thnxs!
Road Ruler,

The GX470 has a fairly short wheelbase, a 1329 lb payload capacity and a 6500 lb tow rating. All of these numbers tell the reason the GX 470 is inadequate for a loaded 7000 lb, 25' AS with a tonque weight in the 900 lb range. The 80% guideline (not a rule, just a safety margin) would suggest a 5200 lb AS as a good match for the Lexus, but even then, the wheelbase is still short. I can confirm through personal towing experience that the GX470 is not a good match to tow a Safari 25 FB/SE at 7000 lbs. I know the difference between a good match and one that is not, I have logged quite a few miles pulling boats and travel trailers with small block gassers, big block gassers and diesels in everything from Volkwagon Buses to Crew Cab Duallies.

You mentioned folks with X5s and ML350s, the X5 is rated even lower than the GX470, the X5 is rated to tow 6000 lbs with a payload max of 1345 lbs and the ML350 is not much better at 7200 lbs towing with a 1635 lb payload max. The wheelbases are 115.5" for the X5 and 121.6" for the ML350. These SUVs would be marginal for 25+ late model widebody Airstream, but they may be adequate for older, lighter 25+ Airstreams and certainly a possible choice for AS 5000 lbs and under.

These are the numbers, but each person has to weigh (pun intended) the other details associated with, it is more than safe towing, it is more than numbers.

Hopefully this information helps a few folks out there.
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Old 01-03-2008, 01:07 AM   #50
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Towing with gas.

We've been towing our 06, 25' Safari FB SE, with a 05 Ford F150. We've been up and down the California Coast and then some. We just got back from Yosemite. We climbed the Grapevine (I-5), with out a problem. We can do a steady 60 mph, easily. Have yet to feel like we were needing a bigger or more powerful truck. I do lust after the F250's. However I don't think that I can really say that i need one yet. I've always had a difficult time, differentiating between want and need when it comes to spending money. I do love the comfortable ride of the F150, with and without the A/S behind us.

Just thought I'd share!

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Old 01-03-2008, 01:41 AM   #51
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The real Hemi

This is the alternate fuel version...Ethyl or Nitro.
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Old 01-03-2008, 05:02 AM   #52
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Lexus 470 vs ML and X5

I thought I might clear up a little bit here. The Lexus is a very different tow vehicle than the ML or the X5. The Lexus is built on a Tundra Chassis does not have independent rear suspension and it has relatively long rear overhang. As well it has a tall centre of gravity and mushy balloon tires. The BMW and Mercedes ML both have longer wheel bases short rear overhangs, independent rear suspension, a much lower centre of gravity and precise tire and wheel combinations with very little sidewall roll. Though the tow ratings are similar there is no comparison in handling and stability while towing.

I think the ML Diesel is one of the best all round tow vehicles you can purchase today for most Airstreams if I was inclined to tow with an SUV it is hands down the one I would purchase at the moment anyway. The Mercedes diesel is a considerably more modern engine with amazing performance and fuel economy without all the noise. We do strengthen the hitch receivers on them when we set them up but we do that on most vehicles.

Having said all that we do have several customers with Toyota Sequoia's and Lexus 470's, however to make them stable we change the tires to a better size for towing and use a Hensley hitch.
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Old 01-03-2008, 05:26 AM   #53
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... gearing and power or torque bands are the ingredients of mileage, mixed with tire size and the weight of your AS, it is a mathmatical science.
The tires and rear end gearing are significant factors in gas mileage. Many Excursion owners bemoan 8-10 mpg max with the V10 and the 4.11 rear end. I got 10mpg towing and 14 mpg highway out of my V10 with the 3.73 rear end. Sometimes with the big motors, the low rear end gearing really isn't necessary and can actually be a drawback. My 3.73 rear end truck had exactly the same 10,000 lb tow capacity as a truck with the 4.11s.

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Old 01-03-2008, 05:28 AM   #54
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This is the alternate fuel version...Ethyl or Nitro.
AAAACCCKKKK!!!! What in the world is that round thing with all those snaky red wires coming out of the front of the engine?

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Old 01-03-2008, 05:38 AM   #55
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Here is a picture of two of our customers rigs they are brothers and they just sent me this picture I did not realize they had taken a trip together. They are both very busy people but I will try and find out how the two vehicles compared. They both have Hensley's Reinforced receivers and Jordan Brake Controls.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:22 AM   #56
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I love my 'ol 95 2500 5.9 (360) 3:55 rear - Dodge gasser!!! I get 10.6 mpg towing my Squaregosy and around 15 to 17 with out the trailer. I just set the cruise at 65 w/od locked out and roll on down the big road! It's funny to see the looks on the 5er's face's with their diesels as I pass them on hills and they see the v-8 mag badges on my doors. Course it helps a little that my Argosy only weights about 6000 lbs empty - shhhish,don't tell the 5er's!!!
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:42 AM   #57
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This is a very interesting thread, and although I don't intend to hijack the theme, its spurred me to type a few thoughts...

We towed a 30 foot SOB ultralight with the 5.3L shorty Yukon (less real towing capacity than a 1/2 ton) for three years no problems at all. Admittedly, we never towed through the Rockies or hills in Virginia, and we don't haul any powertoys, but we did enough hills to know that our rig did well enough for us. One of the reasons we recently downsized to a Safari 25SS was so we could eventually also downsize our Yukon to something less than a V8. The mileage while towing isn't the issue, its the gas mileage when NOT towing (which is like 80% of the time for us) that I'm interested in improving.

Anyway, I'm intrigued by the fact many on this forum seem to be wedded to the idea that the ideal tow vehicle for ~25' Airstreams is more-or-less a 3/4 tonner of some sort. Maybe being Canadian and used to much higher fuel prices and cost of living as compared you lucky Americans, I've developed a "less is more" philosophy. Or maybe its the influence of a local well known RV dealer that specalizes in small TV setups. I don't know, but I must say I'm intrigued by the thinking. Heck, and I though the ORF was conservative LOL!

One thing that has not gone unnoticed is that many of the smaller vehicles being discussed here are all high peformance, high HP vehicles and not necessarly less expensive to buy than a 3/4 ton PU truck, so maybe there's no magic solution. I expect many are anxiously waiting to see what new developments arrive in small displacement diesels or hybrid TV's but something tells me they won't be cheap.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what the future brings and if my thinking will change as I gain more towing experience.

Sorry for rambling..

Gary
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:19 AM   #58
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Great input

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew T
I thought I might clear up a little bit here. The Lexus is a very different tow vehicle than the ML or the X5. The Lexus is built on a Tundra Chassis does not have independent rear suspension and it has relatively long rear overhang. As well it has a tall centre of gravity and mushy balloon tires. The BMW and Mercedes ML both have longer wheel bases short rear overhangs, independent rear suspension, a much lower centre of gravity and precise tire and wheel combinations with very little sidewall roll. Though the tow ratings are similar there is no comparison in handling and stability while towing.

I think the ML Diesel is one of the best all round tow vehicles you can purchase today for most Airstreams if I was inclined to tow with an SUV it is hands down the one I would purchase at the moment anyway. The Mercedes diesel is a considerably more modern engine with amazing performance and fuel economy without all the noise. We do strengthen the hitch receivers on them when we set them up but we do that on most vehicles.

Having said all that we do have several customers with Toyota Sequoia's and Lexus 470's, however to make them stable we change the tires to a better size for towing and use a Hensley hitch.
Andrew.

I believe you are making the same point that is the reason for the thread. Each situation and each Airstreamer is different, and there are no set rules. I do have a few corrections to make on your post, first, the GX470 is not built on a Tundra chassis, it is built on the same chassis as the Toyota 4-Runner, and second, the sophisticated independent suspension I was referring to is the front suspension with the Kinetic Dynamic System. And actually, most folks would say that a solid rear axle is superior to an independent for towing and strength, so I would disagree that an independent rear suspension would improve towing values, but each vehicle should be judged on its combined attributes, not just one.

The diesel ML was not discussed in my post because I was responding to previous reference to the ML350, and unfortunetly, many of us can't get a diesel ML due to emission standards in our state. The ML350 is clearly the best choice of the three for towing. I agree completely that the diesel ML is a winner.

As for the BMW X5, based on the listed ratings by the manufacturer, it may tow better than a GX470, but if you towed a late model 25' AS, you would be over rating limit and not legal, not a good idea in my book.

Bottom line, you have shown how diligent research and past experiences of others are key ingredients to determining ones own optimal towing set up.
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Old 01-03-2008, 03:03 PM   #59
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Andrew and TM... thnxs for the info.
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Old 01-03-2008, 04:49 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garfield
This is a very interesting thread, and although I don't intend to hijack the theme, its spurred me to type a few thoughts...

Anyway, I'm intrigued by the fact many on this forum seem to be wedded to the idea that the ideal tow vehicle for ~25' Airstreams is more-or-less a 3/4 tonner of some sort.

One thing that has not gone unnoticed is that many of the smaller vehicles being discussed here are all high peformance, high HP vehicles and not necessarly less expensive to buy than a 3/4 ton PU truck, so maybe there's no magic solution.

I expect many are anxiously waiting to see what new developments arrive in small displacement diesels or hybrid TV's but something tells me they won't be cheap.

Anyway it will be interesting to see what the future brings and if my thinking will change as I gain more towing experience.

Gary
Gary,

Thanks for another set of interesting thoughts and observations. Although it may seem that some of the forum member (US members mostly) favor a 3/4 ton for towing a 25' Airstreams, it is important to remember that 25' Airstreams have been made a long time with many different configurations including width, length (yes a 2008 Safari 25FB is actually 25' 11") and most important WEIGHT. Instead of just using the trailer length as the mark, one should consider all of the details. I for one only use length as one factor, but if you review my posts and many more by others, the weight of the AS is the primary factor, but again, not the only factor in matching up with a safe and enjoyable tow vehicle. In that light, I do believe that 7000 lbs is the dividing line between 1/2 ton and 3/4 ton, but is only a guideline and it is just my opinion based on the way I drive/tow, where I drive/tow and when I drive/tow.

Most pros agree that stopping and controlling the trailer is far more important than pulling the trailer. I believe that is why you see the HP versions of the SUV for people who prefer that type of vehicle, they usually have more sophisticated control systems and bigger/better brakes. Very keen observation on your part.

And you are right about many waiting to see what the manufacturers bring out in the way of more efficient motors and drive systems, and I also agree that they won't be cheap.

I am really enjoying the dialogue on this thread, many great comments with XLNT input. We all learn by sharing.
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