Volvo XC 70 3.2 wagon

[RLS]

I just have one question about this statement

You can trust Andy Thomson and his operation

Does this mean that if (which I hope does not happen to anyone ) you are in an accident that totals your car and Airstream, this company will pay for both since the insurance company would no doubt say it was not liable due to the weight limits being grossly wrong? Or what about the liability when you go sliding across an intersection hitting someone due to the overweight? Again, will this company stand behind you and pay ALL the liabilities since no insurance company would? In fact, there really is no reason to get any insurance on this type of set-up, other than theft??

[withidl]

Originally Posted by RLS

I just have one question about this statement Does this mean that if (which I hope does not happen to anyone ) you are in an accident that totals your car and Airstream, this company will pay for both since the insurance company would no doubt say it was not liable due to the weight limits being grossly wrong? Or what about the liability when you go sliding across an intersection hitting someone due to the overweight? Again, will this company stand behind you and pay ALL the liabilities since no insurance company would? In fact, there really is no reason to get any insurance on this type of set-up, other than theft??

I simply fail to follow your logic!

My statement that "You can trust Andy Thomson and his operation” has absolutely nothing to do with YOUR relationship with YOUR insurance company. I insure my BMW X5 and the ASCL through Geico; Geico KNOWS that the X5 pulls the ASCL because, as I just said, they insure it also, and their alright with that. They have the statistics and if there was any undue risk involved they would have declined insuring the assembly.

Andy Thomson is a 2nd generation AS dealer with vast experience in all manner of towing assemblies. I’m a “gearhead” (ex Lube Engineer) , I spent 2 weeks at his operation in June of 2001, had free rein to walk through his shop and observe his operation. He is VERY Customer oriented (I should know as I spent 28 years in sales & marketing with Texaco) and his integrity is above reproach, so again I say that “You can trust Andy Thomson and his operation”, which again has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with YOUR relationship with YOUR insurance company.

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by withidl

I simply fail to follow your logic!

My statement that "You can trust Andy Thomson and his operation” has absolutely nothing to do with YOUR relationship with YOUR insurance company. I insure my BMW X5 and the ASCL through Geico; Geico KNOWS that the X5 pulls the ASCL because, as I just said, they insure it also, and their alright with that. They have the statistics and if there was any undue risk involved they would have declined insuring the assembly.

Andy Thomson is a 2nd generation AS dealer with vast experience in all manner of towing assemblies. I’m a “gearhead” (ex Lube Engineer) , I spent 2 weeks at his operation in June of 2001, had free rein to walk through his shop and observe his operation. He is VERY Customer oriented (I should know as I spent 28 years in sales & marketing with Texaco) and his integrity is above reproach, so again I say that “You can trust Andy Thomson and his operation”, which again has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with YOUR relationship with YOUR insurance company.

I'm sure your insurance company is more than willing to insure anything you want, and almost any way you want to insure it, as long as you pay them the money.

However, the problem might be, and this is what I'm sure "RLS" is talking about, is what are they going to say when it's time for them to pay a claim when you have an acident towing a 8000 pound trailer with a mid-sized SUV rated to to 5000 pounds. (the weights are just an example) And, what if that accident takes someone's life, and the claims are in the millions?

Insurance adjusters and lawyers have totally different attitudes than insurance salesmen.

[RLS]

Steve, that is exactly what I am saying.

withidl, I am so happy for you that you have so much confidence in the insurance salesman. Why not, just to Make sure about what you say, you have that insurance company send you a letter saying that they are fully aware of the weight limits being exceeded and they will not hold you responsible for this in case of an accident. That they are fully aware of your tow vehicle's towing capacity being ignored and will hold you harmless from any negligence that said weight limits being exceeded may cause. My wording may not be the best for this. This way, you are not just relying on what someone says over the phone?? I'm not trying to start anything other than to have you understand the risks you take. A lawyer would have a field day with this type of accident.

[kevin242]

Originally Posted by withidl

Geico KNOWS that the X5 pulls the ASCL because, as I just said, they insure it also, and their alright with that.

Just because Geico insures both the X5 and the ASCL doesn't mean they necessarily approve of an X5 towing an ASCL or are aware of what you are doing for a TV/RV combination. For all they know you could own a different properly-rated tow vehicle that's insured elsewhere for the ASCL and use the X5 as a daily driver.

Most insurance policies cover the items in question for various perils, but have a multitude of disclaimers for abuse, negligence or unintended useage. Unless Geico has given you a letter that states "we are willing to insure your under-rated X5 and ASCL when used in combination", I think you may be making dangerous asumption that Geico is "alright with that"...

I bet Geico would tell you that you would NOT be covered if you exceed the vehicle manufacturer's towing capacity. If i'm wrong, so be it. If you're wrong, it could cost you everything - So I would confirm it and make sure I have their answer in writing!

[Andrew T]

I know towing with a Volvo has to be very hard to get your head around if you have never had the oportunity to actually tow with one or a similar advanced vehicle. Automatically you would think of the Volvo as a small economy car and what could you tow with that? However the Volvo is a very substantial vehicle. This car weighs 3900 pounds with a light aluminum engine and transmission that means that most of the weight goes into its structure. The body structure on this car is very solid without all the chassis flex that is present in most body on frame vehicles, espessially pick up trucks.

The suspension is a very precise indepent suspension on all 4 wheels with virtually no side sway in the tires or suspension system. The performance tires have far more traction that hard truck tires. Stopping distance with the Airstream will be considerably shorter than it would be with a heavy duty truck. In an emergency maneuver the Volvo & 28' Airstream can likely execute it at higher speed than a 3/4 ton truck will solo and considerably quicker than it will towing. The bottom line is you are far more likely to be able to avoid an accident with this combination. After all if a 3/4 ton truck is supposed to solve all problems why do people with 3/4 ton trucks loose control of their Airstreams?

Yes the 3.2 Litre V/6 does not have the power of a large deisel so you do have to be more patient but not that patient, it will cruise nicely at 65 MPH and climb interstate grades at 50 MPH in third gear with plenty of reserve. So you loose a little time on the odd hill, on the other hand you spend a lot less time in gas stations. In 1985 a Suburban with a 350 V8 was all of 170 HP and it had to push a big boxy Suburban through the air before it could begin to tow the Airstream. Still thousands of Airstream owners towed 31 & 34' Airstreams all over the continent with these without a problem. Yet somehow today 230 HP is not supposed to be enough?

I am not saying you should all go trade your great big trucks in on Volvo's but try to understand that not everyone wants a big gas guzzeling lumbering truck to drive. We have set up hundreds of modern vehicles with Airstreams over the last 33 years with millions of miles of useage so for us this is not an unusual exotic set up it is just business as usual.

I know everyone here means well we are just doing things at a different level and if I had not been doing it for 40 years I would not likely beleive it either. Anyway we always back up what we say with the oportunity to experience it for yourself. If you are ever anywhere near London just stop in and ask to test drive something interesting. We will be glad to let you try it and if you want the E ticket ride I can provide that too.

Thanks for bearing with me.

Andrew T

[RLS]

Andrew T, I am in no way discrediting your ability to make the Volvo a very capable tow vehicle. What I am asking, is when the insurance company denies a claim because of the vehicle not within limits of what the tow rating is, are you able to stand behind these vehicles and pay any claims that the insurance company denies? When an attorney sues an owner for negligence of using a vehicle that is not rated for towing those weights, are you able to stand behind your work and take full responsibility? These are my questions about using such vehicles, not about your ability or the type of vehicle itself.

[dkottum]

Same old thing, when the big truck argument loses steam, they play the lawyer card. Let's keep the discussion about capability, not liability.

Doug

[withidl]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Same old thing, when the big truck argument loses steam, they play the lawyer card. Let's keep the discussion about capability, not liability.

Doug

Amen!

[SteveH]

Originally Posted by dkottum

Same old thing, when the big truck argument loses steam, they play the lawyer card. Let's keep the discussion about capability, not liability.

Doug

The manufacturer of the vehicle says it can safely tow 3300 pounds, and the Airstream weighs 8000 loaded.

You can do what you want, but that's all the information I need.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by SteveH

The manufacturer of the vehicle says it can safely tow 3300 pounds, and the Airstream weighs 8000 loaded.

You can do what you want, but that's all the information I need.

Been waiting for this post. I can't even believe this discussion is occurring!

#1) you can't defeat physics relative to tow vehicle weight vs. trailer weight.
#2) Exceed tow rating = FORGET your warranty!
#3) If the worst happens, your insurance company will back out. All they need is an excuse....right, wrong, or indifferent, they will.

Don't get me wrong, Volvo is a fine automobile, but 8000# with ANYTHING rated for 3300# is INSANE!

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, I think Andy at Cam Am is amazing. I also think he is very knowledgeable and talented. I even would like to see his operation. But I would never do what he is condoning. There are companies that are certified for making modifications to vehicles for the handicapped, trucks, buses, and limousines Etc. and they are able to legally change the ratings. If Andy can modify a vehicle and legally change the ratings to handle the owner's intended purpose, then I would become a believer.

[dkottum]

They will stress the liability issue of Andrew T.'s combos, then go to another thread and boast of 80 mph (on their GYM's rated 65 mph max) "like its not even there".

Doug

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by ROBERTSUNRUS

Hi, I think Andy at Cam Am is amazing. I also think he is very knowledgeable and talented. I even would like to see his operation. But I would never do what he is condoning. There are companies that are certified for making modifications to vehicles for the handicapped, trucks, buses, and limousines Etc. and they are able to legally change the ratings. If Andy can modify a vehicle and legally change the ratings to handle the owner's intended purpose, then I would become a believer.

Well...sorta. If a vehicle is manufactured by the OEM as an "incomplete" vehicle (ie, chassis cab, special build van for handicap upfit, conversion van etc.) then the upfitter has to certify and replace the label on the driver's door jamb with their own certification label, per Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). The OEMs publish an upfitters manual which precisely defines all engineering parameters allowed for the vehicle.

IMHO, and professional opinion, Volvo would never condone 8000# on a car originally spec'ed for 3300#.

This comparison of upfit vehicles by a secondary Manufacturer with "street mods" is apples and oranges. I would like to see the certification label changing the GVWs on these Volvos. Anybody got one?

[RLS]

Originally Posted by dkottum

They will stress the liability issue of Andrew T.'s combos, then go to another thread and boast of 80 mph (on their GYM's rated 65 mph max) "like its not even there".

Doug

I am running Continental Vanco2 rated R for speed, look it up!

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Well...sorta. If a vehicle is manufactured by the OEM as an "incomplete" vehicle (ie, chassis cab, special build van for handicap upfit, conversion van etc.) then the upfitter has to certify and replace the label on the driver's door jamb with their own certification label, per Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards (FMVSS). The OEMs publish an upfitters manual which precisely defines all engineering parameters allowed for the vehicle.

IMHO, and professional opinion, Volvo would never condone 8000# on a car originally spec'ed for 3300#.

This comparison of upfit vehicles by a secondary Manufacturer with "street mods" is apples and oranges. I would like to see the certification label changing the GVWs on these Volvos. Anybody got one?

Here's an example. My van was built as an incomplete vehicle by OEM. Conversion company changed wheels and tires added carpet, seats electronics, a lot of woodwork, windows, and stripes. OEM label is gone and upfitter label is attached as certification.
Anybody got one of these Volvos, or any other car certifying more than double trailer weight rating?

[Airslide]

Remember, I didnt say the Volvo wouldnt tow that beast if outfitted with a fancy setup. We did crazy things with the cars during testing and made it back. Its even possible the Volvo may handle that unit surprisingly well in a controlled banking curve. What I am saying is this vehicle is designed as a passenger car with light to moderate towing in mind. The 3.2 is a transversly mounted inline 6 cylinder with a very busy transmission. This is a front wheel drive car. When equiped as an all wheel drive we grab power from the right front axle and angle it back to the rear wheels. I mentioned this thread to an engineer that works with drivetrain from Sweden currently located in New Jersey and he quickly identified all the components that would be affected in a reasonably short term. Just one more thought on fuel mileage. I used one of our demo's to go back and forth to a class a few months ago. This vehicle was an 09' XC70 with the engine we are talking about here. The fuel mileage while averaging freeway speeds worked out to be around 20 mpg. I wonder if the mileage would drop to around 12 towing this airstream? What then would be the point?

Regards.. Vinnie

[Andrew T]

Hi Vinnie

I appreciate your insite into the drivetrain, what did the engineer feel was the weak link? It would be unusual for a company like Volvo to equip a vehicle with a drivetrain that is not up to its engine capability espessially when you consider the Turbo can pump a lot more power through this drive train.

For this customer another vehicle is not an option they don't have a driveway to leave a suburban in so they must have a low profile tow vehicle and prefer a wagon. These days that is a pretty short list and it is hard to beat a Volvo wagon. We have other customers with the XC70, some of them tow trailers consdierably harder tow than the Airstream and so far we have not had any issues.

I understand the XC70 uses the Ford / GM joint venture 6 speed that is used in the Flex and Enclave. We have about 40 customers now using this tranny many with larger trailers with larger engines with no issues at all. Volvo's were actually the very first smaller cars we ever set up, I guess because their owners were so dedicated to them. I remember putting hitches on them in the early 70's. Since that time we have set up a lot of different Volvo's for customers and we have just never had any durability issues with any of them.

The European towing spec has been the same for every Volvo model since the 70's even thought the cars have dramatically improved over that time. The big issue with European specs is that they use no weight distribution let alone a Hensley, primative mechanical brakes and their trailers have more aerodynamic drag than an Airstream. Their trailers are light but not necessarily easy to tow. You also see solo Volvo's in Europe cruising at speeds well over 100 MPH, I always figured this was much harder on the car than towing a 60 MPH. I think is one reason why European cars seem to have so much overbuild in them. On the other hand you rarely see one in Europe that is not impecably maintained.

For those who are worried about insurance, tow ratings are not legal number they are a recomendation only. Again some vehicles with very high tow ratings are very unstable vehicles putting a trailer on them does not make them better. Should I recomend a vehicle to a customer that I know is less stable and less safe just because a marketing department pulled a bigger number out of the hat? Once an insurance company makes the decision to cover you they have to do so, they can elect not to cover you again after and incident, for example even impared drivers have insurance coverage. Again in 33 years of doing this we have never had a customer have an insurance issue.

Thanks

Andy

[Andrew T]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Attachment 115102

Here's an example. My van was built as an incomplete vehicle by OEM. Conversion company changed wheels and tires added carpet, seats electronics, a lot of woodwork, windows, and stripes. OEM label is gone and upfitter label is attached as certification.
Anybody got one of these Volvos, or any other car certifying more than double trailer weight rating?

You'll notice there is no towing recomendation on this label or the label on any other vehicle that I have seen.

[AlbertF]

Originally Posted by SteveH

Well, I took the Colorado as an example simply because it is a simular sized American built truck, but since you brought it up....

The 70 Volvo has a 3.2 Liter engine (normally asperated engine), the Colorado's mid sized engine (there is now a 5.3 liter V8 option), but the mid sized in line 5 is 3.7 liter. The Volvo is 240 HP, and 236 ft lb torque, the Colorado is 242 HP, and 242 torque.

Any more questions?

Sorry, I didn't have time to finish my thought yesterday morning. I was indeed thinking of the inline 5 in the Colorado. Engine output is very similar, but the Colorado is likely to have have taller tires and overall gearing, as well as more friction in the driveline (rear drive vs transverse engine front drive) and poorer aerodynamics. Match the two vehicles up with the same trailer, and I am very confident that the V70 would outperform the truck. Even the 5.3 V8 wouldn't provide a dramatic advantage.

Of course, the car engine will spin faster to do the same work, but I don't consider that a problem.

I think Andy's being conservative when he says the V70 3.2 would tow an Airstream at 65 mph. I think it would be happy at 75; that's certainly what I'm looking for to speed up our annual trips across Montana and Wyoming and South Dakota and Iowa . . .

I suppose I'm a bit ecccentric , but I've analyzed the implications of power, torque, gearing, tire size, weight and aerodynamics as best as I can. (You can find aero drag calculators online if that provide the hp needed based on frontal area and an assumption about drag coefficient.) Through trial and error and observing the performance of my own combination I think I'm been able to fairly accurately predict the performance of a tow vehicle based on its specifications. FWIW, there is a European website that predicts performance of EU spec cars and and caravans (including the two EU Airstream models), but I don't have the skills or the time to replicate this for North American models.

Based on this, I would consider the 3.2 inline 6 (yes, it's a very short transverse inline 6) in the V70 to be very capable. Also, based on this I've run numbers on half ton pickups, e.g. GM 5.3s and I can fully understand why people say you need a diesel to pull a 7000 or 8000 lb trailer. The pickups give up a lot of towing power to tall tires and poor aerodynamics.

Quite simply, when towing an Airstream (I say this because aerodynamics are important) a car with a 3 to 4 litre engine will easily run with a pickup with a 5 to 6 litre V8.

My car has only a 2.4 litre; that's what I need to be more patient. I still outrun loaded tractor-trailers on 6% grades, however.

Thanks for reading. I hope this makes sense.