Vintage Tow Vehicles

[Steve Heywood]

Originally Posted by uwe

I was toying with the idea of getting something 1963 and potent to tow my 1963 Overlander ( up to 6000lb wet and loaded) with. Did GM make Suburbans in 1963? What was the hot setup for towing back then? Full size wagon?
Like I need another project.....

GM has made Suburbans since sometime in the 40s. There is a 64 for sale on eBay if you want to know what they look like, item # 4601187444. Just for grins go to eBay motors and type in 1963 then click on passenger vehicles to see what's available.

[safari57]

If I remember correctly at the Tin Can Tourists Deming, WA campout in August 2005 there was a early to mid sixties suburban there and I think it was with an Airstream, just don't remember exactly now. Perhaps that person reads the forums and will notice. I believe it was dark blue and may have had a V6 emblem on the front fender. I think the first suburban was 1936. They have been used to haul trailers for a long time, as were the international's (forget the name of their unit). Barry

[uwe]

Nice looking Suburban. I wouldn't like the panel truck, though. Need windows. But, i do recognize the body shape. They made pickups that looked just like this, didn't they?
Did Ford have a similar vehicle of that vintage? Sort of like an early Excursion? How about Chrysler?

[wahoonc]

Originally Posted by safari57

I think the first suburban was 1936. They have been used to haul trailers for a long time, as were the international's (forget the name of their unit). Barry

International Travelall we used to have one called the "Great White Hope" it was great big, white, and we hoped it would make it home without breaking down. IIRC it was a 1968. One strange item was it had a gas tank that was filled from the front quarter panel....

Aaron

[Action]

Originally Posted by uwe

Did Ford have a similar vehicle of that vintage? Sort of like an early Excursion? How about Chrysler?

Ford's line up for 1963 would have had a smaller van called an Econoline. It was introducted a year or so earlier. Came with a straight six only and maybe a stick only. Not sure. Drum brakes, and it was very light in the rear of the vehicle. Towing capacity would not have been very high. Like 3500#'s at best for a class II hitch. The draw back would have been the power train and no power brakes. It was designed for delivery service.

Most of the trailer towing of that era would have been done by the full sized vehicles of the day. Especially the station wagons.

Ford - Custom and Custom 500, Galaxie 500 and XL, Country Sedan and Squire
Mercury - Monterey, Montclair, ParkLane, Commuter and Colony Park
Lincoln - Continental

Even though Lincoln was unibody (and the rest of Ford was full frame) it was stout. I have recently discovered a trailer towing publication for 1966 that lists the towing capacity for Lincoln as 5000 #'s with a no cost* axle ratio change and no other requirements. Fullsize Ford or Mercury would have had a list of required options.

*no extra cost at the time of vehicle ordering.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[uwe]

Here's something interesting: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Custo...QQcmdZViewItem

[Action]

Dodge of the era would have also had a Power Wagon that would be very simular to that ebay listing. Both would be extreme over kill for towing most Airstreams.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[3Ms75Argosy]

Most of the crate engines I've seen come with steel valve covers.. (course, they could have replaced them, but I doubt that) I'd be willing to bet that it just came out of the Tahoe that was rolled (with the interior too).

Tall tires, 3.73 gears, replaced tranny, tows with it, hmmm. Think that's why he has 4.10's in the box too?

Looks sharp though. I'd lower it back down for tow duty. It'd look good with a certain '63 trailer I've been reading about!
Go for it Uwe! It's in San Diego too! I think you need another project!
Marc

[robandzoe]

Well, our 65 Jeep Wagoneer is almost all done mechanically. Next is the body work, where I need a couple of rear quarters. But, the 327 V8 is running sweet! I need a source for seat springs for the front bench seat too. I know with the Turbo 400 tranny it'll pull the Caravel fine, but we might experiment pulling the near 4000 lb Sovereign of the Road. Wht does everyone think of it pulling that? I'll try to upload some pictures in a little bit, I need to make the photos we have a little smaller to post.

Later,

Rob

[overlander64]

Greetings Rob!

Originally Posted by robandzoe

Well, our 65 Jeep Wagoneer is almost all done mechanically. Next is the body work, where I need a couple of rear quarters. But, the 327 V8 is running sweet! I need a source for seat springs for the front bench seat too. I know with the Turbo 400 tranny it'll pull the Caravel fine, but we might experiment pulling the near 4000 lb Sovereign of the Road. Wht does everyone think of it pulling that? I'll try to upload some pictures in a little bit, I need to make the photos we have a little smaller to post.

Later,

Rob

I towed my '64 Overlander (6,100 pounds Gross Weight) with my '85 Grand Wagoneer with the AMC 360 cubic inch V8 and 3.90 differentials. The Wagoneer handled the coach well, but was at or very near the limit of what I would be willing to tow with it both in trailer weight and length. The biggest issue I had with my Wagoneer was cruising range when towing the Overlander -- only about 126 miles on the 21 gallons of fuel in the standard tank.

It was the cruising range both solo and with trailer that caused me to trade it in '95 on a Chevrolet Z-71 club cab pickup that was simply unable to handle the Overlander (350 V8 with 3.73 differentials) as it even struggled in the modest hills of Southern Illinois. I was ready to take my Wagoneer back in less than a year even with its horrible fuel mileage as it was a much better tow vehicle than its replacement. My current Suburban is a wonderful tow vehicle, but it just does not have the personality of the Wagoneer; nor does it have the unbelievably reliable four-wheel-drive system of the Jeep.

You might try checking with automotive reupholsterers in your area who specialize in antique autos. With a little searching in my area, I was able to find an excellent craftsman who rebuilt the springs in my '65 Dodge so that the seat was even more comfortable than it was when the car was new. It was amazing what he was able to do simply by replacing a few coils and rebuilding the spring system.

Good luck with your Wagoneer!

Kevin

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by robandzoe

Well, our 65 Jeep Wagoneer is almost all done mechanically. Next is the body work, where I need a couple of rear quarters. But, the 327 V8 is running sweet! I need a source for seat springs for the front bench seat too. I know with the Turbo 400 tranny it'll pull the Caravel fine, but we might experiment pulling the near 4000 lb Sovereign of the Road. Wht does everyone think of it pulling that? I'll try to upload some pictures in a little bit, I need to make the photos we have a little smaller to post.

Later,

Rob

Rob,

If that 327 is the stock engine and not a much newer one, you should be fine. My 1973 Dodge PowerWagon with a 360CI 2V and 4.10 axles works fine for the 1979 Safari, gross 5800. However, that said, the 1977 Lincoln with the 460CI 4V and 2.75 axle works better because of the greater torque which comes in at about 60 MPH. You have a long enough wheel base, about 127" I think, the weight and of course the center of gravity is much lower that my Dodge and closer to the Lincoln. With the Jeep just don't be in a hurry to go up hill.

Bill

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by Action

Dodge of the era would have also had a Power Wagon that would be very simular to that ebay listing. Both would be extreme over kill for towing most Airstreams.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

Action,

The PowerWagons of that era have small engines and low gearing limiting the top speed. The Flat Fender type came with a 200 to 230 CI flathead straight six. Plenty of torque especially with the low axle ratios, but not much speed. The other four wheel drive pickups by Dodge had small engines also, by today's standards. There was a 1/2 ton town wagon which is similar to the Chevrolet and GMC Suburban. You can learn more information here: http://www.fortunecity.com/silversto...5/lttindex.htm

Although, like the Suburban on EBay, you can update the drive train and have a very cool vintage tow vehicle.

Bill

[Action]

Bill,

I am not familar with much in the Chrysler line up. I just knew the model existed and my cousin had a mid-60's Powerwagon in the 70's that he sold. I don't believe I ever saw it operate. It just looked like it would tow a house.

So I guess I will go back to my original position. Cars* did most if not all of the trailer towing for most of the time prior to 1980. If you had a truck, you had it mostly for business. Very few trucks were used to tow trailer for vacations. Want a vintage tow vehicle?????? Modify the powertrain of a truck or get a big Detroit car.

* Big full sized sedans and station wagons.

>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by Action

Bill,

I am not familar with much in the Chrysler line up. I just knew the model existed and my cousin had a mid-60's Powerwagon in the 70's that he sold. I don't believe I ever saw it operate. It just looked like it would tow a house.

So I guess I will go back to my original position. Cars* did most if not all of the trailer towing for most of the time prior to 1980. If you had a truck, you had it mostly for business. Very few trucks were used to tow trailer for vacations. Want a vintage tow vehicle?????? Modify the powertrain of a truck or get a big Detroit car.

* Big full sized sedans and station wagons.

>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

Action,

The PowerWagon will tow a house, just not very fast. You know DODGE stands for "Dem Old Dodges Go Everywhere". Don't forget in Fred Coldwell's article in Airstream Life about the Mexico caravan Wally used a Dodge PowerWagon.

I also agree with your statement about wanting a vintage tow vehicle.

Bill

[safari57]

Most of the folks that we know use vintage cars versus vintage trucks. There's more room, and many of them already had creature comforts like air conditioning, power steering & brakes, power windows, some had tilt wheels, etc and were designed to provide a reasonably comfortable ride and convenience. They also had an easier life than most trucks or commercial type vehicles so less frame damage, etc. A lot of the older cars were tucked away when their owners were finished with them so it's still possible to find them in reasonable shape and start with that versus most older trucks, the older they got the harder it seems they got used. With enough time, money and hard work anything can be updated, but I suspect for the purposes of the folks towing Airstreams the vast majority would lean towards vintage cars. If one looks at the old caravan pictures you'll get an idea of what folks used for cars, and remember the roads were not nearly as good, tires were bias ply, shocks were not nearly as good as they are today, the hitches used were not up to todays standards and the list goes on. Or that's my theory and I'm sticking to it, anyways. B )

[Globie64]

reading these postings, my thought is that the truck based tow cars would be less comfortable then the car, and maybe not handle as well... I'm thinking of the solid front axle of the Powerwagon.

Peter

[Action]

Back in those days (and the origins of vehicles) trucks were built to do a job the car was not up for. The car was basically an "A" to "B" machine. The truck was made to carry things like coal, dirt, water and mostly at slow speeds. Comfort was not even thought of. It's a work vehicle!

When trailers first made the scene they were small, light and just bolted on the back of the family car. Cause you wouldn't go on vacation with your farm truck that never saw a highway. So cars were the vehicles that were built with more and more comfort features. As an example, power windows go back to WW2 in cars. In trucks I am thinking the 80's. So as cars got bigger and more powerful, so did trailers. The powerful family machine for the 60's was the stationwagon. It was also the era when two (count them two) cars per family was getting common. So having a car the whole family could be transported was always needed.

The change occurred when the fuel and emmissions laws came into effect. They didn't apply to trucks over 8500 GVW. (So as not to restrict work vehicles) So a vehicle manufacturer could built a nice big truck and eventually a SUV with a big engine to tow. It didn't have to have a small fuel efficient engine.

So you are looking for a pre-1980 tow vehicle? Look at cars. As a heads up, the 70's was an experiment in car building that was less than ideal. Just my opinion.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Action

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by Globie64

reading these postings, my thought is that the truck based tow cars would be less comfortable then the car, and maybe not handle as well... I'm thinking of the solid front axle of the Powerwagon.

Peter

Peter,

True, a car is much more comfortable than a pickup for towing. My Lincoln is a dream to use as a tow vehicle, much, much more comfortable than the PowerWagon. But the carring capacity is much greater on the PowerWagon and it will allow me to take the trailer to places that the Lincoln won't. The Lincoln is just not a good off pavement vehicle because of the low clearance, soft suspension and two wheel drive. The solid axle on the PowerWagon is much tougher than independent suspension and I believe that most 3/4 and up four wheel drive vehicles still have a solid axle.

Bill

[Globie64]

How off road do you take your trailer? I understand the AWD advantage, we've shifted to all AWD because of where we live. I also agree the cars of the 70's are to be avoided... I worked in a gas station all through high school, the end of the '70s, and delivered a lot of cars for customers. This was in Piedmont, CA, so I got to drive a lot of Lincolns, Imperials, etc. After about model year '71, we saw so many American cars with really stupid mechanical failures.

Peter

[wkerfoot]

Originally Posted by Globie64

How off road do you take your trailer? I understand the AWD advantage, we've shifted to all AWD because of where we live. I also agree the cars of the 70's are to be avoided... I worked in a gas station all through high school, the end of the '70s, and delivered a lot of cars for customers. This was in Piedmont, CA, so I got to drive a lot of Lincolns, Imperials, etc. After about model year '71, we saw so many American cars with really stupid mechanical failures.

Peter

Peter,

I disagree on the 1970's, especially since I have two and use both of them as tow vehicles. The 1970's cars are the last ones with large engines and tow capacity. Regarding off road, I mean just off pavement. I would not hesitate to take the PowerWagon across a wet field or rutted roads in a national forest, but I won't take anywhere off a solid, smooth surface, because of the low clearance and two wheel drive.

Bill