V-6 Turbo diesel for '14 Ram PU

[dznf0g]

Slowmover, I would still like to see a link to those specific numbers. I too see the oilfields. I called on the North Slope back in the 90s and call on the Baaken now. Oilfield service is very unique in two ways. There is a tremendous amount of idle time and PTO time on many of the trucks, so mileage alone is not a good indicator of lifespan. (BTW, I'm not downplaying Cummins either....I think your numbers are low for them as well. Secondly, in the Baaken most of my customers are infrastructure and service providers to the oilfield. They, by their own admission, don't care about service or preventive maintenance as they are charging their rig and driver out at a rate of $3500 - $5000 a day! It is cheaper for them to drive the truck into the ground and replace it than take the downtime for routine maintenance and repairs.

It is RARE that I see a Duramax down for base engine issues below 500,000 miles. And yes durability testing is the ability to perform a simulated average usage over a 500,000 mile lifespan, by definition at GM. Some of it is done on dynos, and some in truck at several proving grounds, and some engines see a combo of both, as well as cross country tours to particularly tough areas.

[dznf0g]

BTW, the 6.6 duramax was a Med duty engine in the 4500 - 6500 series GMs and still is for some Isuzu models globally.

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by RamblinManGa

Hi Top. . . no, I didn't just fall off the turnip truck, info from 2 ASers I know in AZ. Sounds like a great package you're getting, hope it works out for you. I love my Ecoboost F150. It stickered at $44k, & cost me $35.8k, so really similar deal. Good luck & let us know how you love it, Regards, Craig

Craig,
I wasn't implying that you'd just fallen off the turnip truck at all.
I have heard that from a few salesmen around here. They just repeat what they are told to say at the morning sales meeting (if they remember). They change their tune when you sit down with them and tell them what you want and what you'd pay. It did take me walking away from the dealership a few times and showing them offers from other dealers to get the OK deal I got. Patience is critical.

Thanks, I'll let y'all know for sure how it works out (or not).

[slowmover]

dznf0g I speak only about two things in the above: MTBO, or, B50 life, and perceptions by independent owners (some through traumatic experience). Idle time is not relevant to hotshot for the most part. I know of no one with under 30-mph averages. Most are above 40. I think we'd agree that these are motivated owners when it comes to basic service. For an RV'er it is moot when buying new. That group won't keep them 10-years or 300k anyway. But there are those of us as fulltimers who will, and who won't/can't buy new.

You can look though back issues of FLEET OWNER if you want. And try the CUMMINS website as well. For running around with a service truck or deliveries most anything will do. But its still a DODGE to be backed up under the heavy loads.

[jcl]

Slowmover:

You appear to be quoting B10 and B50 lives, and directly contrasting them. A B10 life of 225,000 miles can not be said to be worse than a B50 life of 350,000 miles, they are different statistical measures.

MTBF is a valid and oft used concept. Failure is an defined event. MTB Overhauls depends on the decision of when to overhaul, and the population under discussion.

Life to overhaul without qualifying load factors and drive cycles is meaningless. We used litres of fuel burned to quantify overhaul periods in my work, and found good relationships. Work it harder, it wears out sooner, for the same design and identical product.

If a 5.9 or 6.7ISB is a medium duty engine, then it is lighter duty than a 9 litre Cummins with 50% more displacement and a similar rating. Specific output is way up. Similarly, a 200 hp 5.9 is more of a medium duty engine than a recent higher output version.

By many definitions, a medium duty engine (IMO) has liners.

I think the brand loyalty is a little overdone (fanbois?)

Jeff

[Lance M]

Can y'all relate this argument between the Dmax and Cummins to the RAM 1500 with the VM Motori L630DOHC engine?

[slowmover]

Yeah, I'm done. We've said it before and references are online for those willing to look before spending.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Top

Can y'all relate this argument between the Dmax and Cummins to the RAM 1500 with the VM Motori L630DOHC engine?

Sure. They all three have similar design approaches. We don't have valid B10 measures to contrast them. They will all pull an Airstream. Until someone has experience doing so, probably not a good idea to put a Ram 1500 with a VM in to oilfield hotshot service.

[dznf0g]

No, TOP, I can't I have zero experience with smaller displacement Diesels. Even though there is now a 2.0l Cruze diesel to compete with VW, it is so new and there are so few of them, relatively speaking, that I have no opinion. Same for the VM. While used in Europe, I don't know much about them at all. It's really a new market segment for US. GM gets a 2.8 L diesel, used elsewhere in the global market for 5 years or so, in 2016 for the upcoming Colorado/Canyon. It'll be interesting to see how many are demanded by US consumers.
I sure do wish we'd dust off the 4.5l for the 1500s and SUVs that was planned prior to BK.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by slowmover

Yeah, I'm done. We've said it before and references are online for those willing to look before spending.

I tried searching FleetOwner website and came up with nothing?????

Unfortunately, today, the vast majority of fleet buying decisions are being made by procurement committees, rather than professional fleet managers and as a result whoever slaps the most money on the hood at purchase time wins the bid. Total cost of ownership analysis becoming extremely secondary.

Brands never win TCO. Each of the brands tend to win a segment based on TCO.
This year Vincentric recognized Ford for 150, GM for 2500, and Dodge for 3500. It was an odd year in that respect.

Much more to TCO than just powertrain. but it is TOTAL cost as reported by fleets across all disciplines and duty cycles.

[slowmover]

Top, I am looking forward to that new truck. New VPP hitch to go with it? No TT too small for one, IMO.

I'll have a little fun spending your time and brain-cell energy consumption in the following. Others may also be interested (instead of a PM). I imagine that you will take that truck to its limits (the point of having one, IMO). Just tossing it all out there.

My habit with vehicles new to me is to head straight for a CAT Scale, fill the fuel tank and get my "will never weigh less than this" reading. My guess is that it will be 450-lbs above ship weight. The addition of tool boxes, bed topper, whatever, is where the individual wheel readings come into play for the real adjusted empty weight. One wants readings before and after WD is applied, and to read it not only axle by axle, but by wheel position; TT and TV. A stack of scale tickets is your friend (preaching to the choir).

TV frame flex (they all flex, even the double frame on the Pete) is handled by a hitch extension to down near to the axle. The spare can be relocated in the bed. REESE makes an extension kit (if you're interested, as with all of this; Andrew_T has the specifics). SAE specs 1k lbs force for the usual hitch, so take a tip from the way we all had to once do it: keep the potential 4k of WD force evenly-applied by a bit of cutting/welding fabrication and extend the hitch tube to down near the drive axle (adding diagonal bracing). I say this as I am imagining that a family man will add gear, supplies, etc to the maximum. A good thing to find out about early. So, keep the forces "contained" and truck wear minimized is the reason for exploring this.

I won't be the only one curious about what DODGE has to say in re setting up a WDH on a half-ton. On mine (2004) the requirement, even for a 1T, was just 350-lbs of TW. The latest 1T have a heavier hitch receiver (greater TW), and GM, for one, has some broad parameters available. Door placard info would be welcomed, for example.

When it comes in I'd be measuring the anti-roll bars (in mm) FF & RR to replace bushings with polyurethane (greaseable) from ENERGY SUSPENSION. No reason to let those wear, and a TT will do it "prematurely". If anyone makes a Panhard rod (or "axle locator") I'd be on that, too. KONI or BILSTEIN shocks, right off.

You have likely noted that some will change anti-roll bars to larger sizes. I am adding one to the rear of mine and have to upsize the front to accommodate the change at the rear. This "encourages" the rear to come unglued from the road quicker. If it is a temptation, play cautiously. Towing, it will be an aid . . but how heavy is your truck solo? Mine is within 40-lbs at all four corners, solo. That is the sort of information one wants when playing with fire. The usual solo truck weight imbalance FF/RR is central, and tire loads (pressure) is second.

At work we make a point to fill DEF whenever we are at one of our shops from 275/gl totes with, thankfully, electric pumps. About 180-200 mpg. DEF at the pump at Flying J is reasonable, but our tanks are on the "wrong" side (have a huge blower in the way), thus we have to buy it by the box if out on the road (might make 2,700-3,000 miles per tank, so usually more than weekly). Much more expensive that way, but shelf life is short so we don't carry any with us.

We actually fuel at LOVES, but all truck stops are similar in this. I'd imagine you have a FLYING J RV discount card (see threads) they are much the best chain truck stop in regards all amenities (PILOT is same owner, the same otherwise except more of a convenience store set-up.) Stick with J for trip planning of daily re-fuel for the post "4-hours of drive time 1-hour break from the road" (safety practice).

I would want 45/gls diesel capacity as as to afford a 14-mpg @ 60-mph 500-mile range on level ground at 80% consumption. TITAN makes a spare tire space fuel tank that is an addition to the OEM main tank for the 1T trucks. Might have something for you (see, you didn't want the spare tire underneath anymore, anyway). One always wants greatly extended idle time in the event of road closure where one is trapped for 24-hours, sometimes more. Does the truck have an "Extended High Idle" function? Full fresh water & propane + food in the TT makes this easy. Let others be "rescued"; etc. Know the idle limitations!!

I'll let you decide about ULSD fuel. Some are of the opinion that it is "dirty" and leaves black crud on fuel filters (asphaltenes), so the use of fuel additives is mandatory to some . . . . it has become so to me on my Dodge, and I pay out of pocket on the Pete every 10k or so. It's a wake up call as I run upwards onto the Edwards Plateau out of San'tonio at 74k plus. Our trucks have all had a recent CUMMINS re-flash and climb less aggressively, but top the grades at nearly the same speed and gear as before. A shot of go juice every so often makes a difference I've convinced several other drivers who now do the same. The company does not reimbuse us, so take that as you will. We usually use POWER SERVICE [silver], somewhat overdosed. SCHAEFFERS Diesel Treat 2000 is "best", IMO, (have to order, likely, but contact them for local rep), as is either SHELL or EXXON diesel. I'm not at all impressed by VALERO diesel.

I would stay away from even commercially produced biodiesel. What does the owners manual say? B20? Check the label on the pump as I see B15, B5 and B20 regularly. Like ethanol in gasoline, good luck to us all. Low fuel burn is a great attractant. But highs or lows per a tank or three is meaningless. It is the average mpg, AND ONLY the average that counts. One may break it out as one wants (my sig; diesel at $4/gl) but the cost of operation (as distinct from ownership) is always a fun topic. There are downloadable apps, but I prefer a journal kept in the console to retain all receipts as well. Tally at years end (or at oil change intervals as I prefer). Average mpg and average mph go hand in hand. As does brake and tire life. Fuel economy is really just one measure among these to see how well I am using the vehicle, so to speak.

GENOS GARAGE is the longtime great aftermarket source for all things DODGE and diesel. Get on the mailing list. If they carry something it has likely proven the test of time: next to no returns. Same for TDR (TurboDieselRegister). BOB4X4 is a contributor there and here, and Joseph Donnelly is a name to remember for there. To my knowledge neither of these men have your truck, but they are good to ask questions about DODGE (in particular) and diesels (in general). Good help over there, head and shoulders above most all vehicle forums. (Other contributors from here, as well, I don't mean to leave anyone out).

If you start a thread on your truck and load it up with tech info on all aspects, you'll have readers from Cummins Forum, Woodalls, TDR and other forums. The more, the better. This is a truck with a high level of interest. The better -- the more complete -- the mechanical baseline (numerically-derived, thus the stack of scale tickets) the better the advice to sort things properly. Wheel-by-wheel, before and after, draws in the tire engineers with better "guesses" than the rest of us combined. Etc. And so forth and so on in re the TV, the hitch lash-up, and the TT.

Enough of this. You've seen me go on about it before. I'm using it as an excuse for a few hours today (terrible wifi connexion) to keep from going outside . . in a little while I'll start on a 10A-capable DC power harness for my new "big" CB radio . . and if you ever wanted one, of any sort, then CLAY'S CB SHOP is now east of San Antonio across the street from the Petro, just past Loop 410 on IH-10E. They hotrodded my first CB (am still using it) and the tech is the same man (I said, hey, didn't recognize you what with grayer hair and more pounds; he replied, yeah, we're both more, ah, distinguished than we were seventeen years ago, but I'm still better looking). PM me on that if interested. I'll have a radio for work, and one each for TT and TV.


.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

I tried searching FleetOwner website and came up with nothing?????

I couldn't find it either. It may have been taken down because of the review of the claims that were made.

I know Ford uses a B10 life. I think GM does, but I am not positive. Cummins uses a published B50 life, a completely different metric.

Here is some backstory, interesting read. It compares the IH built Powerstroke to the Cummins. It would be better if it was a Powerstroke comparison and not a T444, but it is still illustrative.

http://bellaphotographics.com/FordSu...%20Cummins.pdf

This is separate from the fact that a B50 life is not the expected life, or a predictor of an individual's engine life to overhaul, due to the failure points not having a normal distribution.

[Lance M]

Wow, Ross! Thanks. That will take me a bit to get it all sunk in.
I do plan to have a thread about my truck here on Airforums. I participate in the ramforumz and the RAM1500diesel forums. They are nowhere near as genuinely good and useful as the Airforums.

As far as longevity goes with the B10/B30/B50 things. Isn't there a similar EU spec?

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Top

As far as longevity goes with the B10/B30/B50 things. Isn't there a similar EU spec?

The reliability figures being discussed refer to statistics measures of time to failure. They are international, and are used in reliability engineering. You can calculate a Bxx life for a lightbulb.

You may be thinking of fuels specs, also using Bxx, where x is the percentage of bio fuel.

Jeff

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by jcl

The reliability figures being discussed refer to statistics measures of time to failure. They are international, and are used in reliability engineering. You can calculate a Bxx life for a lightbulb.

You may be thinking of fuels specs, also using Bxx, where x is the percentage of bio fuel.

Jeff

I don't work in the Automotive world. I'm not an engineer, but I have a few engineer friends. I guess when I'm with my engineer friends, they forget to learn me what I should know about reliability statistics.
Until it was brought up on this thread, I'd never heard of B10/B20/B50, just B.S.

It is all good I think. If I drive my truck 12,000 miles per year I think it should last too long.

Edit: Thanks for learnin' me. I'm "always learning"

[Rawn77]

I thought I'd throw my two cents in after pulling my 30' FC with my ED.
My truck has the 3.55 rear end with the air suspension. Before the ED, I towed with a '12 RAM Hemi with the 3.92.

I have put about 3000 miles of towing so far, often through the mountains of I89 (VT & NH). I'm still smiling. It tows beautifully always keeping speed even when climbing the mountains. I'm getting between 15-16 mpg while towing.

I know it's not a 2500 CTD, but it was never a consideration for me. I don't like the ride of the 3/4 ton; there's a huge difference between those and the 1/2 ton PU's.

On a side note, the air suspension is absolutely amazing!!

I can't recommend the EcoDiesel enough.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Top

I don't work in the Automotive world. I'm not an engineer, but I have a few engineer friends. I guess when I'm with my engineer friends, they forget to learn me what I should know about reliability statistics.
Until it was brought up on this thread, I'd never heard of B10/B20/B50, just B.S.

It is all good I think. If I drive my truck 12,000 miles per year I think it should last too long.

Edit: Thanks for learnin' me. I'm "always learning"

Top:

My background is mechanical engineering, 24 years in the heavy duty diesel business, then a second job leading an engineering product development team for a Tier 1 supplier to the automotive industry. That company has a partnership with Cummins. Sorry for the use of lingo.

If you are driving your truck 12,000 miles per year I agree that engine life to overhaul comparisons are completely moot, and you should be more concerned about local dealer support, and the rest of the truck, when selecting a vehicle. I think your new truck should serve you very well.

Cheers

Jeff

[dznf0g]

...for a heck of a lot longer than 385k. If maintained and operated relatively lightly loaded (the way we RVers use them), it's a 750k+ engine, as is the Dmax.

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by jcl

I couldn't find it either. It may have been taken down because of the review of the claims that were made.

I know Ford uses a B10 life. I think GM does, but I am not positive. Cummins uses a published B50 life, a completely different metric.

Here is some backstory, interesting read. It compares the IH built Powerstroke to the Cummins. It would be better if it was a Powerstroke comparison and not a T444, but it is still illustrative.

http://bellaphotographics.com/FordSu...%20Cummins.pdf

This is separate from the fact that a B50 life is not the expected life, or a predictor of an individual's engine life to overhaul, due to the failure points not having a normal distribution.

Ok, after reading the linked Navistar info, I get it .

Originally Posted by Rawn77

I thought I'd throw my two cents in after pulling my 30' FC with my ED.
My truck has the 3.55 rear end with the air suspension. Before the ED, I towed with a '12 RAM Hemi with the 3.92.

I have put about 3000 miles of towing so far, often through the mountains of I89 (VT & NH). I'm still smiling. It tows beautifully always keeping speed even when climbing the mountains. I'm getting between 15-16 mpg while towing.

I know it's not a 2500 CTD, but it was never a consideration for me. I don't like the ride of the 3/4 ton; there's a huge difference between those and the 1/2 ton PU's.

On a side note, the air suspension is absolutely amazing!!

I can't recommend the EcoDiesel enough.

Thanks for the report. First hand experience. That is very good MPG.

Originally Posted by jcl

Top:

My background is mechanical engineering, 24 years in the heavy duty diesel business, then a second job leading an engineering product development team for a Tier 1 supplier to the automotive industry. That company has a partnership with Cummins. Sorry for the use of lingo.

If you are driving your truck 12,000 miles per year I agree that engine life to overhaul comparisons are completely moot, and you should be more concerned about local dealer support, and the rest of the truck, when selecting a vehicle. I think your new truck should serve you very well.

Cheers

Jeff

Thanks Jeff! I am VERY concerned about dealer support. If the RAM service department is no better than the local Toyota and Chevy service departments, it could be dicey at best.

Originally Posted by dznf0g

...for a heck of a lot longer than 385k. If maintained and operated relatively lightly loaded (the way we RVers use them), it's a 750k+ engine, as is the Dmax.

Thanks dznf0g!

Well, at 750k I'd be 106 years old!
But I do plan to operate and maintain it properly.

[wbrown]

Originally Posted by Rawn77

I thought I'd throw my two cents in after pulling my 30' FC with my ED.
My truck has the 3.55 rear end with the air suspension. Before the ED, I towed with a '12 RAM Hemi with the 3.92.

...

I can't recommend the EcoDiesel enough.

Hooray! Another EcoDiesel Airstreamer! My wife and I picked up our 28' International today, and it's still parked on the dealer lot while we overnight there.

My truck has the 3.55 rear end, but doesn't have the air suspension. I may have a different experience to report.