Two Airstream rollovers in a month

[dznf0g]

Trolling - no. Jacking - yes. It needs a new direction.

[boondockdad]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Now that is the question.

What if I claim to be an expert tower with over 30 years of experience and hundreds of thousands of miles towing trailers of all sizes, and I say that my 31 foot Airstream tows behind my 1/2 ton truck safe and stable, rock solid?

Am I being "reckless" for not getting a bigger truck?

Are ALL Airstream owners "reckless" for not getting an intrinsically more stable 5th wheel trailer and a Kodiak or F-650 to pull it?

If so by who's say so?

My experience says that I know what a good combination feels like and how it performs, so if what I say about the manners of my combination is not true, then I must be a liar.

Can you see where the feathers of 1/2 ton towers get ruffled by certain claims in these discussions?

I'm picking up what you're laying down, and I ain't callin you a liar...

But, I'm going to go back to my earlier post:

Originally Posted by boondockdad

When you're dealing with complicated vehicle dynamics
us non-engineer types have to start somewhere:
vehicle ratings

I think all other things being equal (operator skill, road, traffic, weather, etc), it starts with this:

[J. Morgan]

Where is the GCWR on that tag?

How much weight will an Airstream equipped with WD put on a truck?

Enough that a 1/2 ton is insufficient?

Even with a fair amount of stuff in the box?

The rear axle of my 1/2 ton only weighs about 3,000 pounds with my trailer attached, (and loaded with the stuff I carry) and not to mention how much less my truck weighs than a 1 ton diesel...

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by dznf0g

Nope. Gravity causes air at lower elevations to be more dense than at higher elevations, so the air +humidity (clouds) at a certain elevation are less dense than air below. (much simplified version of the actual dynamics)

I'm not sure how much of this discussion is serious, so forgive me if I get sucked in. A cloud is not part of the air. (It is part of the atmosphere though.) Air is a collection of gases. A cloud is very small particles of condensed (liquid) water suspended in the air. Gaseous water (water vapor) is invisible.

There ia a possibility I guess (not likely though, that all of this has changed in the 50 years since I received my degree in Atmospheric Sciences.

It is still a fact though that humid air is less dense than dry air.

http://www.weatherquestions.com/What_is_water_vapor.htm

Ken

P.S. on the Obscure (foggy) chance that this post is total uneducated BS, it will have plenty of company in this thread.

[dznf0g]

Originally Posted by Ag&Au

I'm not sure how much of this discussion is serious, so forgive me if I get sucked in. A cloud is not part of the air. (It is part of the atmosphere though.) Air is a collection of gases. A cloud is very small particles of condensed (liquid) water suspended in the air. Gaseous water (water vapor) is invisible.

There ia a possibility I guess (not likely though, that all of this has changed in the 50 years since I received my degree in Atmospheric Sciences.

It is still a fact though that humid air is less dense than dry air.

http://www.weatherquestions.com/What_is_water_vapor.htm

Ken

Agreed, I did put my "highly simplified" disclaimer in for a reason....

[dkottum]

Can-Am Rv as a resource for improved Airstream towing.

Andrew Thomson at Can-Am has set up three thousand (3,000!!!) front-drive vans and some folks are still telling us why it can't be done. Or shouldn't. Or mechanical failure. Or liability (never substantiated). Or . . .

I understand why it doesn't make sense to us, like when the world was believed to be flat. Hard to get your head around it when you've been told something opposite for so long.

This is not to say we all should be using front drive vans. Andy offers much more than that. Can-Am has advised us in setting up two pickups. Little tweaks that make a big difference. If and when we upgrade to a European style diesel SUV he will help us again. He has tested and improved the towing of heavy duty pickups.

This second-generation Airstream dealer has been in business 45 years and he has learned some things, and graciously and generously has offered that experience and knowledge to us. He gives seminars, writes articles in many publications, and offers help here on the forum.

We can learn some things that apply directly to the many issues brought up in this thread discussion. Many will refuse and that's human nature. The rest will benefit.

[J. Morgan]

But hey, just because they have decades of experience, well this does not mean they are not idiots....

<really thick sarcasm>

[J. Morgan]

It bugs me to no end when folks insist that something that is successfully done cant be done, as if they know better than the people who do things.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

It bugs me to no end when folks insist that something that is successfully done cant be done, as if they know better than the people who do things.

There are a huge number of people, (including many in positions of power) in the world today who believe that what is good for them is good and necessary for everyone. It is not isolated to towing or even travel trailers in general. It is found in every field and endeavor that humans are involved in. I am not old enough to know for sure, but I imagine it has been around since cave men. Sometimes it is driven by the desire for power and wealth. Sometimes it is driven by insecurity and the need for affirmation in their beliefs. Sometimes it is a fear of learning and trying something new. There are other reasons that I have yet to make up.

If one is not confident in the own beliefs, it is necessary that everyone else's beliefs be the same as theirs. If one is confident in their own beliefs, they are likely to want to share them with others, but without the necessity to tell others that their beliefs are wrong.

The preceding analysis is made by me and me alone. I am totally unqualified to make any such analysis. It is food for thought, but be sure to eat something healthy along with it.

Ken

[pappy19]

I will be continually baffled by a dealer that advocates the use of a passenger car over vehicle designed to tow. No matter how you spruce it up, it's still a purse made from a sow's ear. It's one thing to add an air bag to a pickup truck, an extra tranny cooler or the like, but to take a regular passenger car and add a 2" hitch plus using mathematics X+Y=Z, and call it a valid tow rig is beyond laughable.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by pappy19

I will be continually baffled by a dealer that advocates the use of a passenger car over vehicle designed to tow. No matter how you spruce it up, it's still a purse made from a sow's ear. It's one thing to add an air bag to a pickup truck, an extra tranny cooler or the like, but to take a regular passenger car and add a 2" hitch plus using mathematics X+Y=Z, and call it a valid tow rig is beyond laughable.

I will continually be baffled by people so readily admitting that they are baffled. Is this a call for help to understand how these smaller tow vehicles work? If so I am sure there are those here who will be patient enough to explain it to you.

Hen

[John&Vicki]

Originally Posted by pappy19

I will be continually baffled by a dealer that advocates the use of a passenger car over vehicle designed to tow. No matter how you spruce it up, it's still a purse made from a sow's ear. It's one thing to add an air bag to a pickup truck, an extra tranny cooler or the like, but to take a regular passenger car and add a 2" hitch plus using mathematics X+Y=Z, and call it a valid tow rig is beyond laughable.

Makes you wonder how Airstreams got popular in the first place given that they were pretty much all towed with passenger vehicles for decades. Must have been wholesale carnage in the Airstream world in those days!

Fred: "Glad you made it to the rally George. We lost two trailers this time, a little better than average thank goodness."

Cheers,
John

[Chuck]

Originally Posted by John&Vicki

...Must have been wholesale carnage in the Airstream world in those days!...

not to mention--no seatbelts!! {gasp!}

[JamuJoe]

Thanks for the reporting on these accidents, lest we become complacent from videos of a Porshe doing a slalom course towing an Airstream.

As an Engineer and Manager of Technical Risk Management (happily retired), I've employed root cause analysis (TapRoot) in investigation of many industrial (petroleum industry) incidents, and would caution against jumping to conclusions that only focus on size of equipment. The root cause of an incident is often not among the first assumptions. Tow vehicle capability, condition and setup, speed, road and weather conditions, driver skill, driver distractions (eg; use of cell phone) are among the many factors that an investigator would consider. One has to be specific and detailed.

Personally, I've towed our FC23FB for over 44,000 miles behind a Grand Cherokee Diesel (2006 replaced by 2014) in all conditions, and feel quite confident in it's capabilities. Would I give the keys to Clark Griswold for a family vacation? No.

I recently helped a relative by driving a U-haul truck towing a car trailer for 500 miles, Houston, TX to 'Podunk' MS. No sway control, surge brakes, no questions of the proposed driver's qualification at the rental counter. I'm amazed that there aren't many more towing accidents than I've seen along the highways.

Safe Travels,
JamuJoe


Safe Travels,
Jamu Joe

[boondockdad]

Originally Posted by J. Morgan

Where is the GCWR on that tag?

How much weight will an Airstream equipped with WD put on a truck?

Enough that a 1/2 ton is insufficient?

Even with a fair amount of stuff in the box?

The rear axle of my 1/2 ton only weighs about 3,000 pounds with my trailer attached, (and loaded with the stuff I carry) and not to mention how much less my truck weighs than a 1 ton diesel...

Good point.
Why isn't the GCWR listed on that federally mandated label?

?

Just want to mention two things; first, if the TW on a 34' really is small enough not to exceed the GVWR, then wouldn't you be facing a potential catastrophic sway like Nick's scenario? Long, heavy trailer.. no TW.

Second, IMHO, I think a 1/2T pickup truck and a minivan are in two very different categories. I've driven both. Changing the brakes on our Dodge Caravan, the suspension components looked like a go-cart compared to the RAM1500. Not to mention chassis, drivetrain, tranny....
Personally, I think modern 1/2T pickups are more than adequate. I was stunned by the performance of my Dad's Ecoboost F-150 pulling our 30' S/O. Very well mannered.

Look, I'm not throwing any rocks.
Like I said before, I ain't no engineer...
just sayin' I'd love to see CAT slips and a door label for that minivan+34' setup

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by boondockdad

Good point.
Why isn't the GCWR listed on that federally mandated label?

Here is my guess. (not even an educated one)

There are so many variables (hitching systems and type of trailer primarily) that enter into towing, the specified weight would have to have many ifs and buts about it. It would need to be a worst case scenario number. It is simpler for the government and manufacturers to ignore the subject. I am surprised that they even touch on towing as much as they do.

They'd have to have an internal forum where they could all argue about it like we do.

Ken

[PKI]

------snip----As an Engineer and Manager of Technical Risk Management -----snip----The root cause of an incident is often not among the first assumptions. Tow vehicle capability, condition and setup, speed, road and weather conditions, driver skill, driver distractions (eg; use of cell phone) are among the many factors that an investigator would consider. ------snip----- I've towed our FC23FB for over 44,000 miles behind a Grand Cherokee ----snip ------


Joe, thanks!

Is there anything learned from the 23/SUV towing experience that might have been an issue in either of these two incidents?

Pat

[Glenritas]

Originally Posted by John&Vicki

Makes you wonder how Airstreams got popular in the first place given that they were pretty much all towed with passenger vehicles for decades. Must have been wholesale carnage in the Airstream world in those days!

Cheers,
John

When you stop and think about it you'll realize that the full size cars of the day ( 40's, 50's, 60's & 70's ) had the same capabilities of the then 1/2 ton trucks .

Back in the day the Airstreams were smaller and lighter then today.

Today's cars , minivans and small suvs don't have the same capabilities as yesterdays 1/2 ton P.U.'s , and today's Airstreams are larger and heavier .

BTW todays 1/2 ton P.U.'s are almost as capable as 80's & 90's 3/4 ton P.U.'s. and in some cases more so.

[dkottum]

Today's SUV's being used to tow Airstreams weigh as much as 1/2 ton pickups, some with higher torque diesel engines, larger brakes, lower center of gravity, and fully independent suspensions.

The so-called minivans are not all that mini these days and have excellent stability features compared to pickups, and have higher payload ratings than many 1/2 tons.

And the unibody construction is stiffer, no frame flex the pickups suffer with. No bouncing, loose differential to try to control as well.

[timhortons]

Originally Posted by Ag&Au

I'm not sure how much of this discussion is serious, so forgive me if I get sucked in. A cloud is not part of the air. (It is part of the atmosphere though.) Air is a collection of gases. A cloud is very small particles of condensed (liquid) water suspended in the air. Gaseous water (water vapor) is invisible.

There ia a possibility I guess (not likely though, that all of this has changed in the 50 years since I received my degree in Atmospheric Sciences.

It is still a fact though that humid air is less dense than dry air.

http://www.weatherquestions.com/What_is_water_vapor.htm

Ken

P.S. on the Obscure (foggy) chance that this post is total uneducated BS, it will have plenty of company in this thread.

why do these microdroplets sometimes clump together into a cloud rather than disperse ? is it electrostatic ? is there a surface tension like area at the boundary of the cloud ? not going to get my towing questions answered here.