Two Airstream rollovers in a month

[nickcrowhurst]

Originally Posted by boondockdad

Nick, that's incredible.
What's the take-away?
Limit trailer weights?

My take on that incident is that it's all too easy to edge slowly and gradually over the years towards a dangerous attitude of mind. My pals were very confident "hands-on" practical guys. I'd sailed with them across the sea on multi-day and night trips in rough weather. They could build houses and ocean-going sail boats. Hauling a trailer a few miles was a trivial task in their minds. They were accustomed to hauling trailers in connection with house building. I suspect that their confidence just caused them to edge closer and close to the edge - and then they went over it.
I try to guard against this tendency, but it requires constant attention.
If I'm solo sea kayaking I have to try to make myself take all the safety precautions and equipment - even if I've paddled the same route a dozen times without any problem.
If I'm rock-climbing, the same issue is relevant. I try to take the same care over belaying and hold-testing on a route I've climbed before, as I did on the first occasion.
On my trailer, I try on each trip to take the same care over set-up, weight distribution, tires, etc. as when I first hauled the Airstream.
It's not easy, and I can't claim always to achieve it.
Nick.

[Foiled Again]

Originally Posted by dkottum

I thought your last 2500 Silverado and Airstream combo rolled over?

If you are getting sway with your Hensley/ProPride style hitch a bigger truck won't help, something is wrong with the setup or loading. Maybe there is a good hitch shop where you are traveling that can take a look at things and see what's cooking.

1. The Hensley needs to be tweaked
2. I've culled and dumped 500 lbs of "stuff" and re-arranged what is left over- where it is stowed in the EB or the truck - and I'm still having problems keeping the weight distributed. Heck I've even lost 10 lbs. and the guy at the CAT scales and I may be getting a "thang" goin on.

When I got the EB from Colonial they messed with the drop for quite a while to get it perfect, but over time, the Airstream has gone nose down - and the rear springs & shocks are compressed. I have a local Hensley dealer and you bet your life we'll be going over the hitch with a fine toothed comb.... but I fulltime and I don't WANT to have to drive with all the cast iron and both sewing machines in the front seat with me... and there simply isn't that much storage aft of the axles in an EB.

The EcoBoost is remarkably capable of pulling, but all those trucks in the west going 80 mph, with the skirts and tail things hanging off just push the TOW vehicle around (a bottle of water sat on the counter for over 400 miles, but my arms and shoulders are tight as violin strings for an hour after I park it for the night. When I bought this truck, I wanted the best combo "daily driver/tow vehicle" I could get.... Practical experience has now taught me that the compromise is NOT worth the slightly reduced "in town" mileage. What I should do is get an electric bicycle and ride that whenever I'm parked and the weather is decent.

So, YOUR MILEAGE MAY DIFFER, but for me the truck question got resolved by 6500 miles and 20 some days of steady towing. Ergonomically the Chevy fits my squatty body better. I don't need more speed I just need to haul my stuff efficiently. Those stiffer springs will get a workout.

BTW for all that every one in the west drives like maniacs and I can't believe how often I had to exceed 70 to BE safe... the western drivers are definitely more aware and courteous - moving over to let people get up to speed and onto the road, staying in the right lane and only passing on the left, etc.

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by kscherzi

The flip side of a 3/4 ton truck is that it beats the trailer up with its extra heavy duty springs.

A 2012 on up 3/4 or 1 ton rides smother than a maxed out 1/2 ton.I know as I have had them all.


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[leedav]

This thread has been very entertaining to say the least... My takeaway is even though I am towing a 16' Bambi with a 5200lb 05 Yukon XL and an Equal-i-zer, have raced rear-engine cars and blah blah blah, I am now very motivated to be DAMN CAREFUL.

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by Moflash

A 2012 on up 3/4 or 1 ton rides smother than a maxed out 1/2 ton.I know as I have had them all.

How about one that isn't maxed out?

[Moflash]

My 2010 F150 Supercrew 4x4 5.7 had a 1700 lbs payload and we were always careful with what we took but pulling a 28ft International we were approaching the limit.The tongue weight with full propane tanks took almost 1100lbs that left 600lbs allowance for my wife and I ( Ford allows 150 lbs for a driver)and my dog (105 lbs) along with any gear that we took and the wd hitch.
The truck could pull the trailer without a problem although down shifting and running at high rpm on steep grades.The ride was ok but harsh with any bumps or potholes.Brakes were weak and I noticed a floating swaying sensation with trailer attached on dips in the road.Wd hitch was adjusted properly and the truck set perfect.
I had ordered this truck for the sole purpose of pulling my Airstream with all the right equipment Max Tow,upgraded payload capacity etc.
I have been in the automobile business for 39 years and have ordered thousands of new vehicles in my career and am considered to be one of the best.I am also a ASE certified technician ( mechanic).I have worked for Chevrolet,Mercedes and Saab.My last 20 years has been with Ferrari,Lamborghini,Porsche,Rolls Royce,Bentley,McLaren,Lotus etc.
I have been lucky enough to travel the world and visit all the factories ( even drink beer with the people who design them).I have also been fortunate enough to drive on the majority of racetracks in the USA and Europe both alone and with some of the best drivers in the world.I have always had a passion for automobiles.
I have earned the right to say that I am knowledgeable in automobiles and trucks( certified in medium and HD trucks early in my career).
I can say honestly with all this knowledge in my background I made a mistake buy purchasing a 1/2 ton truck for the purpose of pulling my Airstream cross country.
Traded for a a new F350 6.7 Supercrew 8ft box single rear wheel 4X4 in 2012 and felt a big change in stability and comfort though brakes were a little weak.Drove it 39,000 miles traded for a 2015 with the same specs and it was night and day difference,Quieter, smoother,better brakes and well more powerful.
Not everyone needs or can afford a F250 or F350 but for my size trailer and above a 1/2 is not the best choice.
The long wheelbase and weight do make a big difference in stability contrary to what they say in this forum.


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[andreasduess]

Originally Posted by Glenritas

On page 397 of the 2008 Honda Odyssey owners manual it plainly states the CGVWR is 8,410 # (3,815kg).

The spec's for your Honda state its curb weight at 4,639 #.

Now add passengers and stuff along with the tongue weight transferred to that and you are way beyond the CGVWR and Tow Rating of the Odyssey.

So how do you defend that after the collision in a court of law. After all the posts, your own blog and anywhere else this info appears on the net. Never mind the accident investigation conclusions. Besides the lawyers having a field day.

May you never get in that situation . But IF you do, good luck.

BTW Can-Am will also be dragged in for their part in the set up.

Like I said before 'when the lawyers get involved' .

I don't mean to break the "be nice" rule, but you're 100% wrong - I don't know how else to say it.

The Honda has a payload of 1326 lbs. My trailer, after weight distribution, uses about 600lbs of that payload, leaving 700 for passengers and gas, i.e ample. All axle and tire ratings are being adhered to.

I took extensive advice, from engineers, lawyers, insurance experts and car mechanics before trusting CanAm with their setup and got the green light from every single professional.

There are no legal repercussions, there are no insurance repercussions, there are no engineering worries. None. Nada. Nichts.

The only criticism tends to come from random internet users with dire, but always unsubstantiated, warnings about potential legal implications, when a simple phone call to a reputable lawyer can put all of these at rest.

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

I don't mean to break the "be nice" rule, but you're 100% wrong - I don't know how else to say it.

The Honda has a payload of 1326 lbs. My trailer, after weight distribution, uses about 600lbs of that payload, leaving 700 for passengers and gas, i.e ample. All axle and tire ratings are being adhered to.

I took extensive advice, from engineers, lawyers, insurance experts and car mechanics before trusting CanAm with their setup and got the green light from every single professional.

There are no legal repercussions, there are no insurance repercussions, there are no engineering worries. None. Nada. Nichts.

The only criticism tends to come from random internet users with dire, but always unsubstantiated, warnings about potential legal implications, when a simple phone call to a reputable lawyer can put all of these at rest.

You stated in a earlier post that a travel ready Odyssey weight was 5500lbs (1000lbs payload with passengers and gear based on a 4500lb curb weight).Plus the hitch weight.
Hmmm........After weight distribution ?? You of all people know that tongue weight is a constant and only the downward force is transferred the weight itself remains and is not removed from total payload calculation.


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[Moflash]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

I am not sure where you get the idea from that the Honda has anemic brakes. That's simply not the case.

Here are some numbers.

The travel ready (not max) weight of a Honda Odyssey is around 5500 lbs, with gas and occupants. Top speed is electronically limited to 110 mph, or about 180 km/h.

If momentum (p) is mass x speed, then p equals 605,000 for the Honda at max velocity. We know that the braking system will be well equipped to deal with this - the vehicle is designed to come to a safe and controlled stop from maximum speed.

Additionally we know, and as a racing driver you will be keenly aware of this, demands on a braking system increase in line with weight, but exponential with speed.

In layman's terms this means that a faster, lighter, car will need beefier brakes than a slower, heavier car. It also explains why high end sports cars have huge brakes, despite carrying next to no weight. All that (p) needs to go somewhere.

So now lets run these numbers again in a towing situation.

5500 lbs (car) plus 7500 lbs (trailer) make for a total weight of 13,000 lbs. Towing at 60 mph means that p=780,000.

So while there's a difference in p of 175,000 at 60 mph, this almost disappears at 50 mph, and completely disappears just below.

This example also assumes non-working trailer brakes and completely dis-proves the oft made and never supported anemic brake argument. Add working trailer brakes into the equation and the numbers are even more favourable.

If you compare stopping distance from the same speed with a heavy duty truck and a van, the truck will almost always need more space. That's due to a number of factors - again as a racing driver you know about the difference suspension setup makes in handling and braking. Adding a trailer to the equation does not magically increase the capabilities of a truck, nor does it decrease the capabilities of a van.

As a little bit of an anecdote, the engineer who was, until his retirement, responsible for clearing 18 wheelers for use on Ontario's roads is an Airstream owner. His tow vehicle of choice? A Honda Odyssey.

As fas as the farm vehicle argument is concerned, I grew up on a farm. You and I both know what farm vehicles are designed to perform on fields, by definition off-road.

However, on the road those off-road assets become on-road issues, as anybody who has ever driven a tractor well knows.

Funny this is your earlier post.How about another physics lesson.Lol


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[Glenritas]

Andy ....

You state your ready to tow Honda weighs 5,500# and your Airstream on the road weighs 7,500# . The combined weight of your rig is 13,000# !!!

What part of the CGVWR of 8,410# that Honda states in your owners manual don't you understand ?

YOUR RIG IS 4,590# OVER WEIGHT !!!!

NO AMOUNT OF WEIGHT DISTRIBUTION IS GOING TO CHANGE THAT !!!

Thing is you're hauling a second Honda in your rig !

Like I said before, I hope you never have a collision , but IF you do, GOOD LUCK !

[J. Morgan]

People really don't understand the basics of towing.

#justSayin

Tires
Brakes (TV and trailer)
Steering
Power to the ground
And tongue weight.

"Towing capacity" is just a number, that may correlate toward to "capacity", and may correlate more to brand marketing.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Glenritas

YOUR RIG IS 4,590# OVER WEIGHT !!!!

Calculated as if the 34 is being carried by the Odyssey on the roof rack, lol.

Honda uses the term GCWR to define their tow rating. Fair enough. It isn't a legally defined weight rating, as discussed above, as GVWR and axle ratings and tire ratings are, no matter how many capitals you use. Unless of course the Odyssey is licensed as a commercial vehicle. Your local statutes may be different of course.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Moflash

You of all people know that tongue weight is a constant and only the downward force is transferred the weight itself remains and is not removed from total payload calculation.

When you remove a portion of the downward component of the payload, what do you call the remainder? Horizontal payload?

[DHart]

There sure is a good bit of overt defensiveness on the part of some 1/2 ton truck owners here. But there needn't be. If one's weight requirements conservatively fall within the limitations of a 1/2 ton, that's fine. But for many AS owners, the 1/2 ton truck is not well-suited as a TV. That's not a slam on your choice of buying a 1/2 ton, it's just a matter of fact, that's all.

Most importantly, those relatively unfamiliar with pickup trucks and towing should be made aware that the safe payload with most 1/2 trucks may be less than they might have imagined it to be. These folks need to get a thorough education of determining weight requirements and capacities for their particular application.

If you're planning to pull a 27', 28', 30' Airstream, especially, one would be well advised to carefully and thoroughly add up the weight of all the elements that comprise your "travel world" and compare that number to the available payload on that shiney new 1/2 truck you're considering and see how those numbers compare. You may be in for quite a surprise. After doing so, don't be surprised if you agree that with the larger Airstreams, going with a 3/4 ton makes a lot of good sense due to payload, if nothing else. Consider, too, that many/most of the 3/4 ton trucks are also equipped other features which might be a of great value to you when towing.

If the 1/2 ton truck comfortably and safely fulfills what is required for you, great! But no need to get yourself worked up into a huff defending that choice, or suggesting that your choice would be suitable for anyone else. Each person's situation and requirements are quite different and unique.

These considerations apply no matter what your age, experience, wisdom, or driving skills and abilities.

No vehicle or combination of vehicles can save a stupid, careless, inattentive, naive, or just "crappy" driver from crashing and burning.

[Glenritas]

jcl ,

The letters CGVWR mean Combined Gross Vehicle Weight Rating .

That means the weight of the 2008 Honda Odyssey and the 34' Airstream in this case can not exceed 8,410# according to the 2008 Honda Odyssey owners manual .
Unfortunately Andy's rig weighs 13,000# and that my friend is 4,590 # heavier then the CGVWR or about the same as the unladen weight of another 2008 Honda Odyssey .

What part of this don't you and Andy understand.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by Moflash

A 2012 on up 3/4 or 1 ton rides smother than a maxed out 1/2 ton.I know as I have had them all.


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Originally Posted by BoldAdventure

How about one that isn't maxed out?

I can only speak to my 1995 & 2006. Our 06 2500 is equipped with Autoride, electromagnetic shocks front and rear, no auto leveling.
It handles better and has a much smoother ride than our 95 2500. Loaded or empty. (LT265/75/R16 Michelin)

Neither Burb caused any trailer damage.

Bob

[Hamish]

Hello, I've learned quite a bit from this discussion, from all parties who clearly are passionate about their positions. Just to throw another number into the mix, the government of British Columbia uses all of the same guidelines but adds another. In BC, the tow vehicle cannot exceed the weight rating (which of course includes any weight transferred by the hitch but which does not include the weight of the trailer itself. The trailer must also remain within it's own axle weight ratings. In addition, and this is the number that seems to be interesting, BC recommends 1 horsepower per 150kg of weight in the complete rig. So in the case of the Honda Odyssey - unless a lot of horsepower has disappeared - there should be no issues as he must have at least 93 HP (at least if my math is correct - which can be suspect as an Arts major) to safely pull his rig and I suspect that most of the original 200+ HP is still available in his engine. http://www.th.gov.bc.ca/cvse/referen...info_sheet.pdf

[J. Morgan]

Will a one ton truck stop trailer sway?

If my truck is not "trail rated" does this mean that I may not take it off the pavement?

Sorry guys. There are a lot of people who think adding up weight that does not even rest on a tow vehicle makes all the difference in the world regarding safety, but it does not.

There are countless safe miles driven where vehicle of less than "3/4 ton" have performed quite well.

I find it a bit irritating when a person, or even worse, when a mob of people emphatically state a thing is "unsafe" where it is demonstrated that it is safe by the experience of countless people. (They are all liars or just stupid I am sure)

For crying out loud, you guys have even convinced a BAMBI OWNER that he needs a at least a 3/4 ton truck... Lol, SERIOUSLY?

I am sorry folks, even if you do read all 927 pages of your ridiculously mundane and boring government/lawyer mandated owners manual, that does not make you a towing expert.

Now, are all of you "1/2 ton deniers" going to pitch in and help the afore mentioned Bambi owner buy his "necessary" new Kodiak tow vehicle?

[ROBERT CROSS]

J.

Point well taken...but some us don't opt for 3/4 'cuz of towing ability but payload capacity.
In our case, GVAR's give us the ability to load as needed,(for us), and still have the wiggle room to have what I consider a satisfactory safety margin.

Bob


25' Classic
Burb
DW
Dog
Boat
Hensley
& Lotsa stuff

[xrvr]

Mo flash, please don't confuse these people with logic truth!