Two Airstream rollovers in a month

[PaulnGina]

Wow!!!! THAT was exciting!!!

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Glenritas

Same on this side of the boarder .

The Odyssey in this case is beyond its weight rating pulling a 30' Airstream.

As for never hearing about anyone ticketed or sued ... That is the stuff you generally won't hear or read about in the news or admitted online. It happens with the people involved.

Did you notice that so far no one has found the accident report on the O.P's. post in this thread or any more info on the two wrecks. This stuff is between the parties involved and not news worthy.

Do you have scale tickets to back up your claim? Weight ratings include GVWR, axle weight ratings, and tire load ratings. Are you conflating a towing rating with those weight ratings?

Don't worry about a ticket if you don't have one to post. A reference to a statute or regulation, applicable to non-commercial vehicles, would be fine. Or were you saying that tow ratings are not legal definitions south of the Canadian border?

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by mandolindave

My old brake controller had two adjustments. One timing and one intensity. I needed to fiddle and experiment depending on city and highway. Otherwise the brakes would grab big time around town. So I understand intensity

BUT why timing so the trailer brakes activate later? Same reason ???

I have a maxbrake and the trailer brakes come on with exactly the same timing and intensity as the tow vehicle brakes. Best money I ever spent.

[andreasduess]

Originally Posted by Glenritas

The Odyssey in this case is beyond its weight rating pulling a 30' Airstream.

The Odyssey is beyond its tow rating, but within all other ratings, including axle rating, tire rating and payload. The old 34' trailers have a, comparatively, low tongue weight and a factory weight of just over 6000 lbs, 7500 lbs ready to camp.

[ROBERT CROSS]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

The Odyssey is beyond its tow rating, but within all other ratings, including axle rating, tire rating and payload. The old 34' trailers have a, comparatively, low tongue weight and a factory weight of just over 6000 lbs, 7500 lbs ready to camp.

.....and the point is?

Bob

[Climber]

Originally Posted by Foiled Again

Ford f150 ecoboost, pulling Eddie Bauer 25... conclusion? Going shopping for a 2500/3500 silverado. Tail wagged me a few too many times.

Can you provide some specifics? I pull a 27' FC with an F-150 Ecoboost, and haven't had a problem, whether with winds or mountain grades.

How exactly did the tail wag you, and under what conditions? Any idea why? I'm sure a lot of F-150 owners would like to know, so please fill us in!

Safe travels...

[slowmover]

Probably bad WD hitch settings. Thomson likes the newest ones where a pickup is preferred by the customer. Better to follow that up on a certified scale.

[kscherzi]

The flip side of a 3/4 ton truck is that it beats the trailer up with its extra heavy duty springs.

[SeeMore]

Interesting notion: "never read about legal repercussions of being overweight." I suspect there are laws regarding weights on the books but law enforcement DMV/DOT concerns are not the "legal" you need to worry about. It certainly isn't high on the potential revenue fines police chase for their municipal treasuries.

The "legal" you do need to worry about is prosecution (in both criminal and civil suits) if your action causes felony property damage or takes a life and your vehicle is proven to have been over whatever your state recognizes as GVWR. If found guilty, you could face estate ruin and/or incarceration I suspect.

How many RV owners follow court dockets and/or mire through resolved 'wrongful death' cases years later to note proof of negligence was based on exceeding weights. It certainly isn't something a newspaper reporter gets funded to chase as their industry shrinks in the internet age.

[Glenritas]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

The Odyssey is beyond its tow rating, but within all other ratings, including axle rating, tire rating and payload. The old 34' trailers have a, comparatively, low tongue weight and a factory weight of just over 6000 lbs, 7500 lbs ready to camp.

On page 397 of the 2008 Honda Odyssey owners manual it plainly states the CGVWR is 8,410 # (3,815kg).

The spec's for your Honda state its curb weight at 4,639 #.

Now add passengers and stuff along with the tongue weight transferred to that and you are way beyond the CGVWR and Tow Rating of the Odyssey.

So how do you defend that after the collision in a court of law. After all the posts, your own blog and anywhere else this info appears on the net. Never mind the accident investigation conclusions. Besides the lawyers having a field day.

May you never get in that situation . But IF you do, good luck.

BTW Can-Am will also be dragged in for their part in the set up.

Like I said before 'when the lawyers get involved' .

[ROBERT CROSS]

.....the Airforums Credo has always been.

“If your happy with what you're using......it's adequate.
If others are unhappy with what you're using......it's not.”
RLC

FWIW.....There is no flip side....My 3/4 beats up nothing.



Bob

[hshovic]

As always, I appreciate all the interest and points of view. My point again, is to consider towing within your vehicle capacity. Tow ratings as given don't necessarily reflect that capacity very well. There are lots of other variables out there (driver ability, attitude, external factors, hitch setup, etc.), but this is one of them we can plan for.

I have taken three advanced drivers' courses (given for ambulance, HP, and others). They emphasized that our society's normal driving training emphasizes avoidance of problems (proper speed, awareness, driving for conditions, etc.) and not so much on what to do if a bad thing happens. This course emphasized what to do if a wheel leaves the road, a cow appears in your lane, a skid starts on a curve, etc... But not everyone
takes that course, so it appears it is best for most drivers to do more prevention than mitigation. Prevention might include towing with a vehicle that has adequate capacity for the item towed.

Quoting myself:

I was not suggesting heavier vehicles make them safer. I was suggesting towing within vehicle capacity may be safer than towing on the edge or over true vehicle capacity. For those who want to read about capacity calculations, see my post of 2007, when I started streaming.

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...tml#post456088

[Gnorts]

Originally Posted by hshovic

I have taken three advanced drivers' courses (given for ambulance, HP, and others). They emphasized that our society's normal driving training emphasizes avoidance of problems (proper speed, awareness, driving for conditions, etc.) and not so much on what to do if a bad thing happens. This course emphasized what to do if a wheel leaves the road, a cow appears in your lane, a skid starts on a curve, etc... But not everyone
takes that course, so it appears it is best for most drivers to do more prevention than mitigation. Prevention might include towing with a vehicle that has adequate capacity for the item towed.

Driver training is inadequate to non-existent. IMHO, a majority of drivers think they're home watching TV. The windshield is the TV screen, and they are just passive observers. They have absolutely no clue about the physics involved in moving two or three tons of machinery down the road. No clue at all.

[xrvr]

Most people can operate a motor vehicle, very few can actually drive one safely.

[ericpeltier]

Originally Posted by Silverflames

After reading through these debates I have realized a couple things that will help me.

1. I have to lean over to reach my p3 brake controller, its to low and needs to be moved up.

I have come to the same conclusion. Always good help here.

Eric

[ericpeltier]

Originally Posted by andreasduess

The travel ready (not max) weight of a Honda Odyssey is around 5500 lbs, with gas and occupants. Top speed is electronically limited to 110 mph, or about 180 km/h.

If momentum (p) is mass x speed, then p equals 605,000 for the Honda at max velocity. We know that the braking system will be well equipped to deal with this - the vehicle is designed to come to a safe and controlled stop from maximum speed.

Andy - Your thinking is spot-on.

I think where it comes apart in real life is this. Do we KNOW that the car with the high top speed was designed with brakes adequate to deal with its top speed? It's hard to know for sure. Read a few car magazines, and one will invariably stumble across an article where a car with a HUGE engine and top speed clearly had inadequate brakes, to the reviewer.

I know that you spend a bunch of time on this board defending your tow vehicle choice, and I feel for you. I think I know the reason for the pushback you feel. Deep down, most people here would agree with your assessment/logic of "top speed = bigger brakes", but we can't see it with our eyes. Just looking at a rotor, it's hard to grasp if the 1" larger rotor is really capable of absorbing all that kinetic energy. What we CAN see is wheelbase, ladder frame, and curb weight.

Just my $0.02. From an Engineer talking about "feelings", mind you.

[boondockdad]

Originally Posted by nickcrowhurst

Your well-chosen "almost" reminds me of an occasion about 40 years ago. A couple of pals who were both experienced builders, engineers and general "can-do" guys asked if I could help collect a trailer and then load a 35 foot sailing yacht onto it with hydraulic jacks. We went to a derelict railroad yard to pick up the trailer. The trailer was massively heavy, probably two or three tons of 10" deep steel girder A-frame with twin axles, all to be towed by a 1960s era Ford Consul Corsair saloon, coupled on a 2" ball. (A most unsuitable tow vehicle for that trailer, of course) I saw there was zero hitch weight when it was coupled. I suggested to the driver that perhaps some weight on the hitch would be advisable. He told me it would be fine, as we were not going far, and we would go slowly.
The two guys were in the front seats, and I was in the rear with the 4 year old son of one of the guys.
We pulled out of the yard, and turned left onto the small country road. As we reached about walking speed, the trailer swung sideways across the road, then back the other way to go across the grass, then back again across the road. Vehicles coming towards us dived into the side. This time the trailer overtook us and swung the car to be facing in the opposite direction. I dived on top of the boy in the back seat (no seat belts in those days) to squash him down on the seat as the trailer went backwards through the hedge on our left side, dragging the car and occupants backwards through the hedge to end up in a field. No-one was hurt.
We got the rig back on the road, coupled up again, put as much nose weight on the ball as the car would bear, and VERY slowly crawled to our destination.
So, yes, "almost".
Nick.

Nick, that's incredible.
What's the take-away?
Limit trailer weights?

PS, I can't believe gubmint doesn't regulate RV sector more than it does, already.

"If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it." -Ronald Reagan

[Alphonse]

Originally Posted by hshovic

As always, I appreciate all the interest and points of view. My point again, is to consider towing within your vehicle capacity. Tow ratings as given don't necessarily reflect that capacity very well. . . . . . .
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...tml#post456088

Thanks for starting this thread Hank. Obviously it has gotten a lot of interest and many differing points of view.

Your encouragement to this community to tow within the capacity of their vehicle is exemplary and I thank you for that.

[DC Bruce]

@nick: Having owned a 36-foot sailing yacht, I would estimate the boat's weight at between 15,000 and 20,000 lbs. Remembering that they typical displacement hull sailboat uses around 40% of its total weight as ballast in the keel. Who knows how much the trailer weighed.
Returning to the OP, the original model Ford "Exploder" was an accident waiting to happen. It was easily possible to reach the GVWR of this vehicle with 5 passengers alone, so it's a very poor choice to tow an Airstream and probably was significantly overloaded, which, by itself, can cause handling problems. Another design characteristic of the Explorer that was revealed in the Firestone investigation is that the SUV was softly sprung and recommended tire inflation pressures were low -- all in an effort to generate a car-like ride. This exacerbated control problems when a tire blew; imagine what it would do with the vehicle 50% overloaded.
The second incident involved a rental. Who knows how competent the driver was or whether the rig was properly set up?
I don't think either of these incidents offer much guidance other than the obvious: (1) don't overload the TV, (2) have your rig set up correctly and keep it that way, and (3) respect the difference between driving a single vehicle and a combination.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by DC Bruce

@nick: Having owned a 36-foot sailing yacht, I would estimate the boat's weight at between 15,000 and 20,000 lbs. Remembering that they typical displacement hull sailboat uses around 40% of its total weight as ballast in the keel. Who knows how much the trailer weighed.
Returning to the OP, the original model Ford "Exploder" was an accident waiting to happen. It was easily possible to reach the GVWR of this vehicle with 5 passengers alone, so it's a very poor choice to tow an Airstream and probably was significantly overloaded, which, by itself, can cause handling problems. Another design characteristic of the Explorer that was revealed in the Firestone investigation is that the SUV was softly sprung and recommended tire inflation pressures were low -- all in an effort to generate a car-like ride. This exacerbated control problems when a tire blew; imagine what it would do with the vehicle 50% overloaded.
The second incident involved a rental. Who knows how competent the driver was or whether the rig was properly set up?
I don't think either of these incidents offer much guidance other than the obvious: (1) don't overload the TV, (2) have your rig set up correctly and keep it that way, and (3) respect the difference between driving a single vehicle and a combination.

I agree with this 100% with 1 addition:

Know what the heck you are doing!!!!!

My opinion:

A lot of times the responsibility for this partially resides with those that sell trailers commercially. In my mind they should have a responsibility for determining if the prospecting buyer has a knowledge of towing and how to do it safely. If not they should provide that training or at the very least, ensure the buyer knows where to get it. Towing a trailer safely does not come automatically with knowing how to drive safely. (which unfortunately a lot of people don't know how to do either). In addition good sense just not come automatically with growing up.

Ken

P.S. A true believer in the virtues of Darwinian theory can forgo all of this.