Two Airstream rollovers in a month

[reelfastgreg]

Originally Posted by JCWDCW

BTW locking up wheels does not make for faster stopping...hence antilock brakes

just for clarification, i used to ride performance MCs at high rates of speed on the track. i consider myself an 'expert' braker, stoppies are not a challenge. i could obtain about 1.5 Gs of braking force without locking up the wheels. ever heard your tires howling from the load?

now we add on ABS and guess what, your braking distance INCREASES. that's right, the pulsing of the system adds length to the stopping distance. almost cost me my life in avoiding an errant deer crossing directly in front of me when that ABS kicked in. BMW MCs are set to engage at 1 g, not enough headroom for good quality braking on dry surfaces. sold that BMW the next week.

so the moral of my tale is learn to take your braking force to the max without engaging that ABS and you will stop way shorter than once it starts pulsing. of course all of this on dry roadways.

[dkottum]

I thought the purpose of ABS was to keep the vehicle stopping in a straight line.

[BoldAdventure]

Originally Posted by gpt

and of course, that was the original message which folks seem to have forgotten.

It might of gotten lost with the insults about our impending death.

[ROBERT CROSS]

....."your braking distance INCREASES."

Maybe, but not usually in Buffalo's snow, and as Doug noted, being able to steer is kind'a nice too.

Bob

[andreasduess]

Originally Posted by nickcrowhurst

When I gained by college degree in applied mathematics, I understood that the purpose of brakes is to convert kinetic energy (m*v^2) , not momentum (m*v), into heat energy. Additionally, the kinetic energy of a system does not increase exponentially with speed (e^v) It increases with the square (v^2)
Reference:
GCSE PHYSICS - What is Kinetic Energy? - Equations and Calculations - Mass and Velocity - GCSE SCIENCE.
I accept that this amount of detail is not required in a discussion forum such as this, but such detail, if quoted, needs to be accurate, and referenced, IMHO.
Nick

Thanks for cleaning up my rushed and somewhat shoddy math. But while I indeed erred in the detail, the point I was making still stands.

[Glenritas]

So according to the 2008 Trailer Life towing guide the 3.5L v-6 Odyssey has a factory tow rating of 3,500 # .

You are advocating towing a triple axle 30' Airstream that weighs double your tow rating ! Just because you can , doesn't mean you should !

This is irresponsible !

On this side of the US boarder it is unlawful to exceed the tow rating and will get the lawyers involved in case of an collision.

[kscherzi]

Speed is the devil. A VW bug should be able to safely tow any trailer up to 5 mph. Sway at 5 mph is hard to imagine. No doubt the accidents described by the OP were due to speed above the tow vehicles ability to handle. A F350 diesel will happily roll above its safe speed.

It's been my observation that the heavy truck drivers when towing will push the speed envolope more agressivly than most others. Maybe it's because their engines are more powerful and it's a easier thing to do.

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Glenritas

On this side of the US boarder it is unlawful to exceed the tow rating and will get the lawyers involved in case of an collision.

Source?

On this side of the border, weight ratings have legal significance. Tow ratings don't.

[Foiled Again]

Ford f150 ecoboost, pulling Eddie Bauer 25... conclusion? Going shopping for a 2500/3500 silverado. Tail wagged me a few too many times.

[Road Ruler]

Originally Posted by Foiled Again

Ford f150 ecoboost, pulling Eddie Bauer 25... conclusion? Going shopping for a 2500/3500 silverado. Tail wagged me a few too many times.

That is a surprise. Do you have a pic of your rig? What kind of connection system are you using? thnxs

[Lance M]

Originally Posted by Glenritas

On this side of the US boarder it is unlawful to exceed the tow rating and will get the lawyers involved in case of an collision.

This is not true. No law enforcement agency is concerned with a vehicle's tow rating that I've ever heard or seen. Just more internet forum myth. Please cite any case of someone being cited, charged or sued for exceeding the Manufacturer's TOW RATING.

They are concerned with Gross Vehicle Weight Rating, Gross Combination Weight Rating and Front and Rear Axle Weight Ratings. Even then, I've yet to see, hear or read of an actual case where someone with a personal use towable RV or other trailer was cited, charge, held, convicted or sued for exceeding any of those ratings.

Right now across the highways of the USA there are thousands of 1/2T, 3/4T, and 1T vans, trucks and SUVs being used for commercial applications that are exceeding the manufacturer's TOW RATING.

[Lance M]

I grew up in rural Iowa on a corn farm. I started driving things at an early age. I've driven lots of things over the years starting with an old Cub Cadet lawn mower up to an 8x8 HEMTT truck in the Army. I was a driver instructor for many years. One of the first things I learned trying to teach people to safely operate Army vehicles, was that we all have differing sets of skills. Some people are bad drivers, and it doesn't matter what vehicle they operate, or how much training they receive, they are not, and never will be, a "good" driver. Sometimes these people tow Airstream trailers and roll them going down a hill on a sunny day, or roll them on a flat straight road. Putting them behind the wheel of a 3/4T pickup does not make them a better or safer driver.

[dkottum]

Originally Posted by Foiled Again

Ford f150 ecoboost, pulling Eddie Bauer 25... conclusion? Going shopping for a 2500/3500 silverado. Tail wagged me a few too many times.

I thought your last 2500 Silverado and Airstream combo rolled over?

If you are getting sway with your Hensley/ProPride style hitch a bigger truck won't help, something is wrong with the setup or loading. Maybe there is a good hitch shop where you are traveling that can take a look at things and see what's cooking.

[Tater]

Since I don't know the root cause of the two rollovers I will comment on driving. I've towed my SOB and now 3 Airstreams with Silverado 1500 gas and 2500 diesel. My wife did not drive the 1500 because we knew we were pushing the braking capabilities. She is very comfortable in the '15 25oo diesel driving and braking. We pass thousands of vehicles each trip on the road and we expect the other person to be as capable to handle their vehicle as we are. It only takes one not paying attention or distracted in some way to cause an accident. We knew the 1500 Silverado didn't handle the 30' Classic well both performance and braking and we knew we had to wait till 2015 MY for a new truck so we made allowances for handling based on what we were towing with. My take away is that the person driving has to know what they are doing because you just can't fix stupid no matter what they are driving. My $.02.

[J. Morgan]

Yesterday right up the road from my work a 3/4 ton pulling a trailer wrecked and rolled on a flat straight divided highway.

What might we gather from this?

Certainly all of those who have bought 3/4 ton vehicles to tow with have wasted their money.

All people who don't have at least a one ton, preferably a HD, need to upgrade.

[Glenritas]

Originally Posted by jcl

Source?

On this side of the border, weight ratings have legal significance. Tow ratings don't.

Same on this side of the boarder .

The Odyssey in this case is beyond its weight rating pulling a 30' Airstream.

As for never hearing about anyone ticketed or sued ... That is the stuff you generally won't hear or read about in the news or admitted online. It happens with the people involved.

Did you notice that so far no one has found the accident report on the O.P's. post in this thread or any more info on the two wrecks. This stuff is between the parties involved and not news worthy.

[boondockdad]

When you're dealing with complicated vehicle dynamics
us non-engineer types have to start somewhere:
vehicle ratings

with that said,
even careful application of those ratings doesn't ensure (as we say in Dearborn) shiite won't happen... right?


How, why and prevention is all wild speculation
except, to some extent, the recommendations on 'taking it slow'

I don't think anybody would argue that slower will almost certainly eliminate catastrophic sway
My only exception to 'slow is safer' is;
not necessarily if you're impeding traffic...

Which leads me to: maybe some folks/rigs aren't meant to be on expressways?

[Ag&Au]

There are a few posts scattered throughout this thread (including my last one) which touch on the unmentionable subject in a towing accident. First of all I, and I'm guessing no one else here except the OP, has any real knowledge of the actual subject accident, so let's just acknowledge that we are talking about towing accidents in general.

There are some people who have personalities that should preclude them from being on the highway in a motor vehicle at all, let alone towing a trailer. These are the people that work hard on the few skills and limited regulation knowledge that are required to obtain a drivers license and never give it a second thought the rest of their lives, but perhaps learn a few things along the way, by having or causing accidents or getting tickets. These include those that feel that nothing can go wrong, and if it does it will be someone else's fault, because others are supposed to be watching out for them. As long as these people are on our highways everyday, the best we can do is drive defensively and watch out for them.

As far as tow vehicles and trailer sizes and hitch setups and tires , etc and etc, are concerned: These factors can always be mitigated by proper total tow vehicle, hitch, and trailer system design and setup. This can be properly done only by someone with considerable experience and knowledge.

To me it is silly to be arguing about tow vehicle size, because it is dependent on the rest of the components in the total system including the driver. It is also silly to try to guess the cause of an accident we know so little actual facts about.

These guessing games are lot of fun until it becomes a heated argument achieving nothing constructive except dividing people into camps based on a whole lot of opinion and very little factual evidence being presented.

There are certain arguments that make sense to me, but that doesn't make them fact.

The whole point of this is to state my opinion that the whole trailer towing experience is a complex systems of components, the two most important pieces both being human. Those are the designer and the user/driver. Unfortunately both of those components have personalities which can vary greatly and can make illogical and irrational decisions that make all the rest of the components worthless.

So my advice is to forget about all the tow vehicle debate. That can be engineered around. Let's figure how to deal with the humans who seem to find ways to screw up even the most well designed systems.

Ken

P.S. I just noticed Boondock Dad's post. It wasn't there when I composed this one. Some people can express a thought in a few words. Others like me require many.

[boondockdad]

[nickcrowhurst]

[QUOTE=boondockdad;1648044]I don't think anybody would argue that slower will almost certainly eliminate catastrophic sway QUOTE]

Your well-chosen "almost" reminds me of an occasion about 40 years ago. A couple of pals who were both experienced builders, engineers and general "can-do" guys asked if I could help collect a trailer and then load a 35 foot sailing yacht onto it with hydraulic jacks. We went to a derelict railroad yard to pick up the trailer. The trailer was massively heavy, probably two or three tons of 10" deep steel girder A-frame with twin axles, all to be towed by a 1960s era Ford Consul Corsair saloon, coupled on a 2" ball. (A most unsuitable tow vehicle for that trailer, of course) I saw there was zero hitch weight when it was coupled. I suggested to the driver that perhaps some weight on the hitch would be advisable. He told me it would be fine, as we were not going far, and we would go slowly.
The two guys were in the front seats, and I was in the rear with the 4 year old son of one of the guys.
We pulled out of the yard, and turned left onto the small country road. As we reached about walking speed, the trailer swung sideways across the road, then back the other way to go across the grass, then back again across the road. Vehicles coming towards us dived into the side. This time the trailer overtook us and swung the car to be facing in the opposite direction. I dived on top of the boy in the back seat (no seat belts in those days) to squash him down on the seat as the trailer went backwards through the hedge on our left side, dragging the car and occupants backwards through the hedge to end up in a field. No-one was hurt.
We got the rig back on the road, coupled up again, put as much nose weight on the ball as the car would bear, and VERY slowly crawled to our destination.
So, yes, "almost".
Nick.