Two Airstream rollovers in a month

[jcanavera]

Originally Posted by gpt

as far as the propane refrigerator, that is an abomination on the part of Airstream. your 7 prong plug already has a 12ga wire for passing current to the tow, more than sufficient to run a 3 way refrigerator. now maybe back in the 50s the auto generator could not keep up, but that is hardly the case today. this is just another 'wart' on the manufacturing of these trailers and one that can be a major safety hazard in accidents like the ones that started this thread. can you smell a law suite on this one?????

Quite honestly no. Problem is that unless the electrical connections are clean between the trailer and tow vehicle, and the proper gauge wire was run back to the tow vehicle plug you may have insufficient voltage which can cause the battery to discharge. I had this issue on my SOB and the problem was always an issue of the plug from the trailer becoming corroded. I use to carry some electrical contact cleaner and a small file to attempt to keep the contacts clean.

The danger on the road is a battery discharged will not provide enough power to apply full braking if the break away switch is activated. That worries me a lot and may be some thinking by many RV manufacturers to not supply 3 way units anymore.

Jack

[jcanavera]

One last consideration in the bigger is not always better discussion is that for some vehicles moving from 3/4 ton to one ton capacity vehicle might truly lower your towing capacity. Again I'll give an example of my GMC van. At the time gasoline were the only engines available. So a one ton van with the same 6 liter, 4.10 axle and HD transmission, was downgraded about 500 lbs in towing than the 3/4 ton, due to the heavier frame and suspension components. I don't think I've seen this in the 1/2 to 3/4 ton market. I've been told that some of the half ton pickups labeled HD, may be more equivalent to 3/4 ton models. It may be worth spending the time to consider the differences between the HD's and and their 3/4 ton equivalents if there is such a distinction in the manufacturer's offerings.

Jack

[AWCHIEF]

Is this big enough to pull my 23 Safari? Do not know anything about it but it sure is pretty.

[Moflash]

Originally Posted by jcanavera

One last consideration in the bigger is not always better discussion is that for some vehicles moving from 3/4 ton to one ton capacity vehicle might truly lower your towing capacity. Again I'll give an example of my GMC van. At the time gasoline were the only engines available. So a one ton van with the same 6 liter, 4.10 axle and HD transmission, was downgraded about 500 lbs in towing than the 3/4 ton, due to the heavier frame and suspension components. I don't think I've seen this in the 1/2 to 3/4 ton market. I've been told that some of the half ton pickups labeled HD, may be more equivalent to 3/4 ton models. It may be worth spending the time to consider the differences between the HD's and and their 3/4 ton equivalents if there is such a distinction in the manufacturer's offerings.

Jack

In a pickup you do not go down in payload capacity from a 3/4 ton 1 ton.

There are many major differences between between a 1/2 and a 3/4 or 1 ton such as hd tansmission,hd frame.larger brakes,upgraded E rated tires,Hd wheels.hd rear differential with hd axels,hd radiator, large displacement transmission and oil coolers all designed with towing in mind.

What people do not understand is that the F250 and the F350 have the same ride unloaded due to the fact that they share the same primary spring in the spring pack.There is a big differance in payload capacity though due to the added progressive spring capacity in the spring pack of the 1 ton.As you add more weight another leaf comes into play.Cost is about $600 more. Nowsome 3/4 tons have very little increase in payload capacity versus a HD 1/2 ton so you really don't gain much.

The people out there that say a 3/4 or 1 ton ride rough couldn't be farther from the truth,The Superduty F250 and F350 from Ford have drastically changed and ride smooth (and whisper quiet) unloaded and as smooth or better than a maxed out or at the limit of payload 1/2 ton pulling a large Airstream.

[pteck]

Originally Posted by gpt

as was immediately pointed out in the first post, overloaded past the GVWR in both cases was the likely cause. the poster then went on to explain that with a bigger tow vehicle, you get more GVWR head room. it really is that simple.

It's unfortunate that the general takeaway for most participating in the thread is the above. The situation and problem is more specific than that.

A bigger and heavier vehicle may only serve to give an additional sense of false security in said conditions. Others have already pointed out examples of 3/4 ton vehicles that have succumbed to the same fate. It would be worthwhile to understand the issue at hand.

slowmover pointed it out the best here - http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post1645458

It comes down to this: Brake Bias - the combined vehicle is dynamically unstable when the majority (or only) braking is done by the tow vehicle.

This arises in any braking situation, but particularly in a downhill scenario. Add speed and a turn into the equation, and the trailer will be trying to run the tow vehicle off the road. Not unlike a self induced pit maneuver.

Some key takeaways from this thread:

- Brake bias to the trailer is always important, but is especially important in a downhill scenarios.
- Understand the stability lost when the tow vehicle is doing the majority braking (i.e. engine braking).
- Brake and scrub speed BEFORE entering a turn Brake in a straight line when possible.
- Be ready to manually apply more trailer brakes to regain stability

[DHart]

I agree that speed, driving ability, and brake bias to the trailer are all very important factors. And they apply with equal importance, whether driving a 1/2 ton 3/4 ton, or 1 ton. AND, in addition to that:

Originally Posted by gpt

as was immediately pointed out in the first post, overloaded past the GVWR in both cases was the likely cause. the poster then went on to explain that with a bigger tow vehicle, you get more GVWR head room. it really is that simple.

when you choose a Mercedes SUV or a 1/2 ton PU, you had better be paying very close attention to your load limits. having a 3/4 or 1 ton PU gives you way more 'head room' in load capacity.

personally, i don't drive slalom courses with my tow and don't intend to start, neat marketing gimmick is all that was.

so unless you are extremely careful, each and every time you load up and go, it is going to be far easier to exceed the GVWR for your SUV or 1/2 ton tow vehicle than you think.

that is the simple message here, nothing more.

Well said... this IS the salient point.

I was quite surprised at how fast the cargo capacity of most 1/2 ton vehicles gets gobbled up, quickly and easily putting the rig at or beyond the weight limits.

Adding up tongue weight, then the weight of the people, dog (s), camp furniture/recliners, generator(s)/fuel tank, BBQ, bicycle(s), tools, raft/boat, extra provisions, and/or whatever else a family might want to pack along and comparing that total to the cargo capacity limit of the average 1/2 ton is an eye-opener.

Plenty of small vehicles have the power to PULL the weight of an Airstream. But that's not the important part to focus on. Handling the weight of the trailer and, especially, the total weight of all the cargo... and stopping it is of much greater importance than can the TV pull the trailer.

Certainly the 1/2 ton can work for people, depending on their unique needs, but having a larger safety buffer of cargo weight capability is nice, if not essential, again, depending on individual needs.

[DHart]

Originally Posted by Moflash

The people out there that say a 3/4 or 1 ton ride rough couldn't be farther from the truth,The Superduty F250 and F350 from Ford have drastically changed and ride smooth (and whisper quiet) unloaded and as smooth or better than a maxed out or at the limit of payload 1/2 ton pulling a large Airstream.

In addition, the 2015 Denali HD (3/4 ton w/Duramax/Allison) trucks have a wonderfully nice ride and are whisper quiet, as well. The best of the new trucks and diesels are quite surprisingly luxurious, comfortable, and quiet.

[m.hony]

The modern 1 tons ride luxury car smooth and quiet.


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[Rocinante]

Reading this thread is like watching an Airstream rollover.

[J. Morgan]

I can comfortably and legally tow my 31 footer with 15" LT tires and a Hensley at 80 mph with my 1/2 ton SWB 4WD truck..

Did I miss any hot button issues?

(Edit; while my electric fridge is running off my inverter)

[John&Vicki]

I don't have anything to add to the religious aspect of the discussion, but I do have (what is to me anyway) a legitimate question. I'm relatively new to pulling an Airstream - 2 years, 12,000 miles - but I have many years of experience pulling large boats. Plus I've raced Porsches. Different circumstances but in both cases you learn to save brakes.

I've always been paranoid about sharp downhills and have gone slowly, downshifting to control my speed. But I have noticed that on a curvy road that my cruise control seems to do a good job of controlling speed on it's on.

When I'm on on road with intermittent curves and speed advisory signs I like to use the cruise control, adjust it to the suggested speed on the sign before the curve, and let it take over. Before I had my present vehicle, I thought that cruise control controlled speed solely by the engine, but that isn't the case with this vehicle. The car brake lights go on (I can see them reflected against the trailer) and the trailer brakes engage (the indicator light changes color). And it happens pretty decisively. Almost as if the car is doing everything automatically. I haven't tried this on long steep descents, preferred to stay with downshifting, but I'm thinking it would be effective and I'm going to experiment on a stretch of road that I'm familiar with.

Is anyone familiar with the mechanics of cruise control?

Cheers,
John

[rostam]

Originally Posted by John&Vicki

I don't have anything to add to the religious aspect of the discussion, but I do have (what is to me anyway) a legitimate question. I'm relatively new to pulling an Airstream - 2 years, 12,000 miles - but I have many years of experience pulling large boats. Plus I've raced Porsches. Different circumstances but in both cases you learn to save brakes.

I've always been paranoid about sharp downhills and have gone slowly, downshifting to control my speed. But I have noticed that on a curvy road that my cruise control seems to do a good job of controlling speed on it's on.

When I'm on on road with intermittent curves and speed advisory signs I like to use the cruise control, adjust it to the suggested speed on the sign before the curve, and let it take over. Before I had my present vehicle, I thought that cruise control controlled speed solely by the engine, but that isn't the case with this vehicle. The car brake lights go on (I can see them reflected against the trailer) and the trailer brakes engage (the indicator light changes color). And it happens pretty decisively. Almost as if the car is doing everything automatically. I haven't tried this on long steep descents, preferred to stay with downshifting, but I'm thinking it would be effective and I'm going to experiment on a stretch of road that I'm familiar with.

Is anyone familiar with the mechanics of cruise control?

Cheers,
John

One of the forum members said he towed his Airstream from California to Alaska and back with a GL 350 and almost exclusively used the cruise control lever to control the speed up and down the hills and for the rest of the trip. As you said the CC does all the downshifting and braking.

[jcanavera]

I guess it depends on your vehicle make and vintage. My GMC van is circa 2003, my Honda 2007, and my Hyundai is 2012. All have basic cruise controls whose programming is built to get the speed up to your setting. If you pick up speed they will reduce throttle, but none of them do any braking.

Jack

[John&Vicki]

After my post I did some searching and found some information on the cruise control on my TV, which is a Mercedes ML500. I don't know how many manufacturers have it, but evidently Mercedes was the first to introduce "intelligent cruise control" which utilizes both the engine and the brakes to control speed. I have always been aware that the cruise control did a great job of controlling speed but I until this trip to the Oregon Coast (came here to Cape Blanco to escape the 100 degree heat in Bend, now we're freezing) I had not realized that it used the brakes effectively as well.

I was coming through curves following the Umpqua River when I used the cruise control to go around a 35mph curve in the shade and noticed that the brake lights were reflected on the trailer. So then I started experimenting, reduced speed closer to the curves and noticing how quickly things slowed down. The next thing I noticed was that the trailer brake controller was engaging. A really, really neat discovery. I've always used the cruise control extensively, almost like a hand throttle, but I had no idea it was so sophisticated. It's not only convenient, I can see how it can increase my margin of safety in many different conditions.

Cheers,
John

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by Rocinante

Reading this thread is like watching an Airstream rollover.

I am pretty sure that nearly everyone posting in this thread truly believes what they saying and are not trolling. The problem for me to figure out which ones are truly wrong and which are wrong by virtue of not agreeing with me.

Ken

[Moflash]

What is your tow vehicle?


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[jcanavera]

Problem with cruise controls is that they don't drive with economy in mind. I'll see a hill coming up, I'll gain a little speed. As I climb I'll back off the accelerator, this keeps me from downshifting and I'll get to the top with minimal loss of speed and still in the same gear. With CC on I'll lose speed and the CC will keep pushing down on the gas to hold speed and will eventually cause a downshift. You can really suck gas like that.

Jack

[John&Vicki]

Originally Posted by jcanavera

Problem with cruise controls is that they don't drive with economy in mind. I'll see a hill coming up, I'll gain a little speed. As I climb I'll back off the accelerator, this keeps me from downshifting and I'll get to the top with minimal loss of speed. With CC on I'll lose speed and the CC will keep pushing down on the gas to force downshift. You can really suck gas like that.

Jac

I agree with that. I go manual up hills. I'm never in a hurry and I'd rather slow down and save the revs and the gas.

One other problem with cruise control, at least with mine. If I set it at a much higher speed than I'm going it accelerates like it thinks I've just challenged some one to a drag race. I increase it slowly and incrementedly for that reason.

One more comfortable thing about cruise control - I always know I'm going the speed limit (unless it's 80). When I enter an area with decreasing limits I just click it down.

Cheers,
John

[jcanavera]

I go down to Branson on occasion and those hills on US 65 can be a challenge. I've learned that by gearing down early on a climb, I can come to top at a much better speed and possibly at a higher gear. If I let the computer make the decision, I'll find myself in second gear going much slower. Downhill can be equally challenging and I've occasionally tapped the trailer brakes manually as we are descending, to burn off a little speed and will gear down out of OD as we start down the crest. Dependent on the slope down without curves ahead, I'll go back to OD to allow for some speed build up as we start up the oncoming hill.

Jack

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by Moflash

What is your tow vehicle


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Whom are you directing this question to?

If me (since you posted right after me), It is a 2003 diesel Dodge Ram 2500 Laramie with Quad Cab, short bed, and 4X4. It has a cab height fiberglass canopy.

Ken