Two Airstream rollovers in a month

[timhortons]

another self-congratulatory "I have a huge truck thread"

seems very trollish to me

I'll bite anyways:

The physics state that SUVs can roll over;especially if it's an OJ ford bronco with firestone tires; And if you have so many bricks in the back of your pickup that the front wheels are in the air, it will not steer very well.

You can adjust the gain curve on your brake controller to make it more aggressive than the curve on your TV brakes, good luck finding one that fires "before" you hit the TV brakes.

[xrvr]

SUV and huge trucks are two different things. Hasn't been a bronco made in years.our job is done here!

[ROBERT CROSS]

"good luck finding one that fires "before" you hit the TV brakes."

There are BC's available that activate when the brake lights come on.
Try touching your brakes ever so lightly 'til the lights come on and decide for yourself if thats "before" you start slowing down.....it is for our TruControl, the AS brakes always come on first.

POI....how often do you follow someone where the brk lights never go off.

Bob

[NWRVR]

Originally Posted by Isuzusweet

Surprisingly enough this is very much a myth. Older cars did have large bodies made of mild steel, lots of space around engines and such, and a very limited option list.

By comparison, today's modern cars are built with lots of high tenstile steel, multi airbags, lots of options and the corresponding wiring harnesses to power everything.

For example a 1976 Buick Century, which surprisingly was rated as a mid size car but was a body on frame, solid rear axle, seats six vehicle weighs the same as a modern Hyundai Gensis Coupe, half the size. A Hyundai Santa Fe mid size SUV weighs the same as a full size 70's Caprice Classic or an 80's full size FJ60 Toyota Landcruiser.

I'm often shocked at the growing curb weights of modern vehicles and can't seem to get my head around that my 2003 4DR Chevy Tracker V6 body on frame, solid rear axle 4x4 weighs almost 600lbs LESS than that Hyundai Gensis Coupe. The Chevy doesn't have a 8sp auto, ABS, VDC, Navigation, back up sensors, 10 airbags and the list goes on; but if you were to ask anyone which one was heavier, the Chevy would be picked.

Cheers
Tony

Our 2008 Range Rover HSE (L322) weighs 6,100 with two people and half full fuel without cargo.

[perryg114]

I think that the stability discussion here is limited to roll over. It is hard to roll a vehicle unless a tire blows, excessive speed etc. Yes a truck with 4000 lbs of stuff in it is more likely to roll over but much less likely to do a 180 in the rain. Empty trucks lack directional stability when the rear end brakes loose because of wheel spin, braking etc. There are three axes to consider for stability, roll, yaw, and pitch. You need to worry about the first two. An empty truck is unstable about the yaw axis and a full one is unstable about the roll axis. ALL of my problems with empty trucks concern the yaw axis stability and not the roll axis. If I had roll axis problems, chances are I would not be here to tell about it. A Truck pulling a trailer with nothing in the bed is probably as bad as an empty truck not pulling anything. With an empty truck the trailer is controlling the weight on the back wheels making the truck less stable in yaw and that leads to roll over when the whole thing gets unstable.

Perry

Originally Posted by Chuck

These statements seem to conflict.

I completely disagree with the first one. It takes no talent what-so-ever. The only thing less stable than an empty pickup is a full one. In truck driver school, they taught us that "heavy and/or high" is bad, and the more you have of either, the less stable the vehicle will be (and also, longer time/distance to stop.).

The report in the IP stated that one of the vehicles was an older Explorer--these were particularly unstable. Remember the Firestone tire debacle from a few years back? It was a particularly bad situation because when you get a blow-out in one of these vehicles, the result is often catastrophic...practically guaranteed to roll over at highway speed. If it was happening in your typical sedans, it wouldn't have been such a big deal.

[Ag&Au]

Originally Posted by HoffmanP

Too many people think pulling the hill is the challenge. The reality is a lot of RV accidents result from people going too fast downhill when momentum becomes your enemy. Too much momentum with a trailer heavier than the tow vehicle is a recipe for disaster. Gear down and go slow off of mountain passes, especially out West where the grades are longer and your brakes can burn up before you get to the bottom.

I agree with you. There is one thing that I always stress when my spouse is driving and we come to a significant downgrade. That is, "You must be at the slowest speed you feel you will need to maintain and the lowest gear you will need to be in BEFORE you start down the hill". It is much easier to speed up a bit later if you feel it is prudent than it is to slow later if it becomes necessary. It is so easy to get yourself in a situation where you need to downshift and discover you are going too fast to downshift without over revving the engine. Also it is important to be sure you are getting a significant amount of your braking from the trailer when braking is necessary.

Ken

[Kilroy]

Met Jerome and Vera 2 weeks before at a vintage rally in Horicon, WI. One of the conversations with Jerome was using his truck as a TV.

When I first heard about the accident, I suspected his Spartan didn't have enough tongue weight. He had restored/rehabbed trailer. Accident happened on a straight stretch of road.

After the accident, was told by some friends coming back from Back to the 50s car show, where Jerome was, that they passed him on the freeway and the "trailer was all over the road".

Originally Posted by Sprouty

This hits close to home a timely reminder. I did not know the couple involved but they lived not to far from me. We had mutual friends and everyone that knew them said they were great people "living the dream" with their vintage Studebaker and Spartan Camper.

"MENOMONIE -- An elderly Baraboo woman died Sunday afternoon after a vintage Studebaker pickup and camper she was traveling in ran off I-94 and overturned near eastbound MM 36.

The State Patrol reported that Vera M. Scoles, 85, of Baraboo, was the passenger in a 1951 pickup being driven by Jerome L. Thiessen, 74, also of Baraboo. Thiessen apparently lost control of the truck and the 1948 camper trailer in-tow and rolled into the eastbound ditch.
Theissen sustained life-threatening injuries and was transported by air ambulance to Luther-Mayo hospital in Eau Claire.
The accident was reported at 1:54 p.m. Sunday. Dunn County sheriff's deputies and Menomonie firefighters assisted at the scene.

The couple was thought to have been en route home from St. Paul, Minn., where thousands of car afficionados had gathered for three days at the Minnesota State Fairgrounds for the annual Minnesota Street Rod Assocation Back to the Fifties car rally.
The crash remains under investigation."

[Gnorts]

Originally Posted by gmw photos

Prodigy P2 and P3 have what is called "boost" options. You can set them easily for different levels of initial boost. As soon as you touch the brake pedal, actually as soon as the brake lights come on, the controller sends power to the trailer brakes. By setting the boost to a higher level, you can effectively make the trailer brakes come on slightly before the truck brakes. I have a P2 in my Nissan. It works well. Some folks don't like the initial grab though, because you can feel it, they may have the impression something is not right. For those folks, simply pressing the button on the controller will disable the feature.

We have a P3 in the Tundra, and the boost setting works well. It is triggered by the brake light switch, and is immediate, before the pedal has any effect on the truck's brakes. It has 3 settings, which vary the amount of initial voltage sent to the trailer brakes. Regardless of the setting, the trailer brakes will lead the truck brakes. It is irritating at low speeds in city traffic, since the trailer will "jerk" on the truck at the lightest pedal pressure. It's easy to turn off in traffic, and easy to reset when on the road. So far, it has provided us with controllable descents on steep grades. But - importantly - as has been mentioned, it's essential to start the descent at the lowest speed that will be needed.

[m.hony]

There is a forum member who rolled an Airstream and a Duramax/Allison 2500. Just this week I saw a Ford 250 in the body shop due to a camper rollover. So much for the 2500 is safer than the 1500.
I do occasionally feel the 8,800# behind me pushing on me, like the light just went yellow and there is a police car at the intersection-
The anti-lock brakes come into play-


Sent from my iPhone using Airstream Forums

[pteck]

Originally Posted by slowmover

A grade descent is the most dangerous piece of road for a combined vehicle.

The trailer is always trying to pass the tow vehicle. It is traveling faster.

Tow vehicle braking (as with an exhaust brake) WITHOUT stronger application of the trailer brakes sets up the rig for loss of control.

The lash up now has slack in it.

Add strong wind gusts, or a close passing semi, and one has a prescription for disaster.

TT and TV design still trumps weight and size for given vehicles as regards resistance to roll over. To say otherwise is foolish.

Proper speed in the proper gear and TT brakes leading in application force is the prescription. Learn to use the brake control override.

To a lesser extent the same phenomenon exists in exiting an Interstate and is UNIVERSALLY ignored by RVers: the posted exit speed is to reduce that rolling force to a minimum needed to re-accelerate onto the service road.

Put the tension back into the lash-up.

Thank you for this.

I'd encourage everyone else to read and re-read this until they fully digest it. Lots of postulating in this thread about COG, sway, engine brakes, etc... but until you understand the above, the others are only minor variables and distractions to understanding the fundamental dynamic pointed out above.

Effectively, the whole TV/trailer setup is less dynamically stable, in the above condition.

Think about balancing a pendulum upside down. Trailer being the pendulum trying to get past the tow vehicle that is balancing the pendulum on its hitch.

Even the most beefy of tow vehicles, given enough external variables, speed included, are susceptible.

[Jim & Susan]

Does anybody know how one of those UHaul car trailer carrier whatchamacallit things work (for braking and balancing). I have to haul our SIL's Chevy Colorado on one of 'em from Ft Campbell to Ashville this weekend. There are some pretty good grades on I-40 going into Ashville and I want to make sure I'm set up correctly.

I think the UHaul uses centifigal braking. That worries me some.

Thoughts?

Jim

Edit: towing with an F250 V10 Super Duty. Plenty of truck.

[jcanavera]

Many of the U-Haul trailers use surge brakes. Those operate on the principal that when you step on the brakes on the tow vehicle, the inertia of the trailer pushes the trailer towards the tow vehicle. The coupler area of the trailer slides and activates the brakes based on how much force the trailer exerts towards the tow vehicle. It's really a low level braking system. If you get into a sway it's pretty hard to pull out of it. I once saw a little U-Hall single axle go into a sway. I remember the driver put on the brakes, and the last sway was pretty violent which slid the car off the road with the trailer and car staying upright. I've never seen an auto dolly sway though. Are you getting a dolly or the flat trailer where all 4 wheels on the trailer? On the latter I've always seen the cars facing forward. This keeps the weight on the hitch. Hopefully the trailer and tow vehicle stay level. I have no idea what kind of hitch weight is present.

Jack

[jcl]

Originally Posted by Jim & Susan

Does anybody know how one of those UHaul car trailer carrier whatchamacallit things work (for braking and balancing). I have to haul our SIL's Chevy Colorado on one of 'em from Ft Campbell to Ashville this weekend. There are some pretty good grades on I-40 going into Ashville and I want to make sure I'm set up correctly.

I think the UHaul uses centifigal braking. That worries me some.

Thoughts?

Jim

Edit: towing with an F250 V10 Super Duty. Plenty of truck.

The ones I have rented used surge brakes.

Proper loading is key. Locate the vehicle on the trailer to have 15% or so tongue weight. Not too hard with a small vehicle, harder with a longer one. You may have to load the vehicle facing rearwards on the trailer. Ensure it is properly secured. And go slow. Many U Haul trailers have maximum speed labels of 45 MPH, not sure about the car carriers.

[Jim & Susan]

Centrifugal. I gotta get a better spell checker. Cause I cannot spell, regardless of Miss Moss's best efforts in the forth grade.

Jim

[slowmover]

The UHaul 12x6x6 is one of my favorites. I get 19-mpg empty and 18-mpg loaded in pulling one.

Surge brakes work fine. But study the subject first. Boat trailers use this and there is info online.

My experience with UHaul is that I have to stand over them about:

- surge brake fluid clean and full. They are to demonstrate correct function (I usually hook up and pass by tech in their lot to verify). With a higher speed pass, I should be able to feel them engage. There is a slight delay that is normal.

- chains properly wrapped.

- with a flashlight, you and tech inspect undercarriage from both sides. Mainly looking at springs.

- lug nut torque value to be checked in my presence.

- tire pressure same.

- ck of all signal lamp functions.

- I add plenty of grease to ball

Their website is good about how to load for tongue weight. Find elsewhere the bathroom scale method of weighing same. (You'll want wheel chocks and something to serve as tongue stand). It isn't necessary, but call it peace of mind.

The trailer design itself is excellent. Note that the wheel face center is outside the trailer walls; that the spring to axle attach points are congruent with walls. The trailer is inside what matters. (Torsion axle pushes this out to wheel face).

This is a VERY stable design for leaf sprung. Actually, the ONLY way to make a conventional leaf sprung trailer stable vis a vis suspension. The way SOBs should be built.

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by jcanavera

........Are you getting a dolly or the flat trailer where all 4 wheels on the trailer? On the latter I've always seen the cars facing forward. This keeps the weight on the hitch. Hopefully the trailer and tow vehicle stay level. I have no idea what kind of hitch weight is present.

Jack

Thanks Jack. It's the full sized trailer with two axles, four tires on the ground on the UHaul. I'll bring my tape measure and look at the front of the truck before and after. 'Bout the only way I have to measure it.

Jim

[Jeph]

Your right about preferring a 3/4 ton truck. I woudn't want to tow with anything less, I prefer a 1 ton. I tow my 25' with a 1-3/4 ton truck.

[Jim & Susan]

Originally Posted by slowmover

The UHaul 12x6x6 is one of my favorites. I get 19-mpg empty and 18-mpg loaded in pulling one.

Surge brakes work fine. But study the subject first. Boat trailers use this and there is info online.

My experience with UHaul is that I have to stand over them about:

- surge brake fluid clean and full. They are to demonstrate correct function (I usually hook up and pass by tech in their lot to verify). With a higher speed pass, I should be able to feel them engage. There is a slight delay that is normal.

- chains properly wrapped.

- with a flashlight, you and tech inspect undercarriage from both sides. Mainly looking at springs.

- lug nut torque value to be checked in my presence.

- tire pressure same.

- ck of all signal lamp functions.

- I add plenty of grease to ball

Their website is good about how to load for tongue weight. Find elsewhere the bathroom scale method of weighing same. (You'll want wheel chocks and something to serve as tongue stand). It isn't necessary, but call it peace of mind.

The trailer design itself is excellent. Note that the wheel face center is outside the trailer walls; that the spring to axle attach points are congruent with walls. The trailer is inside what matters. (Torsion axle pushes this out to wheel face).

This is a VERY stable design for leaf sprung. Actually, the ONLY way to make a conventional leaf sprung trailer stable vis a vis suspension. The way SOBs should be built.

Wow, fabulous info. And a lot of common sense all rolled up in one post. Thanks.

Jim

[pathfinder2]

Originally Posted by AWCHIEF

You say one was a rental package so add to the equation possible inexperienced tow vehicle operators.

ditto

[ROBERTSUNRUS]

Hi, Too fast, down hill, and lack of driver ability. PERIOD.

I towed for ten years without a magic hitch and with "P" rated tires that my Lincoln was rated to tow with from the factory with the factory tow package. A half ton SUV pulling a 25' Airstream through 14 western states and three western provinces. In snow, on ice, and over the Colorado Rockies.

Your special hitch, super tires, your tire monitors, Etc Etc Etc , even a Kenworth towing a Bambi won't make up for a bad driver. If you are scared and lack the needed skills, all of this supersized magic won't help you.