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Old 07-10-2015, 01:08 PM   #351
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I will be continually baffled by a dealer that advocates the use of a passenger car over vehicle designed to tow. No matter how you spruce it up, it's still a purse made from a sow's ear. It's one thing to add an air bag to a pickup truck, an extra tranny cooler or the like, but to take a regular passenger car and add a 2" hitch plus using mathematics X+Y=Z, and call it a valid tow rig is beyond laughable.
I will continually be baffled by people so readily admitting that they are baffled. Is this a call for help to understand how these smaller tow vehicles work? If so I am sure there are those here who will be patient enough to explain it to you.

Hen
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Old 07-10-2015, 01:31 PM   #352
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I will be continually baffled by a dealer that advocates the use of a passenger car over vehicle designed to tow. No matter how you spruce it up, it's still a purse made from a sow's ear. It's one thing to add an air bag to a pickup truck, an extra tranny cooler or the like, but to take a regular passenger car and add a 2" hitch plus using mathematics X+Y=Z, and call it a valid tow rig is beyond laughable.
Makes you wonder how Airstreams got popular in the first place given that they were pretty much all towed with passenger vehicles for decades. Must have been wholesale carnage in the Airstream world in those days!

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Old 07-10-2015, 01:36 PM   #353
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...Must have been wholesale carnage in the Airstream world in those days!...
not to mention--no seatbelts!! {gasp!}
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Old 07-10-2015, 01:48 PM   #354
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Thanks for the reporting on these accidents, lest we become complacent from videos of a Porshe doing a slalom course towing an Airstream.

As an Engineer and Manager of Technical Risk Management (happily retired), I've employed root cause analysis (TapRoot) in investigation of many industrial (petroleum industry) incidents, and would caution against jumping to conclusions that only focus on size of equipment. The root cause of an incident is often not among the first assumptions. Tow vehicle capability, condition and setup, speed, road and weather conditions, driver skill, driver distractions (eg; use of cell phone) are among the many factors that an investigator would consider. One has to be specific and detailed.

Personally, I've towed our FC23FB for over 44,000 miles behind a Grand Cherokee Diesel (2006 replaced by 2014) in all conditions, and feel quite confident in it's capabilities. Would I give the keys to Clark Griswold for a family vacation? No.

I recently helped a relative by driving a U-haul truck towing a car trailer for 500 miles, Houston, TX to 'Podunk' MS. No sway control, surge brakes, no questions of the proposed driver's qualification at the rental counter. I'm amazed that there aren't many more towing accidents than I've seen along the highways.

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Old 07-10-2015, 01:48 PM   #355
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Where is the GCWR on that tag?

How much weight will an Airstream equipped with WD put on a truck?

Enough that a 1/2 ton is insufficient?

Even with a fair amount of stuff in the box?

The rear axle of my 1/2 ton only weighs about 3,000 pounds with my trailer attached, (and loaded with the stuff I carry) and not to mention how much less my truck weighs than a 1 ton diesel...
Good point.
Why isn't the GCWR listed on that federally mandated label?

?

Just want to mention two things; first, if the TW on a 34' really is small enough not to exceed the GVWR, then wouldn't you be facing a potential catastrophic sway like Nick's scenario? Long, heavy trailer.. no TW.

Second, IMHO, I think a 1/2T pickup truck and a minivan are in two very different categories. I've driven both. Changing the brakes on our Dodge Caravan, the suspension components looked like a go-cart compared to the RAM1500. Not to mention chassis, drivetrain, tranny....
Personally, I think modern 1/2T pickups are more than adequate. I was stunned by the performance of my Dad's Ecoboost F-150 pulling our 30' S/O. Very well mannered.

Look, I'm not throwing any rocks.
Like I said before, I ain't no engineer...
just sayin' I'd love to see CAT slips and a door label for that minivan+34' setup
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Old 07-10-2015, 02:04 PM   #356
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Good point.
Why isn't the GCWR listed on that federally mandated label?
Here is my guess. (not even an educated one)

There are so many variables (hitching systems and type of trailer primarily) that enter into towing, the specified weight would have to have many ifs and buts about it. It would need to be a worst case scenario number. It is simpler for the government and manufacturers to ignore the subject. I am surprised that they even touch on towing as much as they do.

They'd have to have an internal forum where they could all argue about it like we do.

Ken
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Old 07-10-2015, 03:31 PM   #357
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incident investigation?

------snip----As an Engineer and Manager of Technical Risk Management -----snip----The root cause of an incident is often not among the first assumptions. Tow vehicle capability, condition and setup, speed, road and weather conditions, driver skill, driver distractions (eg; use of cell phone) are among the many factors that an investigator would consider. ------snip----- I've towed our FC23FB for over 44,000 miles behind a Grand Cherokee ----snip ------


Joe, thanks!

Is there anything learned from the 23/SUV towing experience that might have been an issue in either of these two incidents?

Pat
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Old 07-10-2015, 04:56 PM   #358
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Makes you wonder how Airstreams got popular in the first place given that they were pretty much all towed with passenger vehicles for decades. Must have been wholesale carnage in the Airstream world in those days!

Cheers,
John
When you stop and think about it you'll realize that the full size cars of the day ( 40's, 50's, 60's & 70's ) had the same capabilities of the then 1/2 ton trucks .

Back in the day the Airstreams were smaller and lighter then today.

Today's cars , minivans and small suvs don't have the same capabilities as yesterdays 1/2 ton P.U.'s , and today's Airstreams are larger and heavier .

BTW todays 1/2 ton P.U.'s are almost as capable as 80's & 90's 3/4 ton P.U.'s. and in some cases more so.
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Old 07-10-2015, 05:51 PM   #359
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Today's SUV's being used to tow Airstreams weigh as much as 1/2 ton pickups, some with higher torque diesel engines, larger brakes, lower center of gravity, and fully independent suspensions.

The so-called minivans are not all that mini these days and have excellent stability features compared to pickups, and have higher payload ratings than many 1/2 tons.

And the unibody construction is stiffer, no frame flex the pickups suffer with. No bouncing, loose differential to try to control as well.
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Old 07-10-2015, 06:08 PM   #360
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I'm not sure how much of this discussion is serious, so forgive me if I get sucked in. A cloud is not part of the air. (It is part of the atmosphere though.) Air is a collection of gases. A cloud is very small particles of condensed (liquid) water suspended in the air. Gaseous water (water vapor) is invisible.

There ia a possibility I guess (not likely though, that all of this has changed in the 50 years since I received my degree in Atmospheric Sciences.

It is still a fact though that humid air is less dense than dry air.

http://www.weatherquestions.com/What_is_water_vapor.htm

Ken

P.S. on the Obscure (foggy) chance that this post is total uneducated BS, it will have plenty of company in this thread.
why do these microdroplets sometimes clump together into a cloud rather than disperse ? is it electrostatic ? is there a surface tension like area at the boundary of the cloud ? not going to get my towing questions answered here.
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Old 07-10-2015, 06:13 PM   #361
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Good question. Let's explore that!
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Old 07-10-2015, 06:16 PM   #362
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Way too many variables to say "ohh improper tow vehicle capability" did it.
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Old 07-10-2015, 06:39 PM   #363
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Can anyone explain how Airstream2Go gets away allowing folks from an insurance stand point rent Airstreams that are 27 feet and towed with a Tahoe. Since we've established in this thread, this is a death trap.
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Old 07-10-2015, 06:41 PM   #364
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Good point.
Why isn't the GCWR listed on that federally mandated label?

?

Just want to mention two things; first, if the TW on a 34' really is small enough not to exceed the GVWR, then wouldn't you be facing a potential catastrophic sway like Nick's scenario? Long, heavy trailer.. no TW.

Second, IMHO, I think a 1/2T pickup truck and a minivan are in two very different categories. I've driven both. Changing the brakes on our Dodge Caravan, the suspension components looked like a go-cart compared to the RAM1500. Not to mention chassis, drivetrain, tranny....
Personally, I think modern 1/2T pickups are more than adequate. I was stunned by the performance of my Dad's Ecoboost F-150 pulling our 30' S/O. Very well mannered.

Look, I'm not throwing any rocks.
Like I said before, I ain't no engineer...
just sayin' I'd love to see CAT slips and a door label for that minivan+34' setup
> Why isn't the GCWR listed on that federally mandated label?
because it's not federally mandated to be on the label

I can't speak to the suspension odds and ends on the grand caravan(which is the cheapest of the minivans commonly used to tow), but I think a minivan has better towing dynamics than a pickup truck by default.

Early automatic trannies on the minivans did have reliability problems, as did early mercedes MLs. You'll note that the manufacturerers have kept the bleeding edge DSGs and 9 speed autos out of the minivans because once they got the bugs ironed out it's not worth messing with on these lower volume vehicles.

SUVs and Pickup trucks are the cash cows, so they get all the latest toys to reliability test on the customers.
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