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Old 07-03-2015, 10:44 AM   #155
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Originally Posted by m.hony View Post
The 2011 Ford E350 Superduty (one ton) has an 8,800# GVW and 10,000# towing capacity. A 2006 Chevy Express 2500 (3/4 ton) has a GVW of 8,600# and a towing capacity of 10,000#. The Express handles better because it has a longer wheelbase and more modern steering, braking and suspension.
My Tundra (1/2 ton) has bigger brakes and a higher towing capacity than either of those.
The ratings are often fluff and puff, advertising, smoke and mirrors, marketing, etc.


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You are comparing two vans to your Toyota pickup???
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Old 07-03-2015, 11:37 AM   #156
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Yep. It is rated 1/2 ton but with bigger brakes and more towing capacity.
My point is that the Ford 1 ton and the GM 1 ton are about the same.
The Ford Econoline 1 ton is 8,800# GVW.
The GM Express/Savana 1 ton is 9,600# GVW.
My point is the advertising hype, etc. of the manufacturers' ratings.
My point is that you don't have to have a 3/4 ton or 1 ton to safely tow an Airstream trailer (or an SOB under 10,000#).
My trailer ready to camp is 8,800#.
The advertised towing capacity, albeit inflated, of the Tundra is 11,400#. I don't know what the real capacity, but it handles the 8,800# just fine.
I can't tell a nickel's worth of difference from my Tundra to a Duramax/Allison, and I've towed a cargo trailer and a car hauling trailer (in addition to travel trailers) all over the whole United States.
A nod to the half ton:
"Push/pull" on the steering wheel for control is easier in a half ton- it gets there quicker with less push/pull-
I can't really say any one rides any smoother or tougher, because we have some one ton duallies in the fleet that ride luxury car smooth.
If I am a fleet manager over a fleet of 300 GM HD trucks, and I still choose a Toyota, either I'm convinced or just plain stoopid/dumb as a rock/ dim as a 2 watt light bulb-
I do have repair records for all the GM and Ford trucks in the fleet. I also have repair records for my Tundra.
No GM or Ford product has as big a back seat or rear doors.
As for as comparing a pickup and vans- the components are mostly the same within a particular manufacturer- the Silverado and Sierra share many components with the Express/Savana.


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Old 07-03-2015, 11:37 AM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m.hony View Post
The 2011 Ford E350 Superduty (one ton) has an 8,800# GVW and 10,000# towing capacity. A 2006 Chevy Express 2500 (3/4 ton) has a GVW of 8,600# and a towing capacity of 10,000#. The Express handles better because it has a longer wheelbase and more modern steering, braking and suspension.
My Tundra (1/2 ton) has bigger brakes and a higher towing capacity than either of those.
The ratings are often fluff and puff, advertising, smoke and mirrors, marketing, etc.


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Tow rating many times are a product of engine, rear axle, and transmission options. So for example my 3/4 ton GMC Savana van had tow ratings all the way from 6,500 lbs to 9,900 lbs. all the 3/4 ton GMC vans had the same frames, wheels and brakes. The key was the engine, tranny, and rear axle choices. I went for the max which resulted in the 6 liter gas engine and the 4.10 rear axle along with the HD transmission.

I owned a half ton Chevy van prior and the upgrade to the 3/4 ton GMC was very noticeable relative to handling and its ability to handle dips and uneven pavement. Ride quality in the half ton while not towing is much better. When towing the 3/4 ton is more comfortable.

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Old 07-03-2015, 11:55 AM   #158
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Originally Posted by n2916s View Post
I have no idea what caused these accidents but the immediate assumption that it was the size of the TV is speculative at best.

as was immediately pointed out in the first post, overloaded past the GVWR in both cases was the likely cause. the poster then went on to explain that with a bigger tow vehicle, you get more GVWR head room. it really is that simple.

when you choose a Mercedes SUV or a 1/2 ton PU, you had better be paying very close attention to your load limits. having a 3/4 or 1 ton PU gives you way more 'head room' in load capacity.

personally, i don't drive slalom courses with my tow and don't intend to start, neat marketing gimmick is all that was.

so unless you are extremely careful, each and every time you load up and go, it is going to be far easier to exceed the GVWR for your SUV or 1/2 ton tow vehicle than you think.

that is the simple message here, nothing more.

as far as the propane refrigerator, that is an abomination on the part of Airstream. your 7 prong plug already has a 12ga wire for passing current to the tow, more than sufficient to run a 3 way refrigerator. now maybe back in the 50s the auto generator could not keep up, but that is hardly the case today. this is just another 'wart' on the manufacturing of these trailers and one that can be a major safety hazard in accidents like the ones that started this thread. can you smell a law suite on this one?????
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Old 07-03-2015, 01:01 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by jcanavera View Post
Tow rating many times are a product of engine, rear axle, and transmission options. So for example my 3/4 ton GMC Savana van had tow ratings all the way from 6,500 lbs to 9,900 lbs. all the 3/4 ton GMC vans had the same frames, wheels and brakes. The key was the engine, tranny, and rear axle choices. I went for the max which resulted in the 6 liter gas engine and the 4.10 rear axle along with the HD transmission.

I owned a half ton Chevy van prior and the upgrade to the 3/4 ton GMC was very noticeable relative to handling and its ability to handle dips and uneven pavement. Ride quality in the half ton while not towing is much better. When towing the 3/4 ton is more comfortable.

Jack

This is true.
The 2011 Ford Econoline did not have a sturdy enough transmission.
We bought 14 of them in 2011 and replaced the transmission in every one twice before 100,000 miles.
This caused us to buy a bunch of 3/4 ton and 1 ton Duramax/Allison trucks- the right tool for the job-
That is another ket point- Is it the right tool for the job? Will it hold up to what you intend to do with it? Will it last without breaking down repeatedly?
My Tundra has done well in all areas-


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Old 07-03-2015, 01:01 PM   #160
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There has been a large gap in available tow vehicle power and load capacity between typical 1/2 and 3/4 ton trucks, and this gap is where mid-size to the largest Airstreams are best suited. For most Airstreamers, not all.

Ford is making progress with lighter aluminum bodies, more load capacity and turbo-charged gas engines with a broad tongue range. Ram has a small diesel and very compliant suspensions. Chev/GMC is offering higher load capacity as an option. Titan plans to introduce a small Cummins diesel.

These vehicles are nearing the ideal power and load capacity of our mid-size to large Airstreams for most of us. I suspect in the near future we won't need to bash each others light or heavy duty pickups, most of us will be in-between when towing our Airstream is the primary reason we own a pickup. Some are there already.
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Old 07-03-2015, 01:09 PM   #161
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Two Airstream rollovers in a month

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpt View Post

as far as the propane refrigerator, that is an abomination on the part of Airstream. your 7 prong plug already has a 12ga wire for passing current to the tow, more than sufficient to run a 3 way refrigerator. now maybe back in the 50s the auto generator could not keep up, but that is hardly the case today. this is just another 'wart' on the manufacturing of these trailers and one that can be a major safety hazard in accidents like the ones that started this thread. can you smell a law suite on this one?????

Quite honestly no. Problem is that unless the electrical connections are clean between the trailer and tow vehicle, and the proper gauge wire was run back to the tow vehicle plug you may have insufficient voltage which can cause the battery to discharge. I had this issue on my SOB and the problem was always an issue of the plug from the trailer becoming corroded. I use to carry some electrical contact cleaner and a small file to attempt to keep the contacts clean.

The danger on the road is a battery discharged will not provide enough power to apply full braking if the break away switch is activated. That worries me a lot and may be some thinking by many RV manufacturers to not supply 3 way units anymore.

Jack
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Old 07-03-2015, 01:23 PM   #162
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Two Airstream rollovers in a month

One last consideration in the bigger is not always better discussion is that for some vehicles moving from 3/4 ton to one ton capacity vehicle might truly lower your towing capacity. Again I'll give an example of my GMC van. At the time gasoline were the only engines available. So a one ton van with the same 6 liter, 4.10 axle and HD transmission, was downgraded about 500 lbs in towing than the 3/4 ton, due to the heavier frame and suspension components. I don't think I've seen this in the 1/2 to 3/4 ton market. I've been told that some of the half ton pickups labeled HD, may be more equivalent to 3/4 ton models. It may be worth spending the time to consider the differences between the HD's and and their 3/4 ton equivalents if there is such a distinction in the manufacturer's offerings.

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Old 07-03-2015, 02:44 PM   #163
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Is this big enough to pull my 23 Safari? Do not know anything about it but it sure is pretty.
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Old 07-03-2015, 02:49 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jcanavera View Post
One last consideration in the bigger is not always better discussion is that for some vehicles moving from 3/4 ton to one ton capacity vehicle might truly lower your towing capacity. Again I'll give an example of my GMC van. At the time gasoline were the only engines available. So a one ton van with the same 6 liter, 4.10 axle and HD transmission, was downgraded about 500 lbs in towing than the 3/4 ton, due to the heavier frame and suspension components. I don't think I've seen this in the 1/2 to 3/4 ton market. I've been told that some of the half ton pickups labeled HD, may be more equivalent to 3/4 ton models. It may be worth spending the time to consider the differences between the HD's and and their 3/4 ton equivalents if there is such a distinction in the manufacturer's offerings.

Jack
In a pickup you do not go down in payload capacity from a 3/4 ton 1 ton.

There are many major differences between between a 1/2 and a 3/4 or 1 ton such as hd tansmission,hd frame.larger brakes,upgraded E rated tires,Hd wheels.hd rear differential with hd axels,hd radiator, large displacement transmission and oil coolers all designed with towing in mind.

What people do not understand is that the F250 and the F350 have the same ride unloaded due to the fact that they share the same primary spring in the spring pack.There is a big differance in payload capacity though due to the added progressive spring capacity in the spring pack of the 1 ton.As you add more weight another leaf comes into play.Cost is about $600 more. Nowsome 3/4 tons have very little increase in payload capacity versus a HD 1/2 ton so you really don't gain much.

The people out there that say a 3/4 or 1 ton ride rough couldn't be farther from the truth,The Superduty F250 and F350 from Ford have drastically changed and ride smooth (and whisper quiet) unloaded and as smooth or better than a maxed out or at the limit of payload 1/2 ton pulling a large Airstream.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:14 PM   #165
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Originally Posted by gpt View Post
as was immediately pointed out in the first post, overloaded past the GVWR in both cases was the likely cause. the poster then went on to explain that with a bigger tow vehicle, you get more GVWR head room. it really is that simple.
It's unfortunate that the general takeaway for most participating in the thread is the above. The situation and problem is more specific than that.

A bigger and heavier vehicle may only serve to give an additional sense of false security in said conditions. Others have already pointed out examples of 3/4 ton vehicles that have succumbed to the same fate. It would be worthwhile to understand the issue at hand.

slowmover pointed it out the best here - http://www.airforums.com/forums/f463...ml#post1645458

It comes down to this: Brake Bias - the combined vehicle is dynamically unstable when the majority (or only) braking is done by the tow vehicle.

This arises in any braking situation, but particularly in a downhill scenario. Add speed and a turn into the equation, and the trailer will be trying to run the tow vehicle off the road. Not unlike a self induced pit maneuver.

Some key takeaways from this thread:

- Brake bias to the trailer is always important, but is especially important in a downhill scenarios.
- Understand the stability lost when the tow vehicle is doing the majority braking (i.e. engine braking).
- Brake and scrub speed BEFORE entering a turn Brake in a straight line when possible.
- Be ready to manually apply more trailer brakes to regain stability
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:16 PM   #166
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I agree that speed, driving ability, and brake bias to the trailer are all very important factors. And they apply with equal importance, whether driving a 1/2 ton 3/4 ton, or 1 ton. AND, in addition to that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by gpt View Post
as was immediately pointed out in the first post, overloaded past the GVWR in both cases was the likely cause. the poster then went on to explain that with a bigger tow vehicle, you get more GVWR head room. it really is that simple.

when you choose a Mercedes SUV or a 1/2 ton PU, you had better be paying very close attention to your load limits. having a 3/4 or 1 ton PU gives you way more 'head room' in load capacity.

personally, i don't drive slalom courses with my tow and don't intend to start, neat marketing gimmick is all that was.

so unless you are extremely careful, each and every time you load up and go, it is going to be far easier to exceed the GVWR for your SUV or 1/2 ton tow vehicle than you think.

that is the simple message here, nothing more.
Well said... this IS the salient point.

I was quite surprised at how fast the cargo capacity of most 1/2 ton vehicles gets gobbled up, quickly and easily putting the rig at or beyond the weight limits.

Adding up tongue weight, then the weight of the people, dog (s), camp furniture/recliners, generator(s)/fuel tank, BBQ, bicycle(s), tools, raft/boat, extra provisions, and/or whatever else a family might want to pack along and comparing that total to the cargo capacity limit of the average 1/2 ton is an eye-opener.

Plenty of small vehicles have the power to PULL the weight of an Airstream. But that's not the important part to focus on. Handling the weight of the trailer and, especially, the total weight of all the cargo... and stopping it is of much greater importance than can the TV pull the trailer.

Certainly the 1/2 ton can work for people, depending on their unique needs, but having a larger safety buffer of cargo weight capability is nice, if not essential, again, depending on individual needs.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:26 PM   #167
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The people out there that say a 3/4 or 1 ton ride rough couldn't be farther from the truth,The Superduty F250 and F350 from Ford have drastically changed and ride smooth (and whisper quiet) unloaded and as smooth or better than a maxed out or at the limit of payload 1/2 ton pulling a large Airstream.
In addition, the 2015 Denali HD (3/4 ton w/Duramax/Allison) trucks have a wonderfully nice ride and are whisper quiet, as well. The best of the new trucks and diesels are quite surprisingly luxurious, comfortable, and quiet.
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Old 07-03-2015, 03:32 PM   #168
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