Trailer Roll Over due to... drum brakes?

[Ray Eklund]

Before disc brakes for automobiles and trucks were... drum brakes.

On a light snow on the road surface or water... the drum brakes on my 1964 Corvette were an accident waiting to happen. Each brake wore differently and also preformed differently. One time on a light snow on the road surface, driver's ahead were 'hitting the brakes'. I did the tap and light braking to find myself spinning off the paved road into the median. Instantly.

With a couple of volunteers, they pushed and I was back on the road... but the recent Thread about THREE Airstream roll overs and tow vehicle reminding me of this incident. All it takes is ONE brake to lock before the other three (or one in the single axles) to cause uneven braking.

On a straight road, dry pavement... some blame the HITCH.
On a straight road, dry pavement... some blame the DRIVER.
On a straight road, dry pavement... I am now considering the DRUM BRAKES

We all remember when ONLY THE FRONT DISC BRAKES were possible and the rear brakes were left as Drum Brakes. Later it was determined that FOUR DISC BRAKES were best.

Considering our Airstreams are electric brake technology, disc brakes must become hydraulic actuated(?). I have seen disc brakes and axles installed in 2008 at Jackson Center, Ohio on trailers in their shop. So... can someone explain WHY not DISC Brakes... or is this the future 'new upgrade' on our and other brands of trailers?

In stop and go traffic, if you need to apply your brakes... hard, could this create a problem with the uneven braking of each wheel on a trailer being towed?

On I-25 between Castle Rock, Colorado and towards Colorado Springs the speed limit goes to 75mph. We have had three, and maybe more trailer roll overs on a straight road at Titan Road / I-25 south. It is now often, Stop and Go traffic, 75mph to 0 mph, then 45mph to 5mph... daily. Hmmm. Seeing a trailer on its side, jack knived in the median, straight dry road... gives me the idea that there is more than operator error working here.

Maybe the drum braking system used in ALL BRANDS (or most?) of trailers has something to do with this. Try hitting your brakes on your street at 5 or 10mph. One, two or NONE lock up? What do you say?

[GCinSC2]

Ray,

Glad no serious issue with the Vette and you.

My rig does have dexter 4 piston discs, factory installed. I think they are stronger than you'll ever need.

You do raise an interesting sidebar about how well and uniform drum brakes are working. I still stand by the statement that braking makes heat. Anybody care to dispute that?

Ok heat can be checked with an IR temp gun. No specific values look for uniformity. Cold drums are not contributing to braking and might create pull on trailer.

Want to test the pull theory?

Didn't think anybody would want to.

Gary

[crispyboy]

The best you can do is keep the drum brakes adjusted properly. I do it at least 1x per year with the amount I travel. If properly adjusted they do seem to work well.
With the HAHA hitch I can tell when the brakes are out of adjustment. When coming to a stop you can see the front of the trailer move to one side. When this happens it's time to get out the brake spoon.
I thought seriously about disk brakes when I swapped in new axles but there was just no place to put the actuator. Also I assumed the calipers would likely get more rusty being exposed all the time vs the protection that a drum offers. My brother once had a pickup truck (2005) that was driven on every other weekend but stored in a pole barn. This truck had several sets of calipers over the 6 year period it was owned likely due to non-use.

[slowmover]

Drums are what you use when there is no alternative.

In terms of confidence: they sorta work.

[HowieE]

Ray I think you missed something. Drum brakes on a trailer are not supposed to lock up. Locked brakes become a skid hazard and the trailer is likely come around and kiss you where you don't want to be kissed.

As for trailers rolling over on a 75 mph road my first guess would be the driver was over driving his load and did not have stopping distance. This would cause a panic stopping with the TV brakes attempting to do too much of the job. The trailer goes into sway and then rolls over.

Unfortunately once the sway has started the driver doesn't have the distance required to get the trailer out of swaying before hitting the car in front of him and swerves thus increasing the problem.

Know your stopping distance at all speeds and don't drive into it.

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by HowieE

Ray I think you missed something. Drum brakes on a trailer are not supposed to lock up. Locked brakes become a skid hazard and the trailer is likely come around and kiss you where you don't want to be kissed.

As for trailers rolling over on a 75 mph road my first guess would be the driver was over driving his load and did not have stopping distance. This would cause a panic stopping with the TV brakes attempting to do too much of the job. The trailer goes into sway and then rolls over.

Unfortunately once the sway has started the driver doesn't have the distance required to get the trailer out of swaying before hitting the car in front of him and swerves thus increasing the problem.

Know your stopping distance at all speeds and don't drive into it.

"Answer" around here is to just keep buying bigger TVs. Never scale the combo nor test the brakes. Run 75. All is good. Can't feel a thing back there.

Sage advice, Howie. In a manner of speaking, the best day on the road is the one you have no reason to remember.

.

[GCinSC2]

I wonder if you did an inspection at a rally of drum brakes equipped trailers how many would need adjustment or actual repairs vs good working order?

[uncle_bob]

Hi

Having some guy named Bob zip past you, pull in 2 feet off your bumper, and then decide he needs to slow down for this exit is depressingly common. There are a lot of ways to get into a panic brake stomp situation. There also are a lot of rigs on the road set up in "interesting" ways .....(10" down at the front looks so much better ....). Lots of combinations.

Could brake lockup be an issue? Sure. I'd expect to see a tire messed up (or at least a telltale skid mark) as a result. As with all the post crash stuff on trailers, there is are a lot of possibilities and pretty much zero hard data.

Bob (the guy in the Yugo ....)

[jdalrymple]

Couldn't have been a Corvette being driven on snow and ice......

No, not that.


Regards,


JD

[slowmover]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

I wonder if you did an inspection at a rally of drum brakes equipped trailers how many would need adjustment or actual repairs vs good working order?

Let's see: adjust drum brakes and drive three block loop. About six stops. Return, re-adjust brakes. Repeat Ad Infinitum

Tear down every 5k. Might be often enough.

[Countryboy59]

Originally Posted by uncle_bob

Hi

Having some guy named Bob zip past you, pull in 2 feet off your bumper, and then decide he needs to slow down for this exit is depressingly common. There are a lot of ways to get into a panic brake stomp situation. There also are a lot of rigs on the road set up in "interesting" ways .....(10" down at the front looks so much better ....). Lots of combinations.

Could brake lockup be an issue? Sure. I'd expect to see a tire messed up (or at least a telltale skid mark) as a result. As with all the post crash stuff on trailers, there is are a lot of possibilities and pretty much zero hard data.

Bob (the guy in the Yugo ....)

When they cut in they either clear my bumper or they don't. I'm not gonna wreck letting someone in.

[Ruscal]

Disc brakes stop better, but probably aren't the reason for the crashes. I would guess that brake bias could more likely cause a "tail happy" or oversteer condition. Assuming that our tow vehicle brake bias is OK, we then move to TV to trailer bias, which we can all adjust on our trailer brake controller. Most people just do a simple adjustment to insure they get some pull when operating the manual lever on the controller. If one wanted to go farther to dial it in they could find a safe place away from traffic to perform some tests at moderate speeds to test how the trailer behaves when mashing the TV brake pedal. Do the first tests in a straight line and observe the trailer's actions in the mirrrors. The trailer should not pull either way, nor should the trailer brakes lock either wheel. Adjust bias down on the trailer to stop wheel lock up. If TV feels like it is being pushed by the trailer, then adjust bias up and retest. Once it feels balanced you can do some further tests while going around gentle curves and try the stops. If the trailer steps out sideways during the curve tests, try a little less trailer brake bias and retest. Wet, dirty, icy pavement will amplify any bias problems, and may require a little less trailer brake bias.
The Corvette mentioned in a post above may have had a Positraction limited slip differential which makes acceleration more touchy in reduced traction surfaces.
Russ

[featherbedder]

Originally Posted by crispyboy

The best you can do is keep the drum brakes adjusted properly. I do it at least 1x per year with the amount I travel. If properly adjusted they do seem to work well.
With the HAHA hitch I can tell when the brakes are out of adjustment. When coming to a stop you can see the front of the trailer move to one side. When this happens it's time to get out the brake spoon.
I thought seriously about disk brakes when I swapped in new axles but there was just no place to put the actuator. Also I assumed the calipers would likely get more rusty being exposed all the time vs the protection that a drum offers. My brother once had a pickup truck (2005) that was driven on every other weekend but stored in a pole barn. This truck had several sets of calipers over the 6 year period it was owned likely due to non-use.

To clarify not argue, calipers do not rust rotors [disk] do as drums rust also. Most times calipers are replaced is pistons stick causing pads to contact rotors causing damage to rotors or complete failure. Disk brakes are very easy to work on but most people don't no how. I find disk easier to work on than drum brakes but I have both w/years of working on them, one tool that is dif. is c clamp to retract piston in calipers.

[uncle_bob]

Originally Posted by slowmover

.......

Tear down every 5k. Might be often enough.

Hi

How far would you guess *most* TT's get driven in a year? Not the "hey I went from Miami to Alaska" year. On average, is 5K miles a year or is it more like 5 years (or ten)?

I have a nasty suspicion that it's 1K a year or less. A 5K tear down at 5 years would be a long time to just let the brakes and tires sit and rot. I'd bet it's very common though. Can't do it in PA ( we get to do / pay for yearly state inspections ...) but common elsewhere.

Again, another variable to toss into the great big pile of ambiguity over why stuff happens.

Bob

[Ray Eklund]

My 1964 Corvette had posi-traction. It was my only vehicle for a 21 year old, paid $1800 of savings to purchase.

I suspect that the left front brake was braking more than the other three, thus pulling the vehicle towards the culvert between the north and south lanes. On dry pavement, never an issue. Over time these brakes would wear and come more into working as a group, than one or two locking and two not.

Recall when some hod rod geeks would tighten the front brakes and loosen the rears, so they could 'smoke them tires'? This is what we are getting into on this debate.

1965 Corvettes had DISC BRAKES front and back as standard. A big improvement.

The majority of Airstream owners, or a RV, are NOT capable to adjust their brakes themselves, or even depend on a dealership to adjust them. Try getting your Airstream into a shop to have a Dometic AC or refrigerator repair.

Brakes...??? the dealership could not even set my Equalizer Hitch properly on my 2014 25 foot International to my tow vehicle properly. I followed instructions on THIS FORUM to do it myself and thank all for the advice.

Drum brakes on my trailers, respond totally different when braking and traveling ON dirt, gravel and paved roads. They are much easier to lock up on dirt and gravel. Try it, you will immediately understand. I know, I test them to see if they are indeed, at least, connected and working.

Get a flat spot from a brake lock up on your tire skid wear and live with the thumpa, thumpa... thumpa. Just like the maladjusted 18 wheeler trailers.

Somehow the trailer industry wants each owner to adjust or have adjusted at a Service Center (good luck) frequently and perfectly before and after each trip. Are you taking some kind of... medication?

I found one wire to a wheel not even connected, as new. It was missed on the crimped connection and not inserted far enough to be secured. I then checked all and then taped them from any possible, future, problems.

Electric drum brakes are a vestige of Horse and Buggy technology.

Yes, I have my brake drum adjusting tool. Try to adjust the drums as Airstream advises. Tighten and then back off 'so many' clicks. Then you are told to check your bearings frequently, grease them... and then... readjust your brakes again?!?

There are no doubt Brake Geeks out there. I am mechanically inclined. I tinkered on my cars and older pickups as they constantly needed repairs and parts. Brakes... which trailer and RV Dealer want that... liability?

Maybe this is passed onto DEXTER AXLE to take the heat when the DooDoo hits the fan.

I discovered, even with my 23 foot Safari detached connecting cord, my tow vehicle had adequate braking... just from my 5.7L 2008 Tundra. This was in mountain towing in Wyoming. It made me question how much these drum brakes actually... brake when in use.

Anyone who has replaced DISC pads knows that it is a quick repair.

Drum Brakes... it is not simple, nor solves all repair or adjustment possibilities. Even the brake shoe powder within the drum can become a factor. Add bad bearing seals with grease added to the mix and you have compound problems. Each wheel braking reacts differently with weight, tire and surface friction. Good luck, I say for those 'perfect adjusted brakes'. Then add... heat and drum uneven wear.

If I were 100% ignorant about drum brakes, I would feel much better. Ignorance is bliss.

But I am only 50% ignorant and know a problem exists. There is little one can do, but try to manage with the software and hardware you possess currently.

I suspect that there may come some day a reckoning with these inadequate brakes for such heavy trailers. The lawyers will pile onto this one as there will be plenty of cases to examine. The 'Driver Error' days may be coming to a close. Drum brakes may be on their way out of the trailer brake system. What is better? The engineers are wiping their forehead sweat knowing that something may come to trigger an entire re-engineering of how a tow vehicle and trailer... stop.

SOONER... the better. Your and my safety require brakes that actually... work.

[GCinSC2]

I think Ray has an idea, but maybe not proof of a contributory cause to his comment about brakes. I can't prove or disprove but this comment is based on an actual event.

At a well attended rally we had a newbie with a single axle AS that sought help as she smelled her TV brakes while getting to the rally in some hilly roads. This BTW is not a good thing.

I did a show and tell about R&R of a tire on the AS so I sorta got involved.

After a lot of trials the determination was that the brakes were functioning electrically but no braking occurred. We even swapped TV's to rule out controller problems. No luck.

A request was made for a brake adjustment guru, somebody that knew the technique w/o a learning curve. This rally was well attended.

I got under the trailer after much discussion and such, this axle was self adjusting per dexter labels.

Run it backwards hard and jamb on the brakes was some of the collective wisdom.

Folks, don't do that one these adjust in the forward direction. Check your owners manual.

More strong discussion, no one had the magic dust.

We were collectively unable to concur and failed in assisting a newbie about getting very low usage brakes to work. 😡She has them adjusted at a dealer later and continued. We / I believe that they were too far out of adj for the auto adj to bring them back in to adj. needed a jump start sorta.

I'm very skeptical about the real number of owners having correctly adjusted brakes. I didn't say all, no data available. But folks add this to your I'm gonna learn more about my brakes wether I do my own adj or pay for it.

With respect and regards to all.

Gary

[Gamehawkers]

The facts are that Drum brakes are a proven safe technology if they are properly maintained. Granted it is an older style braking system. Disc brakes are superior but cost more so manufacturers save money and weight by using drum brakes when they can.
If there was a failure of the braking system in your vehicle it is ridiculous to make the assumption that the technology is inherently flawed and therefore must have caused the Airstream trailers to overturn.
Each collision is unique unto itself and all facts including the driver's actions need to be documented in order to develop a complete picture of what caused the collision. I routinely inspected the braking system of each vehicle involved in a collision to establish if the brakes were functioning properly at the time of the collision. I have seen disc brakes where one of them failed to activate during emergency braking. It was determined that the driver had failed to properly maintain the braking system.
I have not inspected your corvette so I cannot make any determination as to the braking system's condition. That would be foolish, irresponsible and unprofessional just like assuming that all drum brakes are potentially flawed because of the experience you had with a 1964 corvette.
I do not know you but based upon factual statistics compiled by insurance companies most 18 year old males driving a corvette tend to drive over the speed limit and take lots of risks. They also don't have a tendency to properly maintain their vehicles and drive around on tires with insufficient tread. Additionally , a 1964 corvette has a lightweight fiberglass body and very little weight over the rear axle. This results in a vehicle by design that has very little traction on wet or snowy roads. The Ford Mustang of the 1980's was so bad that while driving on wet roads you could not exceed 63 mph because the rear tires would lose contact with road and you would be hydroplaning. Ask anyone who has a Dodge Viper if they drive it in the rain.

[kdickinson]

My AS has drum brakes. I had them inspected and adjusted and they work fine. I test them on the dirt road I live on as I am leaving to be sure they are working and that they are not locking up as I mash the brake pedal at the bottom of the road once to test. I don't expect the trailer brakes to do any more than add to the overall braking action of the TV/Trailer unit - in other words they would not be adequate to nor are they designed to stop the full unit if the TV brakes fail. Could brakes cause a roll over - maybe but I figure they are more contributors than an outright cause. But point well made - regardless of design brakes on the trailer should be tested inspected and adjusted regularly.

[m.hony]

Hmm...
50,000 miles divided by 7 years...
7,143 miles per year towing the Airstream (and Forest River Wildwood 28RLSS) give or take...

[Andrew T]

We actually tested this once at the drag strip. We disconnected all the brakes on one side of a 34' and then did a panic stop from 60 MPH other than the longer stopping distance and a slight pull on the wheel to one side it was uneventful.

One disadvantage with disc brakes in a trailer situation is the time delay for actuation.

Andy