Trailer Roll Over due to... drum brakes?

[Wanderer2604]

Drum brakes work but they need to be adjusted occasionally I'm old enough that I learned how to do it as a teenager. On my '97 Safari I packed the bearings and adjusted the brakes every year or so and replaced the brakes and shoes at east once when they wore out. You adjust the brakes just like you would on a '55 Chevy.

DIsk brakes are superior since they don't fade as bad, they are self-adjusting and changing the pads is much easier than changing brake shoes on drum brakes. They do require more force to apply without power assist. Drum brakes take less force since the rotation of the drum tends to help force the shoe into the drum.

One thing most are forgetting here: As our cars switched to disc brakes over the years, we added power to the brakes and also lots of extra technology to prevent lockup on each wheel.

My 2007 Classic has disc brakes from the factory. They resist fading. However, there is just one hydraulic line that is split among all four wheels. If you try a hard stop and one of the wheels hits a little gravel or sand, that wheel will start skidding and will skid until you stop or back off the pedal.

As to the brake delay previously reported, I use an F250 controller in the dash with the "electric over hydraulic" option set and if there is delay, I don't perceive it. In fact if the gain is set a little too high and you hit the pedal hard, you can smoke all the trailer tires instantly (ask me how I know).

[Ray Eklund]

The video on Post #40 is pretty much a summation of what I have been told. Plus or minus.

Try it on your back in your garage. You will probably be willing to pay a month's wages to have a shop work the brakes over. Thanks Xipper. It appears that it jumps from a 4x4 to a trailer, but all is the same when you get to it. Did they look under the 'boot' for a jack?

Lets say those who rolled their Airstreams had the factory adjustments. Good, Bad, Evil or done perfectly. Lets say the Tow Vehicle can tow, but has much too short of a wheel base and weighs less to much less than the Airstream.

Brakes are applied and the errant brake pulls the trailer to one side or another, for a jack knife, taking trailer and tow vehicle over on their sides.

As some have said... this is all complicated. I agree. I suggest, to be the persistent PIAss, that even if each brake and drum are, lets say, five clicks back... do they all react the same? I have no clue. I have spun the wheels and have my wife apply the truck's brakes and they lock up solid. No argument on that.

What a Pandora's Box. I would like to have the answer so I could patent it and buy a new trailer every year, and then give it away on the Forum to a good home when I buy another.

Now I do want to see a 25 foot Oliver Trailer. I want to see how it's axles and braking system is set up. I am a curious sort. I ask why, and then persist to ask, why. Bible School did not want me as a young kid as I asked too many... Why questions. My aunt had enough and sent me home. Noah's Arc was one that really got me... thinking. Also sea shells on top of mountains in the Middle East was a topic a 7 year old really could work with, as well.

Thank you for joining this discussion from experiences.

Now we have those bringing up "How much wind would it take to blow an Airstream... Over?" Full, empty? Take a half full beer can and a Leaf Blower and do your own Thread. Glue some Silver Dollars for wheels and keep drinking until the damn can blows down the street, and go back at it like a real scientist. Thalweg... you have a mission.

[Gamehawkers]

Originally Posted by Andrew T

We actually tested this once at the drag strip. We disconnected all the brakes on one side of a 34' and then did a panic stop from 60 MPH other than the longer stopping distance and a slight pull on the wheel to one side it was uneventful.



One disadvantage with disc brakes in a trailer situation is the time delay for actuation.



Andy

Excellent factual point Andy!
By using testing you proved beyond a doubt that without steering input from the driver or some other factor that directly contributed to a loss of control, trailer brake failure on one side will not result in a rollover. You rock!

[GM Airstream]

first off corvetts are lousy winter cars... they were not made to go through snow... they are a roadster to be the best... so you put the vehicle in a environment that it wasn't supposed to be used in...

As to drum brakes vs Disk.... each has their good and bad side... the major reason that AS didn't go with them was the hardware that was needed to control 'em... remember they did try it back in the 80's and use a vac device to make 'em work... they failed...

Drum brakes are cheaper and more reliable... in the end... and take a min of hardware to make 'em work... however...

Drum brakes are contengent on the weight applied... i.e if you set them for light load.. they will not give you a equal braking with the TV... set 'em for a heavy load and they will skid the tire every time... so you as the DRIVER have to use some intelect to insure they are set up for the weight, rig and speed...

One other problem with drum and Disk brakes... is that if you let the trailer set... the wearing surface WILL RUST... this then will give the initial braking more friction... thus when you first start out... you will get excessive braking... till you skuf off the rust... then you will get back to a NORMAL.... brake...action... so don't go the first 100 ft and set the brakes for the effect you get... stop at least a dozen times.. to help clean up the brakes... as not only is the brake shoe/pad cleaning up but on the drum brakes the electromagnet that cause the action...

Now which is better... some say disk other say drums... well here is a thought..for you... if disk were so great... how come most of the large semi's have drum brakes ...STILL...

Drum brakes don't do well going through water... as they have to drain... while the disk will self clean going down the road...

Drum brakes don't have any drag... while going down the road.. until applied... where as the disk brakes seem to always have just a slight amount of contact... by design... and you don't make the mileage you would with drums...

The amount of pressure that a disk brake has to exert on the rotor... is 10 x's as much as the shoes on the drum... go figure.. so where is this energy going to come from... your foot is the wrong answer... (go out find a nice place that has a gentle slope... shut off the car engine but unlock the steering... press 3 times on the brake ped... most of the time the 4 time... you won't have any brakes... i.e disk pressure now comes from your foot... as the vac booster is depleated... however, make sure you can recover from the runaway... by either starting the engine again.. or having a slight unobstructed upslope... yep it will open your eyes to the fact that them disk brakes do require assistance to make 'em work.... so if your engine quits... you best be putting the vehicle in park...quickly..until you can get the engine going again for the vac booster... power brakes... or your going to hit something hard)

Another issue is how are you going to chain the disk brakes to the TV brakes.. and try to make them equal...or slightly offset ?... come up with the answer to that question and I am sure you will get rich...



The only reasion that auto went to disk is because they are cheaper to make... and require less maintenance... but, you do have to replace the pads more often... I have disk on the front of my TV and drums in the rear... and the front pads have been replaced 3 times.. the rears are still going strong...and org'al... Another issue is the old emergency or parking brake... on disk you dont get that... where as with drum you can lock the brake and the vehicle will stay their... (yes I know that AS doesn't have parking brake on their drums... and wondered why they never did... as it would be easy to cable something into the existing drum brake.. and now the trailer would stay where it was ... without blocking it.. or taking some other device to keep it from moving...)


So in sum it up... disk while simpler.. has it problems... drum while cheaper have theirs.. but for the amount of time on the road... the drums are the better way to go... and that is why we still have drum brakes today on the airstreams....

[GM Airstream]

In case you haven't figured it out yet... the engineers already have the solution... the TV MUST be able to stop...the load.. you tundra proved that they got it right... but others will consistanly overload the TV... thus we are seeing the politioons starting to come up with a new set of laws... to keep the stupid from killing themselves andothers on the highways... by overloading the TV's Its not just a issue of brakes either... wheel and wheel loadn'gs play a larger part of the accident picture ... their is no way that the manufactue can guard against illerate people...

[MarkFinATX]

Here's what I've learned about drum brakes.... the hard way. When they fail, you have very little warning and the results could be catastrophic. Fortunately I had the DILL TPMS on and after seeing one wheel's temp climbing pulled off the road and just then the alarm triggered. It wasn't hard to figure out which wheel it was because I could feel the heat on my face. The alloy wheel was to hot too touch. Plus the smell of burning brake pads...
I knew I didn't have all of the tools I'd need, and the trailer was only months old (2016 Pendleton) so I called CoachNet and found a place to park just a few blocks away. It was late afternoon on Labor Day weekend, Sunday, in Kiowa OK. Maybe not the end the earth, but you can see it from there.

It was Monday morning before Goober showed up and figured out that he needed a larger socket to pull the hub nut off. I wasn't thrilled with the service, but we were able to limp back home to Austin TX that day. It beat being towed or trailering the AS to Dallas/Ft. Worth.

Picture shows the burnt up actuator, I guess it somehow shorted out and the brake shoes were on full.

So after unloading and cleaning out the trailer I got it down to Buda TX to our illustrious Airstream dealer. It took weeks just to get it into the shop, then I was informed that they couldn't just use off the shelf parts and had to wait for an order to come in from Dexter... took another couple of weeks... and by the time it was finished it was November!

Since then I've checked out the brakes as best as possible. I think that the true test is a high speed stop, on pavement. So before we load her up for a trip I make sure to set the brake controller output, starting at 7.5 and from a minimum of 65 mph and get on the brakes hard. What I look for is any pull from either side and does it feel like it's in control. We have about 15K miles on the Pendleton and I'm not sure how many miles to put on before changing out the brake shoes. My thought was to run the Michelins for 40-45 K miles or 4 years, whichever comes first and do the brakes at the same time.

Any other ideas/suggestions?

[Ray Eklund]

Originally Posted by Gamehawkers

Excellent factual point Andy!
By using testing you proved beyond a doubt that without steering input from the driver or some other factor that directly contributed to a loss of control, trailer brake failure on one side will not result in a rollover. You rock!

*****

This could be a one time test without braking on one side with, I assume well adjusted brakes on the other side.

I did, without knowing, braking down a mountain in Wyoming without any brakes on the trailer... not an issue. I did not even notice. This was with a 2006 4x4, 4.7L double cab Tundra at the time towing the 2006 23 foot Safari. Both loaded for two weeks of Boondocking.

I discovered on our 2014 International that when I was checking brakes, one wheel brake did not operate. I quickly discovered one wire connecting the electric brake to the electrical system was not crimped together and was loose. So a three brake test with a 2008 5.7L 4x4 Crew Max Tundra. Not an issue.

I had no issue with NO trailer brakes and THREE activating trailer brakes.

We are not discussing NO brakes, partial active braking... but misadjusted brakes that activate in varying degrees from total lockup to operating within specifications.

With my Equalizer Hitch, some discuss sway issues. I have never had sway or any issue with this hitch with my 2014 4x4 5.7L Tundra Crew Max and my F350 Ford Diesel handles the 25 foot like a toy. (The first hitch with the 2006 Safari is the one with the chain links and I never saw a name on the unit. No sway, no issues.)

I am speaking of BRAKES that activate, lock up or do whatever a new trailer is not expected to have occur. When I drive my ZERO mileage Airstream off the lot... do I then go to a service center to have them adjusted... properly? If our new vehicles needed that, there would be lots of Federal and State intervention towards SAFETY.

Brakes on trailers may become a government SAFETY issue... if trailers are creating death and mayhem on the highways. I have no statistics, but sure see a lot of questionable junk on the road being towed.

Possibly... NO BRAKING with a heavier tow vehicle may even be a safer to travel, with a properly adjusted hitch.

I never make any assumptions about what I think is obvious, someone else's observations, or what others are thinking or doing, as the true test. A total accident report, checking these details just AFTER an accident is fresh and may give up some clues.

Roll Overs seem to be more dramatic and there is a list of needs on my clip board to understand, to check off driver error to slick oily road issues, etc.

Follow the discussion as it opens up. I will eat all the Crow I am fed, if it gives all of some idea of what maladjusted brakes will do to controlling your trailer. Then it leads into lighter and shorter wheel base to vehicles... and off into the who knows.

Doing an investigation you must gather facts and experiences. My opinion is merely that of an interest observer of MY trailers and tow vehicle experiences. I do not have access to any information that is not my own or presented on the Forum.

[Ray Eklund]

GMAirstream... excellent!
MarkFinATX... excellent!

[Ray Eklund]

I do want to dispute that the 1964 Corvette has no snow handling capability. I also add the 1965 did well, too. Living in Cheyenne, Wyoming one does what you have to with a vehicle. It is the lower clearance that is the issue... the depth of snow, never was a handling issue. If the snow on the road exceeded clearance... you are right. You are like the VW high centered and stuck, unless the snow shovel is in the back and start digging.

Not all of us come from New York City. My 1956 and 1964 VW Bugs were EXCELLENT in snow. Yeah, yeah... rear engine weight on rear drive axle... I know worked very well. The sheet metal protecting the under carriage was a great... sled, over drifts and back onto to plowed roads.

Newer Corvettes with the wider tires, like I had on my 1969 427... had no traction from a stop light when a little water was on the road. Bought my FIRST 4x4 3/4 truck after that experience.

Everyone makes assumptions that they, like I can do by mistake, make assumptions that everyone else has had a sheltered life and had a driver to take me from busing tables at a Cheyenne motel and restaurant.

Fiber Glass by the way... is heavy. Fiber glass was easy to put shape into the bodies... not to reduce weight. That is why a 1960's 6 banger XKE could beat a 1964 V8 in the quarter mile... aluminum and torque.

I love unifreck+ electric bicycle. I see he is watching this thread. It does go anywhere I wanted in the mountains of Wyoming. Thank you for allowing me giving it a test. You're the Man!

[ITSNO60]

Originally Posted by Wanderer2604

Drum brakes work but they need to be adjusted occasionally I'm old enough that I learned how to do it as a teenager.

Same here. Now days a lot of people don't even know what a "brake spoon" is. Or how to set the preload on the bearings, or how to pack them by scooping grease into the edges of the roller using the palm of your hand. I made my own brake spoons out of old screw drivers, still have one in the tool box.

[barts]

In 2010 when we replaced the axles on our 25' Tradewind I decided to get the disc brake kit from Inland RV, which consisted of Kodiak brakes and a Carlisle electric actuator. This has given us excellent powerful fade-free braking. Yes, there's a bit of lag (prob. about .2 seconds) but this hasn't been a problem.

The key for easy bleeding is a push button momentary contact switch on a long wire connected in parallel w/ the break-away switch w/ the trailer disconnected from the tow vehicle. This allows me to easily bleed the brakes at each wheel, since I can cause the pump to run when I open the bleed screw by depressing the button. One of these days I may make a container that insures that the master cylinder stays full during bleeding.

Since 2010 the only problem has been two broken brake hoses (at the caliper); I've since replaced all of them w/ a newer Kodiak part that is much more rugged, and these work perfectly.

It's really easy to check for brake wear and bearing troubles, too.

Well worth the time and $$; probably rate it as medium difficulty due to routing and bending lines.

- Bart

[Mike G]

Originally Posted by Mike G

I took possession of a 27' 2018 in July, and have already had trouble with the brakes. The trailer is in the shop right now, following our trip to see the eclipse. First there was terrible grinding from the front right wheel. Then it disappeared, and they figured a rock had gotten caught between the drum & pad. Then, an intermittent squeak developed, at the same frequency as the wheel rpms. Due to Airstream's procedure of first approving warranty work, THEN shipping parts, I'm still waiting.

So, it turns out the star wheel came loose somehow, and did a lot of damage. The warranty work has been approved by Dexter, and now we wait for the
parts . . .

[guskmg]

Post #51,Bart: I had the delay problem you experienced until I installed a DirecLink Brake controller from Tuson. Airstream sells and installs them. The Service Center says they have the best disc brake electric/hydraulic compatability they have run across. I have used one for 4 years and there is no delay if you set the gain properly. DirecLink uses the TV OBDII connection to match them to the vehicle's computer. Good Luck.
guskmg

[barts]

Originally Posted by guskmg

Post #51,Bart: I had the delay problem you experienced until I installed a DirecLink Brake controller from Tuson. Airstream sells and installs them. The Service Center says they have the best disc brake electric/hydraulic compatability they have run across. I have used one for 4 years and there is no delay if you set the gain properly. DirecLink uses the TV OBDII connection to match them to the vehicle's computer. Good Luck.
guskmg

This is indeed what I would like to use now that the max brake unit is no longer available... but my 1996 F250 doesn't have an OBDII port .

The lag is present when I use the manual level on the existing controller, so I really think it's due to remaining trapped air in the lines, and the inevitable compliance in the hoses going to each caliper. Since the electric motor in the brake actuator is limited in power, it takes time to build hydraulic pressure - thus the lag.

I still think the best actuator for hydraulic brakes would be an automotive vacuum brake booster + master cylinder actuated by a linear servo driven from the electrical signal from the tow vehicle. Vacuum would be provided for by a small tank connected to one of the electric vacuum pumps used in electric cars. Since the instantaneous power available is high (stored energy in vacuum tank), the actuation speed could be faster, and such a unit would be more easily repairable. Mounting space for the components could be an issue, though; the existing actuators are pretty tiny.

- Bart

[Ray Eklund]

Barts and guskmg brought up the hydraulic disc conversions.

Google: hydraulic trailer disc brakes

You will not be bored nor find a lack of information!

[franklyfrank]

Originally Posted by GCinSC2

I think Ray has an idea, but maybe not proof of a contributory cause to his comment about brakes. I can't prove or disprove but this comment is based on an actual event.

At a well attended rally we had a newbie with a single axle AS that sought help as she smelled her TV brakes while getting to the rally in some hilly roads. This BTW is not a good thing.

I did a show and tell about R&R of a tire on the AS so I sorta got involved.

After a lot of trials the determination was that the brakes were functioning electrically but no braking occurred. We even swapped TV's to rule out controller problems. No luck.

A request was made for a brake adjustment guru, somebody that knew the technique w/o a learning curve. This rally was well attended.

I got under the trailer after much discussion and such, this axle was self adjusting per dexter labels.

Run it backwards hard and jamb on the brakes was some of the collective wisdom.

Folks, don't do that one these adjust in the forward direction. Check your owners manual.

More strong discussion, no one had the magic dust.

We were collectively unable to concur and failed in assisting a newbie about getting very low usage brakes to work. 😡She has them adjusted at a dealer later and continued. We / I believe that they were too far out of adj for the auto adj to bring them back in to adj. needed a jump start sorta.

I'm very skeptical about the real number of owners having correctly adjusted brakes. I didn't say all, no data available. But folks add this to your I'm gonna learn more about my brakes wether I do my own adj or pay for it.

With respect and regards to all.

Gary

My contribution on this subject. Three different AS trailers in 5 years never one lick of break problem with any of them. Once a year I take it in and have them pull the wheels an do a through inspection. And that is because it is parked more than pulled. We travel approx. 7,500 miles per year.

[GM Airstream]

Originally Posted by barts

This is indeed what I would like to use now that the max brake unit is no longer available... but my 1996 F250 doesn't have an OBDII port .

The lag is present when I use the manual level on the existing controller, so I really think it's due to remaining trapped air in the lines, and the inevitable compliance in the hoses going to each caliper. Since the electric motor in the brake actuator is limited in power, it takes time to build hydraulic pressure - thus the lag.

I still think the best actuator for hydraulic brakes would be an automotive vacuum brake booster + master cylinder actuated by a linear servo driven from the electrical signal from the tow vehicle. Vacuum would be provided for by a small tank connected to one of the electric vacuum pumps used in electric cars. Since the instantaneous power available is high (stored energy in vacuum tank), the actuation speed could be faster, and such a unit would be more easily repairable. Mounting space for the components could be an issue, though; the existing actuators are pretty tiny.

- Bart

That was the system that Airstream had too... if you check back in the 80's... they had a vac line run from the car engine to the vac booster on the trailer... which then pushed a master cyc just as the car does... lots of problems with them though.. as they were way ahead of their time... and it got complex... i.e bad problems if the vac line had a leak... and now the TV doesn't stop either... https://www.airstream.com/wp-content...e6e67f5109.pdf

Another system they had at the time is the waist water injection into the cars exhaust... which I am sure made for a nice day... but today wonder if it was injected into the engine might give it some boost power... go figure.. airstream was way ahead of its time on that one too... but, it I am sure is illegle to have that system anymore... not to mention the solids left
behind... that would fill up the tank space... Here is the discription of what AS sold... back then... and... Someone just came up with a new version of this system... again...

The mixture of liquid and small particles then moves from the receiving tank to the machine's homogenizer This pump grinds the solids into tiny particles Nothing that leaves the homogenizer larger than the ball in a ball point pen.

The fluid is then sent to an injection pump The injection pump pressurizes the fluid and sends it through a nozzle into the hot engine exhaust stream

In the final stage, the engine's exhaust heat flash evaporates the fluid, killing 99.9 percent of the bacteria without chemicals. What's produced is water vapor and a little bit of mineral ash, which goes out with the exhaust. There's nothing to dump from the holding tank.

So you want to put one of them on your TV also... just think .. no more dump station charges... and waisted time... just drive for 100 miles and the old holding tanks are clear... go figure..

[Ruscal]

Drum brakes may be the best option until the blending of computer control and disc brakes happens.
Drums, due to their spongier action may have an advantage in controlling unwanted lockup.
Drum brakes fade when used in long intervals, eventually becoming useless.
Disc brakes also fade, but can warp the rotors which causes grabbiness and pedal pulsing.
That said, I also agree with previous posters views that most people do not understand the braking system mechanics of our trailers, and also that many shops don't seem to do proper work on them.
I am guilty of not knowing how they work, but know that I could easily learn.
Our trailer is a 2008 purchased last December from a party that maintained their equipment by using the local dealer to do the services. The brakes seem to have decent slowing ability when the shoes are cool, and I have not descended any long grades yet to access fade characteristics.
I still plan to disassemble and inspect the brakes. By doing that I will learn how it works, and get some peace of mind regarding the health of the system.
Logic tells me to clean and de-rust the hardware. Check the linings for thickness, glaze, and fit to drums. Clean and check the electromagnet and make sure wires are in good condition and routed away from harm. lightly lube any pivot points. Reassemble. Install wheel and adjust the "star" until the wheel scrubs, and then back off a little. Test on the road.
I will do a wheel bearing change at the same time, since I don't know what bearings are in there. I only use Timkens if I can find them. Chicago Rawhide seals are good. Those brands have worked for me without fail.
We have a trip coming up in two weeks, but I won't have time to do the work first, so no "warm fuzzy feeling". Looks like a crap shoot.....
Russ

[GCinSC2]

Originally Posted by Ruscal

I am guilty of not knowing how they work, but know that I could easily learn..........By doing that I will learn how it works, and get some peace of mind regarding the health of the system.
Russ

Excellent!