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Old 01-02-2017, 06:29 PM   #61
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You've entirely misread everything I've posted in this thread.
That is entirely possible, and if so I apologize. I am unaccustomed to the style of your writing. I didn't mean disrespect, just trying to keep the thread on topic.

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The tech aspect is interesting to some.

Maybe not to you.
It is most definitely interesting to me, which I would hope is evident from my previous posts in this thread. I have gone into much greater technical detail over at the Tesla Motors Club forum, where I am quite active. Looking forward to sharing more here, and learning.

Again, apologies for talking past you.
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Old 01-02-2017, 06:30 PM   #62
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Towing with a Tesla is a joke.
There are some who think the same about using a one ton pickup as a single occupant vehicle (when not towing), but are too polite to point it out.
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Old 01-02-2017, 08:45 PM   #63
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I like my new ram 6.7 cummalong , it is like the Kenworth with a 500 hp cat and it will walk.This EV car is interesting,the new technology is impressive after seeing one going down the 1/4 mile.
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Old 01-02-2017, 08:51 PM   #64
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Could you charge from let's say a Honda eu2000 generator/inverter?
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:13 PM   #65
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Why yes one could charge from a Honda eu2000 but it would take a long long long long long long long time.

On the other hand one could charge at the RV park 50 amp pedestal overnight depending how discharged.
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:38 PM   #66
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Very interesting thread, thanks. If I were to switch to an EV for towing, I would also switch from an Airstream to a Bowlus Road Chief. It's a much lighter trailer, even more aerodynamic, and thus probably much easier to tow with an EV.
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Old 01-02-2017, 09:53 PM   #67
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Very interesting thread, thanks. If I were to switch to an EV for towing, I would also switch from an Airstream to a Bowlus Road Chief. It's a much lighter trailer, even more aerodynamic, and thus probably much easier to tow with an EV.
It was definitely a consideration. I was able to see one being towed by a Model X, and it's a well built trailer. That said, there were a few drawbacks - the dinette seats two, and we're a family of four. I did like that there were two twins instead of a double from the dinette, but collapsing the dinette wasn't seamless, you need to use the outdoor camping table. And there's that little fact that the base price of the Bowlus after tax is 3.5x what I spent on my 22' Sport. That wouldn't even include the king bed bolster. Fully optioned, which is the version I saw (Lithium+), it was $220k pre-tax, $238k+ post tax. So more than a 4.5x premium.

I have some data on that trailer. 475Wh/mi - 525Wh/mi at 55mph in ideal conditions, depending on which report. The 22' Sport consumes 575Wh/mi in the same scenario. It's definitely a range extender, and is purportedly more stable at 65mph (a speed I'm unlikely to sustain with my Airstream). The owner pulled it easily over Donner Pass from Rocklin, so the weight is a factor on some climbs.

But.. while a gorgeous trailer, it had a lot of uncertainty from a depreciation standpoint and just overall cost/insurance/etc. As a relatively shy person, I'm already towing an Airstream with a Tesla. Do I need more people to look?
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Old 01-02-2017, 11:29 PM   #68
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Ohmman, thank you for sharing! Fascinating! Keep it coming!
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Old 01-03-2017, 12:29 AM   #69
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I would of course agree that the Bowlus is far too expensive for casual consideration - especially the lithium version. I love the look and feel, but my wallet hates the idea of the price.
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Old 01-03-2017, 10:14 AM   #70
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I for one , hope this interesting conversation doesn't get cut off.
This is one of those subjects that unfortunately bring out entrenched positions from some that are closed to new technology and the need/ cost to develope it.

The formerly abundant petrol fuels will not last forever and does come with additional costs to the environment and to health of those around its concentrated use. As well as financial costs. Large spill clean ups, protecting our interests in far flung oil producing parts of the world, etc. these are all real costs of the use of petrol based fuels. And do add considerably to cost at the pump.

It's a brave step to commit to the use of new technology in transportation.
And a needed one to see the EV come to more usefull maturity.

So my congratulations to Ohmman for making that leap, and for sharing his results openly with us here. Please continue.

All the best in the successful use of your clean new rig.

Cheers Richard
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Old 01-04-2017, 09:44 AM   #71
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There are some who think the same about using a one ton pickup as a single occupant vehicle (when not towing), but are too polite to point it out.
This has nothing do with being offensive or polite just the cold hard facts every one seems to just ignore .
As to your remark above the big difference between the guy toting around with a 1 ton truck alone ( full disclosure I tote around with a F-250 Diesel) versus the Tesla owners and promoters on this thread is that we pay 100 percent of cost for our indulgence, acknowledge that it is an overkill but we enjoy it.
Fact, every Tesla ever sold and being sold is at a huge loss. Weren't it for the fact that Tesla makes a huge profit selling Carbon Credits ( a highly political endeavor) and the tax rebates Tesla would not exist today.
As to the green electricity generation, today we get less then 6% or electricity generation from wind and solar. At night the solar panels don't work just like the wind farms don't work when the wind doesn't blow.
To create the storage capacity that would replace the back up power provided by Fossil Fuel and Nuclear plants is not possible anytime in the foreseeable future. The technologies hasn't even been invented. It will not happen within anyones life time walking the earth today.
The most likely scenario that might make EV vehicle development viable is fuel cells. As it stands today Tesla and EV in general doesn't even register on the total vehicle sales scale.
You wan't one go ahead have fun knock yourself out. Is it a major development for towing campers and trailers I beg to disagree.
The good old fully developed ICE power plant is here to stay for a long long time.
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:38 AM   #72
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This thread is drifting into politics again.
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Old 01-04-2017, 10:45 AM   #73
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Some observers may misunderstand the business model of Tesla, so I'll just supply the following information.

Tesla's margin on the Model S and X averages around 25%. It's less for the base models and more for the highly optioned vehicles. That is to say, Tesla makes that much money on each vehicle without counting CARB credits, prior to reinvestment in the business. To be clearer, Tesla makes money on every vehicle sold. They could be quite profitable as a premium electric vehicle niche, but that's not the business plan.

Tesla's "secret master plan" has been published on their website for the last decade they've been in business. It was: to first sell a high margin, high priced sports car (the Roadster), which would then fund selling a mid-margin, mid-high priced sedan (Model S), which would fund building a mass market vehicle (Model 3). The Model 3 is slated to be in production by the end of this year with a starting price of $35k without tax credits.

This might help one understand the way they've had to build a business in a very difficult industry, against a lot of odds. It also explains why some have the impression that it's a "rich man's toy." Hopefully after this year, when the Model 3 starts to get into the hands of the hundreds of thousands who have reserved, that impression will change.

So what of the power that supplies the vehicles? In my case, I charge from PV on my roof for most of my miles. One nice thing about having an EV is that the ROI on installing solar becomes very short - in my case, 6 years. That's a good financial investment by any stretch. But in many cases, they're fueled by fossil fuel plants. Even in the worst case, where the energy is created by coal, the EV is so much more efficient in turning energy to movement that the end emissions are lower than for comparable ICE vehicles. If interested, look up the variations in calculations by searching for the "long tailpipe theory."

The good news on these fossil fuel plants is that they're cleaner each year. Last year (2016), the World Economic Forum reported that wind and solar reached worldwide cost parity with their coal and oil counterparts - and that's without incentives. Power companies making new investments are going to evaluate the economic benefit and regulatory risks associated with each type of power generation, and renewables are slated to come out on top.

Battery storage is the bridge between all of this renewable energy and peak demand, which don't necessarily align. The now infamous "duck curve" that we're seeing in California is the result of oversupply of solar during the day and then a high demand when the sun is weakening and homeowners are returning from work to run their AC. The long term solution is storage, which captures daily generation and evens the grid load during the evening hours. It's not terribly far off. Reference Germany's solar history for a lesson in what oversupply looks like. The market for storage is enormous, and solutions range from the obvious battery banks to the less obvious potential energy solutions (for instance, allowing excess solar to pump water to elevated reservoirs and then recapturing it with hydropower at night). I toured the Gigafactory, and the battery side of things is progressing rapidly. LG is doing good work in South Korea as well.

I certainly didn't intend this thread to get too deep in the weeds on the business model of Tesla or the science and evidence behind renewables. It seems worthwhile to bring it up regardless. Apologies for the longish post. I'm happy to elaborate on any of this if anyone's interested.
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Old 01-04-2017, 11:41 AM   #74
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This is a pretty good explanation:

https://matter2energy.wordpress.com/...ar-efficiency/
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:18 PM   #75
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... we pay 100 percent of cost for our indulgence
Apart from the large subsidies to the fossil fuel industry, and all of the externalities related to public health and climate change, just to name two.

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Originally Posted by franklyfrank View Post
...
You wan't one go ahead have fun knock yourself out. Is it a major development for towing campers and trailers I beg to disagree.
I think it is a very significant development, not by the current market share but by the growth potential. And what gets learned in applications that push the range limits (like towing) will have even more impact on non-towing applications, where the numbers are higher. The lessons are transferable.

I don't think early adopters of towing with EVs should be seen as a threat. It is a very interesting subject and there is lots to learn.

Jeff
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Old 01-04-2017, 12:27 PM   #76
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Thanks for the link. That is a good explanation.
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:26 PM   #77
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What are the complete towing specs for the Model X? I was in a Tesla showroom a couple weeks ago, and the Tesla employee helping us didn't provide impressive specs. In fact, she indicated the hitch could only take something like 250 lbs. I assume she was incorrect?
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Old 01-04-2017, 02:35 PM   #78
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She was incorrect. With 22" wheels, it is 3500/350. With 20" wheels, it is 5000/500. The $750 towing package is required and includes the 7-way connector, towing software (air suspension leveling, anti-sway control, etc.).

The receiver is the Euro-style Bosal up-and-in device.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
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Old 01-04-2017, 06:18 PM   #79
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As battery technology and range develop, the costs will come down and feasibility increase. I'll be buying a new TV next year, as my Sprinter is 11 years old, will have over 225k on it, and I want something......nicer. I don't want to spend Tesla money right now, and will probably go with a Mercedes Metris (I need a van with rear cargo doors for business). Even ICE technology has improved, though, as I will still be able to tow my Bambi with the 2 liter turbocharged 4 cyl with 210 horses. Sheesh - a few years ago, getting 200hp out of a 2 liter racing motor was great! Love to go electric, or even hybrid, and the next time around it will probably be commonplace. Thanks for this insight, Ohmman!
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Old 01-05-2017, 05:17 AM   #80
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I'm gonna take a wild guess that Tesla is not aiming at the one ton truck market with their electric vehicle. Ford, Chrysler, Nissan and BMW will all have EVs available in the next year or two as well as conventional drive trains. Commuting and leisure towing are two very different applications. I'm glad to see an alternative to fossil fuels and I suspect it may actually apply pressure on fuel prices.

I actually drove an early electric vehicle to work and enjoyed it. They've certainly come a long way since mine.
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