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Old 07-14-2017, 04:28 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by mikeinca View Post
For my part, apologies.
Thanks for the facts in your post. Interesting stuff. It's good to put numbers to the topic.

Just because a retiree can't tow an Airstream with an EV doesn't mean it's a bad idea for commuters going to and from work. It has enough range for 95% of us to drive all week on one charge.

Personally I put more weight on responses from people who've actually driven them, and I ignore the partisan stuff. Thanks OP.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:42 AM   #182
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Thanks again for the link. FYI I happened to see this post on the subject, which you may have seen already:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...ibility.82089/

Peter

FYI


Quote:
Originally Posted by ohmman View Post
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/...america_en.pdf

Page 68.

They give no guidance one way or the other on WD hitches. I spoke with some engineers there, and while they wouldn't give confirmation one way or the other, we did agree that since there is no unibody (there's a "skateboard" frame), it's probably safer than on most other vehicles. Hands on experience says that the vehicle handles very well with WD, but obviously the stock hitch has the issue I posted above.

Hope this helps.
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Old 07-14-2017, 10:44 AM   #183
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Originally Posted by OTRA15 View Post
Thanks again for the link. FYI I happened to see this post on the subject, which you may have seen already:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...ibility.82089/

Peter

FYI


That's my thread. Note the member name..
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Old 07-14-2017, 12:17 PM   #184
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Funny! It just came up in a general search for WD hitches vs. uni-body tow vehicles. I wasn't even searching for EV or Tesla X etc..

Small world . . .
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:33 AM   #185
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Repeating something over and over doesn't make it true. If you're going to keep saying it, please provide the data to support your argument. Otherwise it's nothing but bluster.

Regarding solar, how about the times you don't see people running a generator? They are charging with solar the entire time. Only seeing the times that they are running the generator is confirmation bias. I suggest you consider challenging your own biases.
For the record: I don't have a bias against electric cars, solar panels or windmills.
None make any sense to me from a practical point of view. It seems to me that the emotion and the bias is on your side and all of the EV enthusiasts.
You are the ones with your heads in the sand endlessly trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Every Solar panel, lithium battery conversion comes with all sorts of caveats not to mention the exorbitant cost. And I ask to what end from the practical point of view.
I don't see how an EV can be looked at as a viable alternative to ICE especially when it comes to towing.. I can tow my 30' AS with my F-250 Diesel for 400 miles none stop an any terrain at any speed. Then pull over fill up and be on my way in 30 minutes. As soon as an EV comes along to give me the same experience for the same investment I might take a second look.
This thread needs to be re-titled as the Tesla EV tow vehicle enthusiasts club.
Had it been titled that way I would have never participated.
We have have been tinkering with electric cars for over a hundred years and there still isn't anything on the horizon that could replace the ICE. It is always the same story. Battery technology needs to evolve more. Need more charging stations. On and on. Just imagine the size of a Charging Service station that would be required if you had the same number of EV pulling in to recharge as the number of ICE cars pull in on a given day to a Road Pilot to fuel up?
Again it make no sense. Maybe in another hundred years.
In the meantime enjoy your EV experimentation.
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Old 07-15-2017, 07:51 PM   #186
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For the record: I don't have a bias against electric cars, solar panels or windmills.
None make any sense to me from a practical point of view. It seems to me that the emotion and the bias is on your side and all of the EV enthusiasts.
You are the ones with your heads in the sand endlessly trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. Every Solar panel, lithium battery conversion comes with all sorts of caveats not to mention the exorbitant cost. And I ask to what end from the practical point of view.
I don't see how an EV can be looked at as a viable alternative to ICE especially when it comes to towing.. I can tow my 30' AS with my F-250 Diesel for 400 miles none stop an any terrain at any speed. Then pull over fill up and be on my way in 30 minutes. As soon as an EV comes along to give me the same experience for the same investment I might take a second look.
This thread needs to be re-titled as the Tesla EV tow vehicle enthusiasts club.
Had it been titled that way I would have never participated.
We have have been tinkering with electric cars for over a hundred years and there still isn't anything on the horizon that could replace the ICE. It is always the same story. Battery technology needs to evolve more. Need more charging stations. On and on. Just imagine the size of a Charging Service station that would be required if you had the same number of EV pulling in to recharge as the number of ICE cars pull in on a given day to a Road Pilot to fuel up?
Again it make no sense. Maybe in another hundred years.
In the meantime enjoy your EV experimentation.
Frank, you're never gonna drive an EV. I get it. You can't tow your trailer all day and fill up in 5 minutes. Might mean it's not suitable for towing but it's well suited as a replacement for an ICE commuter vehicle. The Tesla is not the only option. There are quite a few EVs on the market and many more coming. Don't want one? Don't buy one

Why not let the discussion continue? I love my F350 but also love technology, jobs and new ideas.

Lots of people don't have Airstreams and need to get to work.
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Old 07-15-2017, 11:49 PM   #187
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ohmman, I continue to enjoy all the information you are sharing on your real-world experiences. Thank you for letting us all along for the ride!

And so glad you and your family had such a fabulous trip!
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:10 AM   #188
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. . .
In any event this subject has been beat to death.
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Old 07-16-2017, 10:24 AM   #189
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Frank, you're never gonna drive an EV. I get it. You can't tow your trailer all day and fill up in 5 minutes. Might mean it's not suitable for towing but it's well suited as a replacement for an ICE commuter vehicle. The Tesla is not the only option. There are quite a few EVs on the market and many more coming. Don't want one? Don't buy one

Why not let the discussion continue? I love my F350 but also love technology, jobs and new ideas.

Lots of people don't have Airstreams and need to get to work.
I concur 100 percent with you on that an EV is a great idea for a second car urban vehicle. Drive it 50/60 miles plug it in over night and you are good to go. And I am also aware that there are many other options less expensive that Tesla. On our FL island the most popular second vehicle is an electric Golf Cart. Almost every garage has one.
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Old 07-16-2017, 11:38 AM   #190
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Frank, you just need to soup up a golf cart. Wax all the senior citizens. Silently. Then get serious about a sleeper, and go hunting for Teslas.
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:56 PM   #191
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I concur 100 percent with you on that an EV is a great idea for a second car urban vehicle. Drive it 50/60 miles plug it in over night and you are good to go. And I am also aware that there are many other options less expensive that Tesla. On our FL island the most popular second vehicle is an electric Golf Cart. Almost every garage has one.
Here in Detroit, where many businesses make parts for EVs, there are quite a few Chevy Volts, Nissan Leaf, and Teslas, and businesses have plug in parking spots for employees. It's quite common to see EVs on the road.

When I drove the only EV around (a conversion) everyone thought it was ridiculous. Gas hit $4+ that summer and I didn't buy a drop...(for that vehicle anyway��)
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Old 07-21-2017, 02:27 PM   #192
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I appreciate Ohmman's thread and the pioneering work he is doing to explore and exploit the use of an EV to tow an Airstream. While electric vehicles have been around for a long time, I think this is the dawn of a new era where the technology is evolving rapidly. Ohmman is finding, and reporting, that his family can enjoy traveling in their Airstream with a Tesla X. He has more or less defined and described the limits of how they can travel with this rig, and this is very useful information for others who may wish to explore the use of an EV for this purpose. His example proves that one can use an EV for towing if one is willing to abandon old habits. Clearly this is not for everyone with todays technology, but I expect the practical limits of EV's will continue to expand and become more affordable.

We have come part way along this road, as we are towing our 23D with a plug-in electric hybrid. In spite of many opinions to the contrary, we have found our hybrid to be an awesome tow vehicle. With a modest ICE engine, electric motor and modest battery, it has more than adequate pulling power and well over 300 mile towing range. So far we get a bit better mileage than our previous diesel when towing, and above 40mpg for a typical day of exploring from our campsite. Our all-electric range is a modest 15 to 18 mi (10 mi towing), but there is a savings from regenerative braking.

Again, thanks to Ohmman for sharing these experiences.
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Old 07-21-2017, 05:41 PM   #193
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What is your tow vehicle please Charlie? As mentioned earlier in this thread we test drove the X but would like to consider other options.

Thanks,

Peter
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:26 PM   #194
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Peter,

We tow with a BMW X5 Xdrive40e. I have a thread on that topic:

http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...0e-163929.html

Charlie
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:37 PM   #195
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Thanks Charlie, an interesting read.

Peter
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:10 PM   #196
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We just returned from another trip to Lassen Volcanic National Park. It's our second closest national park behind Yosemite, yet we've never been. There were a handful of caveats worth mentioning that pertain to towing with an electric car. Hate to feed the trolls, but I'm here for honesty about the current state of things.

We were staying at the Shingletown KOA, which is a 219 mile drive from the house. Google estimates it at about 3.5 hours at freeway speeds, which are 70mph. I'm guessing some ICE owners will tow at those speeds, but I certainly don't. I left the house with a full charge and was able to drive at any speed I desired to the Vacaville Supercharger, which is an hour from my home. I still had a pretty good charge at that point, but I needed to charge there in order to make it to the Corning Supercharger, which would be my next stop along the way.

At Vacaville, we found only 2 of the 8 spaces available. It is a back-in charger, so I had to unhitch. Thankfully, unhitching takes less than 5 minutes now with the modifications I've made (flip foot and electric tongue jack mainly). We were in place and charging shortly after arrival, but I found that we were only receiving about 30kW (instead of at least 100kW) at our charger. I unplugged and moved but hit the same limit at the other available charger. Within minutes, there was a line of 3 Teslas waiting for a spot, so I was fixed in my spot.

To reach Corning, which is about 111 miles away by road, I needed a full charge. Readers of this thread know that charging to full is a very slow process compared to charging to 80%. Add that to the fact that the chargers were limited for some reason, and it resulted in a full hour of charging before we could depart.

I spent two hours en route to Corning and spent just under an hour there charging while we ate lunch at the Olive Pit. I ran back before the family was done eating, unplugged, rehitched, and had the car ready to go when they finished. Not a lot of sunk time on that stop despite the time.

From there, the drive was very easy to the KOA. This KOA happens to have a 40A and 80A Tesla charger as well as being extremely supportive of charging at the pedestal. One of the staff made a point to drive over in the golf cart and thank us for bringing our EV to their park. We saw one other Tesla while we were there, but they weren't towing - they had a cabin.

Elapsed time outbound was 7 hours. That was double the Google estimated time. Even though I'd argue that an ICE TV would have to stop at least once and wouldn't travel at 70mph most of the way, it's still a big difference. Maybe 4-4.5 hours vs 7. That's one of the sacrifices to towing with an EV at this time.

Another sacrifice was our choice of campsite. The KOA, while excellent, is just outside of the park. Campsites in the national park do not have hookups at all, so we couldn't charge the car if we were there. With an ICE TV, one could still boondock relatively easily at the park, though they'd have to drive down the hill to fuel up if they did run out. The upside for us is that we woke up with a full charge each day due to the 50A connection at the pedestal.

Our return was much faster. With an elevation loss out of the mountains, no Supercharger congestion, and no scaled back charge rates, we spent 6 hours on the road instead of 7. It's quite possible we could have reduced that a bit if we were in a hurry, but we had breakfast at our first stop and my wife was doing some shopping at the second.

Overall, a great trip and a lovely national park, but there were a few caveats regarding towing with the Tesla. For me, it's worth the sacrifice.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:21 PM   #197
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Thanks for your continued reporting and observations. I bet the original gas stations weren't all that convenient or common either. Time will tell whether EVs become as ubiquitous as ICEs
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:36 PM   #198
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Towing with Electricity and a Model X

Love this thread (except for the politics posts; I really wish we could have a "hide posts by..." feature like on Facebook so we don't have to waste time thumbing through useless fodder on a mobile browser).

It's super interesting to hear what is possible today and but for this thread, it wouldn't have occurred to me that you could tow a 22 with an EV as well as you report. Granted there are many concessions.

Not yet ready to give up my RAM Diesel but there will be a day in my lifetime or my sons (who will inherit my AS) when EV tow vehicles will be hopefully viable to tow my 27 FB. Sounds like charging stations may require more infrastructure investment - just think of the line when all those preorder Model 3s start hitting the road. I've considered an EV as a commuter car but our charging options here seem less available than in more urban areas. That will surely improve.

It's really fun to learn about your experiences and greatly appreciate the candor so I encourage you to keep updating the thread. For a few years I camped with a Honda Element custom pop top camper and it was an adventure trying to keep the weight of my gear down to address the small payload and towing capacity. Your setup would have been ideal albeit far pricier.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:02 AM   #199
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Thanks ohmman for the detailed and honest update. As with any new technological advances, it helps if users enter the fray with "eyes wide open" . . .



. . . and your diligent appraisals help us all do this!

Thanks again,

Peter
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:36 AM   #200
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Sounds like charging stations may require more infrastructure investment - just think of the line when all those preorder Model 3s start hitting the road. I've considered an EV as a commuter car but our charging options here seem less available than in more urban areas. That will surely improve.
They were nearly done with 8 more stations at that location, which would double the available stations to 16. At the time, they were painting the parking lines. On our return, they were cleaning the pedestals. I asked if they were opening later in the day but the guy told me "soon, but not today." Photo attached. The other stations (and my white X) are peeking out on the other side of the utility cabinet.

The reason for the line had to be the slow charging. There appears to be an issue with the original Tesla pedestals or cables where the heat starts to get to them. The car throttles the charge rate to keep the charger from overheating. At least, that's the guess among the enthusiasts who follow this stuff. Newer pedestals and cables seem less affected.
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