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Old 12-13-2012, 10:07 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by MrUKToad View Post
Yes I have and it is. Didn't realise I'd not responded on that.
Used to have an admin assistant who would have said, "I'm so sure", but of course, I cannot say it like she did, or look like she did when she said it.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:40 AM   #44
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MrUKtoad,

Ya know, it's not that I don't believe you, but I did some checking on my own, and if you have the biggest engine in your 2011 Toyota Sienna van, you have a max payload of 1190 lbs with this vehicle. Your 2011 28' International has a manufacture's stated tongue weight of 950 pounds, and I've seen the pictures of you WD hitch, which just has to weigh at least 50 pounds. So, my Texas math says:

1190 lbs
-950 lbs
-50 lbs
_____
= 150 lbs available vehicle capacity for occupants, cargo, etc.

All I have to say is, you and your family must be really skinny.
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Old 12-13-2012, 10:42 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by panheaddale View Post
The airstream were towed by big sedans back in the day..... you had cars weighing 4,000 pounds and built like a tank.
Back in the 60's the big Chrysler's were popular TV's. My dad had a 66 Windsor sedan and then a 69 Newport. Both had 383's. That big, heavy 4 door Windsor weighed 4015 lbs.

A 2011 V8 AWD Chrysler 300 has a curb weight of 4513 lbs.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:06 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
MrUKtoad,

Ya know, it's not that I don't believe you, but I did some checking on my own, and if you have the biggest engine in your 2011 Toyota Sienna van, you have a max payload of 1190 lbs with this vehicle. Your 2011 28' International has a manufacture's stated tongue weight of 950 pounds, and I've seen the pictures of you WD hitch, which just has to weigh at least 50 pounds. So, my Texas math says:

1190 lbs
-950 lbs
-50 lbs
_____
= 150 lbs available vehicle capacity for occupants, cargo, etc.

All I have to say is, you and your family must be really skinny.
I can't speak for for the specifics of MrUKToad's setup, but the answer to this should be obvious if you've been reading any of Andrew T's posts....

Payload weight is limited the maximum weight a vehicle can carry WITHOUT weight distribution...most of which is assumed to be over the rear axles.

The correct formula for a 2011 Sienna is with proper weight distribution applied:
GVWR = 5995 lbs
Curb weight (heaviest model) = - 4490 lbs
Max weight carrying capacity = 1505 lbs.

BTW the GVWR will always be lower than the sum of GAWR, so no issues there.
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:13 AM   #47
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I got the 1190 lbs from Toyota and it said nothing about weight distribution, it said "Max Payload", so that means all the weight that goes into the vehicle.

It also said GVWR of 5995.

Do you know the max payload on a Chevy Traverse?
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Old 12-13-2012, 11:51 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by Road Ruler View Post
Back in the 60's the big Chrysler's were popular TV's. My dad had a 66 Windsor sedan and then a 69 Newport. Both had 383's. That big, heavy 4 door Windsor weighed 4015 lbs.

A 2011 V8 AWD Chrysler 300 has a curb weight of 4513 lbs.
It's difficult to equate weight with strength, as there has been considerable weight saving measures in automobiles to attempt to combat the need to add a gazillion air bags, navigation systems, etc. Airbags do little in making a vehicle more or less capable for towing.

Similarly a heavy metal dashboard on the older vehicles contribute little to strength for towing. Or a cast iron block versus aluminum...

Far too many variables to make generalizations...
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:34 PM   #49
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It's difficult to equate weight with strength

Far too many variables to make generalizations...
Agree, and in fact our car is a lightweight and in many ways that is an advantage.
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Old 12-13-2012, 01:54 PM   #50
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. . . but down here in the good ole USA manufacture weight rating are used and enforced on a daily basis.
If this is true, why can no one give an actual example of this happening to recreational trailers being towed by private, not commercial, drivers?

And why do weigh stations exclude recreational trailers from pulling in for inspections?

These threats and dire warnings are repeated all over the internet (often by the same people) but never supported by actual incidents.

Would someone have a specific incident?

doug k
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Old 12-13-2012, 02:33 PM   #51
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Towing with Chrysler 300 AWD

Greetings Road Ruler!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Road Ruler View Post
Back in the 60's the big Chrysler's were popular TV's. My dad had a 66 Windsor sedan and then a 69 Newport. Both had 383's. That big, heavy 4 door Windsor weighed 4015 lbs.
I agree that the pre-1980s era Chrysler products were great tow vehicles, and I owned two. One was a 1965 Dodge Coronet 440 sedan with the 361 cubic inch wedge V8 with 4 BBL Carter Carburetion and dual exhaust; and the second was also a 1965 Dodge Coronet 500 Convertible with the 383 cubic inch wedge V8 with 4 BBL Carter Carburetion and dual exhaust. Both cars were excellent tow vehicles, and were equipped with custom welded trailer hitches that a local welder built utilizing scale drawings direct from Chrysler so that their unit-body-constructed chassis wouldn't by over-stressed by towing. After towing with both of these cars, I do not buy the argument that unit-body vehicles aren't suitable for towing travel trailers . . . but I do continue to apply the rule of towing no more than 80% of my tow vehicles trailer tow rating (particularly on any trip taking me into the mountains). I have attached an image of the plans for a 1960s era Chrysler receiver hitch.

Kevin
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:21 PM   #52
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Do you know the max payload on a Chevy Traverse?
Yes, my 2011 Traverse payload is 1524 lbs. Considerably higher that most minivans...which is one reason I chose the Traverse over a minivan (along with the AWD option). Of course the natural result is that the Traverse ends up being heavy, and suffers from poorer gas mileage as compared to a minivan. There's no free lunch.

To be fair, although some lighter weight vehicles are capable of towing very well and within the limits of the law...one limitation is that you can't carry a lot of cargo in the TV and stay within the weight specs.

And Steve, I must apologize for the rather condescending response in my earlier post...it was unwarranted and disrespectful. That was not my intention.
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Old 12-13-2012, 05:42 PM   #53
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Yes, my 2011 Traverse payload is 1524 lbs. Considerably higher that most minivans...which is one reason I chose the Traverse over a minivan (along with the AWD option). Of course the natural result is that the Traverse ends up being heavy, and suffers from poorer gas mileage as compared to a minivan. There's no free lunch.
The data that I found said the Traverse had a max payload of 1621 lbs. The same site (Chevrolet) said the Traverse had a towing capacity of 2000 lbs. What does your 25 footer weigh?

No need to apologise as I did not read anything "condescending", in my opinion.
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Old 12-13-2012, 06:46 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by dkottum View Post

These threats and dire warnings are repeated all over the internet (often by the same people) but never supported by actual incidents.

Would someone have a specific incident?

doug k
I have kind of an "opposite" incident.
Quite a few years ago, My W hit a car that was parked in the middle of a highway on-ramp, at night, very close to a 90-degree curve. There were no street lights, so it is pitch-black, and when you're taking a corner, your headlights are not illuminating the road ahead of you; they're pointing off to the side of the road. This ramp is short, and uphill, so you really have to step on it to get to highway speed in order to merge.
Anyway, being a former commercial truck driver, myself, I was incensed at what the driver of this other car had done (or more accurately, NOT done with his (allegedly) disabled vehicle. And I was able to cite chapter and verse of the DOT regulations that require commercial truck drivers to place flares or reflective warning devices. I can still picture the diagram in the test manual, showing this exact scenario, with explicit instructions on placing the flares around the corner, to warn drivers who wouldn't otherwise be able to see the problem until it was too late to react.
well, anyway, long story-short: this went to court, and nobody really gave a crap about any of that. It just doesn't apply to private vehicles and their owners.
("court" was because the owner of the other car made a claim against my insurance, and they wouldn't pay him, suspecting fraud. You couldn't find a better way to dispose of an unwanted vehicle than to do what he did, and there was absolutely no reason that he couldn't have moved the car off the road, because it was on a hill, and there was nothing but flat ground to the side of the pavement. It would have taken 2 seconds to put it in neutral, roll back a few feet and off the road. But instead, he left it dead-center in the middle of the road, with no flashers, where it was sure to be walloped, hard...left the scene and went bowling.).

Anyway, point is, truck rules don't apply to cars.
Real life court/legal stuff isn't like what it is on tv.

(oh, and not all of the tongue weight is supported by the tow vehicle; some is transferred to the trailer axles. Exactly how much will vary based on the individual setup, and you can't know for sure without weighing it. )
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:29 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by panheaddale View Post
"BECAUSE YOU CAN PULL DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN STOP IT ..."
I see this concept in many forums/post - where it is implied that one needs a large vehicle to safely stop your rig...

A few minutes on wikipedia gets to the math for stopping distance for a vehicle -

d = v^2 / (2 u g)

where:
v = velocity (speed)
u = coefficient of friction of tires on road surface
g = acceleration due to gravity

Mass (weight) of the vehicle does not enter into the picture.

Provided the braking system can impart sufficient force to slow the wheels and provided the tires are similar in size and material then a Chrysler 300 can stop the same trailer just as well as a Ford F250.

Comparing the brakes of a 2012 Chrysler 300 V8 with 2000 Ford F250, the 300 has the edge in the front with 13.6" rotors as compared with 13.0" on the Ford. On the rear, the Ford gets the edge with 12.8" as compared with 12.6" for the 300. Call it effectively even.

Duelies on the truck would help as this would increase the coefficieint of friction. But the argument is not that one can only tow with trucks with duelies.

Am I missing something?
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Old 12-13-2012, 09:37 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by SteveH View Post
The data that I found said the Traverse had a max payload of 1621 lbs. The same site (Chevrolet) said the Traverse had a towing capacity of 2000 lbs. What does your 25 footer weigh?
The 1621 lb figure is probably the FWD model, mine is AWD which is a little heavier. Rated tow capacity is 2000 lbs w/o tow package, 5200 lbs with.

My Safari weights 4850 lbs dry, around 5600 lbs loaded without fluids.

I've posted all the details in this thread...
http://www.airforums.com/forums/f238...rse-91344.html
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