Towing Questions

[Grotegut]

Dear RedNax,

I found your latest post remarkable; funny, smart, challenging to default assumptions about towing and driving. Thank you much! You write well. You should do a towing column, although questioning default assumptions is generally unpopular.

I'm still looking for our airstream, but I trust the wisdom of starting with a basic education in hitches and driving expectations. Pro-pride and Maxbrakes, transmission coolers and extension mirrors, possible hitch reenforcement and air bags for rear coils. Learning how to drive with different assumptions and expectation and RPMs. All a brave new world for a neophyte.

I imagine there are many like my wife and myself who do not want to buy a V8 truck or a larger SUV to occasionally tow an airstream. Just receiving affirmation that smaller, daily-drive vehicles can make very adequate, safe T/Vs if properly equipped has been reassuring and liberating. Not to mention $4 (or $5) gas. It would be interesting to know something of the history of tow vehicles. What was used in the 50's and 60's? Station wagons? Sedans? Pick Ups?

I have started correspondence with two A/S owners who use their Sienna as T/V. Both Canadians by the way. One blogged his journey to the Artic Sea and back towing a 30'. I want to send another hearty thanks to Gene who put me in touch with Can-Am RV's of London, Ontario and prepared me to expect a wide range of towing philosophies on the forum. (Whether you agree with it or not, the Can-Am website is a great resource to begin a towing education. American RV dealers should pick up on their educational service.)

Extended cab V8 trucks are no doubt great TV's for many of you, but not for all of us. Many thanks REDNAX for your challenging post. Thinking always begins when we go beyond our default settings in life.

Stan of Boulder

[kds]

I'm sure this question has been answered somewhere but thought I would try this thread. I am a wanna-a-be and have been for several years. I stalk the Forum on a regular basis to gain as much knowledge as I can! All of you have so much great info!!!!!
This past weekend I looked at a 2008 Safari 27 FB SE. WOW, my lights lit up it was beautiful.
Question: I have a 2010 Toyota Tundra, 5.7 V8 double cab, 2wd, 8 ft bed. I have read many posts that seem to say yes, it's good for a 27 FB and some say no, stick to the 25FB.
So, I ask the age old question----can I pull this AS with my Tundra? I would love to hear from someone who pulls a 2008 27 FB with a 2010 Tundra or anyone else that has "the answer". THANKS so very much!!!!

[aftermath]

YES, you can.

[Jammer]

kds

As with so many towing questions it depends on context.

CAN you pull the 'stream with the Tundra. Well yes. With proper attention to hitch and brakes, you can do so safely. Would the Tundra be something you would buy if you were out shopping for a tow vehicle today? Probably not.

They're two different questions.

Read Rednax's post and decide how far and where you want to travel and what you're willing to tolerate then decide for yourself.

The 'stream will outlast several TVs so you'll have a chance to experiment at some point.

[kds]

I will read Rednax's post. I bought the Tundra last year not thinking (of course) that the AS beauty I fell in love with was a 27 FB. I always thought I would start with something small but this is a great deal and I know the owner well.
I think my biggest concern is that I love to travel to CO. I just don't want any "white knuckle moments". I want a TV that can handle the AS I buy.
Thanks so much!

[kds]

Originally Posted by aftermath

YES, you can.

Hey aftermath, how do you know "I can"? I see you have a 25 FB, have you pulled a 27 FB with a Tundra? I would love to chat with someone that has pulled a 27 FB with Tundra and learn from their experience!!!
Thanks!

[slowmover]

What was used in the 50's and 60's? Station wagons? Sedans? Pick Ups?

Through the end of the 1970's the family sedan was king.

[pappy19]

Can you tow with it---yes. Will you feel comfortable towing with it-maybe not. If you add a set of Firestone rear air bags and a good hitch, again-maybe. Problem is the tail wagging the dog if you know what I mean. You need a big dog to keep the tail in place and a good HD 1/2 ton or stock 3/4 ton will make you tow safer, IMHO.

Pap

[DreamStreamr]

We thought we should document eqch time we've switched ti 4WD on our big red truck. Neither really wants to, there's just no point. But we did start paying a little more attention to whether 4X4 is worth it to us.

We paid more to buy it, it costs a little more in gasoline and perhaps someday in maintenance. But for this pair of full-timers, 4X4 is worth it. We use it a few times every month at least. Sometimes it is backing or pulling the trailer onto levelling blocks. Sometimes we are backing the trailer uphill into a difficult space in gravel. A few times we've been in downright mucky mud rally sites and were just as happy not to accept the tractor hookup, we pulled out just fine by ourselves. Sugar sand sunk us in St Augustine FL until we engaged 4WD, then pulled out easily. We vote for 4X4 on our tow vehicle.

Friends tow their 30' Classic with Tundra, zero problems. Same with another couple we've traveled with towing their 25 Classic with Tundra all over Canada and USA.

[Scott J-24]

We tow our 2009 27' FB International with a 2010 Tundra 5.7L 4x4 without any problem and are getting about 12 mpg.

[slowmover]

You should do a towing column, although questioning default assumptions is generally unpopular.

Yeah, the irritation-to-enlightenment ratio is likely not impressive in re my delivered opinions. But anyone is welcome to investigate the details, the "how-to" of driving as refutation. I do think of RV'ers in general -- those with enough of an interest to read, ask questions, post -- as those likely to exhibit best behavior on the highway as well as those most likely to set their equipment up to best standard. It's frustrating feeling alone in sorting any issues (prior to Internet and reliance on wishy-washy trade advertising rags), and accumulated wisdom is/was near to non-existent.

I do wish there were a publication to which we might all refer as bible. Commentaries on a learned text would benefit us all.

(Think what fun of the schisms: the Diet of Worms, the creeds; the Old Believers versus the Projected Linkage[s]; identifying colors and camp banners; anointings; proscribed days of travel; the stations of the dump, etc . . . . )

One would hope that our pilgrimage is of other than correct products in correct use. That's too short of a road.

.

[kds]

Wow, such great info. Seriously, I can't tell you how much I appreciate those of you that have contributed to my knowledge pool. I have so much to learn!!! Since I plan on pulling this AS by myself most of the time ,I felt it really important to make sure my TV was worthy and capable. If this is the AS I end of buying, I will be sure to post on this thread and let you know my opinion and hopefully help someone else like you have helped me. Thanks so much!

[Gringo]

I, too, want to thank you guys for all the info. We are just about to decide ( this week) which of two 27FBs to buy. One is a 2010, and the other a 2011. I have not been able, yet, to find out what differences were made to the International 27FB's in 2011.

And since we live outside the US, and own no vehicles there (We own two Land Rover Defenders here) I have a clean slate as far as what tow vehicle to buy. We plan to try to rent a truck for this year, and buy a used one next year.

I still don't know what kind of vehicle to get. I suspect we will be looking for some 3/4 ton diesel 4x4, as we want to be able to tow from the Texas Gulf Coast up into the Rockies on a regular basis.

But boy, if you don't have a particular brand in mind, the array of 3/4 ton trucks out there is mind boggling. Especially when you want a used one. I am not looking forward to trying to determine the difference between say, a 2006 Ford F250 and a 2007, 2004,2003,Ford, Tundra, Chevy, Dodge, etc...

maybe I should try to ask the question...
If you could choose ONE ideal tow vehicle from any produced in the past ten years, for towing a 2011 International 27Fb, what would that ONE most perfect tow vehicle be? Just big enough to do the job reliably in all conditions, but not so big that I am wasting money on purchase, maintenance, and operating costs?

And yes, I do have some experience with undersized, short wheelbase, small diesel, full time 4x4 towing issues. and offroad towing is very familiar to us as well.




P.S. I would love to know what changes were made in the 27 FBs from 2010 to 2011 too.

[aftermath]

Originally Posted by kds

Hey aftermath, how do you know "I can"? I see you have a 25 FB, have you pulled a 27 FB with a Tundra? I would love to chat with someone that has pulled a 27 FB with Tundra and learn from their experience!!!
Thanks!

Yep, I am pulling a 25 and not a 27. The 27 is 300 pounds heavier so I don't think I was sticking my neck out very far. There are two issues here that need addressing. First, the Tundra has all the power to pull the trailer down the road, no question. I am gauging that by the ease with which I can pull hills in mine. The second question has to do with the actual carrying capacity of the Tundra and that is the only issue I see.

The Tundra is a half ton and it does not have a great carrying load. Once you drop the tongue on the ball, you don't have lots of room to load on a lot of extras. This is the weakness that many refer to when they say you won't be happy with a Tundra.

Personally, I don't take a ton of stuff camping. Usually we load two bikes, a generator, 6 gallons of water when boondocking and some fire wood. It is just the wife and I, no dogs or kids. My trailer sits level and the Tundra is down 2 inches in the back and about one in the front. Everything is nice and level. I upgraded the tires to LRE and use an Equalizer hitch.

Would I pull a 27 with this setup? Absolutely. Since you already have the Tundra I would say go for it. By the way, the Airstream pulls so much better than the white box I used to have, it is amazing. Just got back from a fishing trip where I drove into strong head winds going and strong side winds on the return trip. Never swayed a bit.

Feel free to PM me if you have any other questions.

[Gene]

What aftermath said.

My problem with the Tundra is that they don't make Toyotas like they used to and ours looks older than it should‚ fit and finish issues.

Gene

[aftermath]

I just read REDNAX's post. He is pulling a 34 ft. trailer and I agree with what he is saying, given that his trailer is so long.

I still say you can pull your 27 footer safely and with ease. The issue remains your plans to carry a lot of "stuff" when you head out. Be wary of the weight police that think you need a big 3/4 ton diesel dually to "safely" tow your 19 ft. Bambi.

[DreamStreamr]

Gringo,
What's the ideal towing vehicle? The perfect towing vehicle for a 25 - 30 feet long Airstream is, for me, not a diesel-powered truck. The higher first cost, maintenance costs, and fuel costs of the diesel engines for light trucks reduce or eliminate a net savings from better miles per gallon.

We sold the house and moved into the Airstream and our 3/4 ton 2500HD Chevy. Our engine is quieter, less smelly, has ample torque for even the highest passes in North America, has cost us less than $1,000 for all oil and filter changes in 75,000 miles, and has never stuttered or given us a check engine light. We average 11 mpg towing with combined weight of 14,000 pounds, not as good as diesel-powered but we aren't paying for diesel.

It's true we don't have 600 ft.lbs of torque like a diesel. But we have more power than we need, and at highway speed of 58mph our engine's towing rpm is 1,500 to 2,000. Quiet, smooth, reliable, and inexpensive. Perfect for me.

Your wishes and needs may be different, so you need to detmine what you want to make your choice accordingly.

Jim

[Gringo]

Thanks for the imput. I have been surfing around and have been reading about both Ram and Chevy 2500's as being popular. I grew up in a Ford family in Texas. I am not sure my father would have let a Chevy even park in the yard, and my uncle once referred to Jimmys as just "Chevrolets with some of the lock washers on".

So I am totally unfamiliar with anything other than Ford trucks and the Land Rovers I am driving now. My son, who did four years in an automotive technical school, tells me Ford trucks are not what they used to be. Of course he likes Toyota.

So a big V8 Gas, would be as good or better than a diesel, all things considered. A 2500 or a F250, I guess. I am reading that people like the 4 wheel drive.

[pappy19]

You'll get alot of different arguments on this subject for sure. As a former diesel truck owner(3 Fords and a Chevy), a good gas 3/4 ton will do you a fine job without all of the headaches associated with owning a diesel. I personally like the Ford Super Duty as it is built better than most others with heavier components. The Ford interiors are far superior and hold up better over the long run as well. The new(since 2005) TorqueShift tranny is vertually bulletproof and is a proven tough performer over the years. IMHO you can't beat an F-250 4X4 gass rig.

Pap

[Gene]

Gringio, if you drive Land Rovers you must be pretty tolerant of repairs and unreliability. So you could buy any truck, but we find the Toyota Tundra tows very well. Massive engine, brakes, driveshaft, etc. Toyota's reliability isn't what it used to be, but it still appears to be the best. GM and Ford have improved greatly and may equal Toyota in several years, but it still does not appear to have happened yet.

Every vehicle is better than years ago so it's hard to go too far wrong, but I don't like to get stuck somewhere far from home. For what it's worth, on our trip to Alaska we encountered two Ford trucks broken down (transmission maybe) and one GMC or Chevy and I think that was tranny too. Tundra did fine.

In the many cars and trucks we have owned over 50+ years, the worst were a Mercury (1956), a Toronado (inherited, 1985), a Dodge (early '80's), early '70's International, '72 Jeep CJ5, and any VW every made prior to 1980. All the Japanese brands (12 vehicles I believe) have been far better than anything else we've owned, except for the '73 Honda Civic I had which was a throw away car at 50,000 miles (I guess Honda's doing better now, but they sure are noisy).

Gene