Towing larger trailers with SUV or 1/2 ton trucks

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by SteveH

Gene,

There are many more things that go into the calculation of a vehicle's safe weight carrying capacity than the frame or hitch. There are power trains, cooling systems, frames, axles and all their components, suspensions and all their components, brakes, wheels, tires, and on and on.

Andy T has stated that manufacturer's weight and towing capacities are arbitrary chosen and therefore meaningless.

I submit that vehicle manufacturers know infinitely more about their product's capabilities than an RV Salesman.

I think in terms of pick up trucks, you're probably right, Steve. Those vehicles are sold on their towing ability, or rather the power they have to pull heavy loads, so the manufacturers will spend time and money researching how their product will fair, most likely on the drawing board and in testing. I'm sure from stuff that I've read that manufacturers are often guilty of inflating their truck's capabilities in order to establish themselves in the market, but that's to be expected. Of course, few manufacturers are going to test their truck's capabilities using a very wide range of trailers and a very wide range of towing tools; it's much easier and cheaper to just go with a weight and publish it.

In terms of the smaller vehicles, Can Am RV's core market, then I do think Andy T is right when he says tow ratings are arbitrary, and I think he knows more than the manufacturer because he spends far more time and money test towing with these vehicles than they do. A minivan, for example, isn't marketed as a tow vehicle; it's a low margin product and their towing marketing efforts are aimed elsewhere, at the higher margin pick up truck. There's no economic reason, therefore, for them to do any tow design or test work at all just to satisfy that very small proportion of buyers who will use the minivan to tow. They just give the thing a "safe" tow rating, because the customer might want one, and continue to market at the "Soccer Mom". That doesn't mean, of course, that the minivan can't tow and that's where Andy T comes in, using his experience and a fair bit of real-world testing with differing trailers and tow tools; far more than the manufacturer will ever do, he can and does get that minivan to safely and effectively tow above the arbitrary tow rating.

Much as my friends in the Andersen threads will tell you, it's real world use that proves the product and in the case of Can Am RV, there are thousands of customers happily proving that the manufacturers' tow rating IS arbitrary.

I think in the case of vehicles not normally marketed for towing, this RV salesman really does know more than the manufacturer.

[wolf146]

We pull our 2004 - 30 foot Classic with a 2007 Tundra (double cab). We have about 50,000 miles on both truck and trailer and have had no problems even in the mountains of Colorado. We have pulled trailers for about 35 years throughout most parts of this country and I feel very comfortable with the Tundra-Airstream combination.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by Gene

A lot to cover.


And, conventional wisdom says the truck must be weight as much or more than the trailer plus a short wheelbase tow vehicle is dangerous. CW = unproved assertion that looks good until you start thinking about it. CW and "common sense" are the same. Tractor trailers can weigh as much as 40 tons and you know the tractor isn't 20 of them. And the trailer is much longer than the tractor. This question needs objective testing to find out what the truth is.

Now I can ignore this thread for another week.

Gene

This something that I think people overlook when talking about tow vehicles. I asked the question (on here) of a professional truck driver and he reckoned that the loaded trailer was three times the weight of the tractor. Yes, the towing point is like the 5er, over the rear axle, but when I'm told that my tow vehicle needs to be at least as heavy as the trailer in order to stop, then I remind them about eighteen wheelers.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by Moflash

A axle has a breaking point,a frame has a breaking point,a leaf spring has a breaking point...........Attachment bolts have a breaking point.Brakes can only stop a certain amount of weight safety. The people that design and engineer them test them and post the maximum load ratings for safety purposes.Whether you choose to acknowledge this fact or ignore it that is up to you.
I see very few mini vans or short wheelbase 1/2 ton pickups substituting for a Kenworth or Peterbuilt's as I travel the interstates.And by the way a semi tractor has a massive frame huge brakes and eight rear tires and was designed and tested to pull that large trailer.They are of fifth wheel design for a reason.
In all the rambling about Andy from a few people here,I have not seen any one of them post what was actually done to their vehicle to in some cases triple the payload of their vehicle.I doubt that they even know what he did.

I am just glad Andy does not modify aircraft or bridges...............

If you are going buy a vehicle to pull a Airstream.Just make sure it is designed and tested to do the job without compromising your or my safety.

Moflash,

Have a look at my blog (linked below my signature), I did an eight part entry on how Andy set up my tow vehicle under the title "The Black Art Of Towing".

Can Am has successfully set up thousands of tow vehicles and trailers over more than forty years; I think they know what they're doing.

[Moflash]

Toad

A semi tractor was designed to pull that size trailer.With 10 tires making contact with the road 6 sets of HD brakes plus engine brake as addition.5th wheel configuration for near perfect weight distribution
You can not use this to make your point for minivan that was unfortunately designed for soccer moms Not HD Towing.i don't care what you weld on it it was not designed for the application you have choose to use it for.

You can dig a foundation wit a tablespoon but that does mean its the right way to do it.

[SteveH]

You guys up North can rationalize all you want, but it won't change the weight capacity of a bearing, an axle, a brake system, a frame, a suspension system, a cooling system, etc., etc., etc.

[Gene]

I didn't wait a week. Of course tractors (for big OTR trailers) have more wheels on the pavement and more braking, however, that doesn't mean a tow vehicle for a trailer has to be smaller or larger than the trailer—just makes me wonder.

I don't know what Andy T actually does and don't want to take the time to read Mr. Toad's post. Maybe he welds 1" boiler plate to the undercarriage and puts turbos on the engine. But he does do something and it works for a lot of people. If I didn't need a pickup, I'd look into it.

Gene

[SteveH]

I'll make one last comment on this issue, and then I'm gone....in 1974 believe it was, my father who was towing a 31' Airstream at the time, began having suspension and wheel bearing/axle problems with a 1/2 ton Suburban, 454 engine, tow package equipped truck. The truck was under warranty, and he had been towing similar trailers for years with similar equipped trucks. After a couple of warranty repairs on the truck, the factory rep told him they would no longer repair anything on the truck because he was towing and carrying too much weight with the truck.

He traded the truck for a similarly equipped 3/4 ton Suburban. He never again had a weight related failure on the truck.

More than adequate evidence for me.

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by SteveH

You guys up North can rationalize all you want, but it won't change the weight capacity of a bearing, an axle, a brake system, a frame, a suspension system, a cooling system, etc., etc., etc.

I know you're gone but....

There's no record of failures for Andy's customers - make of that what you will.

It's at this point I should invoke the Andersen Gambit, that is "Don't knock it unless you're trying it", but I don't want to stifle the debate.

[rodsterinfl]

I agree with Steve on this one. A vehicle has tested limits from the manufacturer and they publish weight tolerance levels for towing and payload. Certainly one can weld a strong hitch and do some minor changes to a vehicle to perhaps beef up its ability but that does not change the vehicle makeup. So it can carry a few hundred pounds more but the vehicle as a whole remains the same. Recently I was reading about Class A motorhomes, how that some of them have improper wheelbase ratios for effective cruising in winds and others have too much rear overhang- never thought of it but perhaps more testing is needed. Pickups are tested and their tolerances are not random.

Regardless of what anyone says, some people will continue to tow with whatever will drag the trailer- if it moves it's good enough, they would say but, for the benefit of all with regard to insurance premiums and safety, I would hope the authorities would nail their butts if a wreck occurred; otherwise it establishes an unsafe and expensive activity for all who tow. "But judge, we had our mini cooper specially outfitted to haul our trailer. We know the tongue weight says 450 lbs but our customizer said it would hold 1000 lbs. easy."

Coworkers of mine in 2005 bought a new travel trailer to be towed with their Honda Odyssey mini van. They spent quite a bit of money having the mini van set up for towing their 26 foot trailer. (they were told it would be fine and would work) It ended up a nightmare - transmission overheating, control issues. Finally, they sold the van and the trailer and bought a class C motorhome 29' that they currently own. When they found that I was going to buy a trailer they were absolute in their negativity on trailers. They are horrible. We had a nightmare. They are too dangerous, wind will blow you all over the road, etc. I took the advice as based on an inadequate tow vehicle.

[Gene]

Steve, don't go. I want to challenge your post. Comparing an experience with a 1974 Suburban with recent model trucks does not seem valid. In the 70's, US manufacturers were slowly going downhill and selling bad vehicles, thus allowing the Japanese to enter the market here. I remember 2 cars my father owned—a late '60's Buick that would make me sick because of the strange motions of the suspension on any road, and an '85 Toronado that was a crappy car that I eventually inherited (I should have sold it to a senior citizen in Fla. where it was registered).

But moving on…

The debate over what Andy T does seems to boil down to:

1. It can't work. Those vehicles aren't made for towing big trailers.

2. It works and there have been no lawsuits or complaints from 1,000's of customers.

#1 ignores the fact that any vehicle can be modified to do more and some can be modified to do a lot.

#2 has the difficulty of proving what hasn't happened. Perhaps Andy gets sued every day, but settles every case before there's any publicity. Andy would have to be independently wealthy to do that, however.

I don't remember ever seeing any posts by disgruntled customers of Andy. It seems what he does is worth giving some credence to. I leave it to a committee of owners of 3/4 ton trucks to investigate this issue with open minds.

Gene

[MrUKToad]

Originally Posted by Gene

The debate over what Andy T does seems to boil down to:

1. It can't work. Those vehicles aren't made for towing big trailers.

2. It works and there have been no lawsuits or complaints from 1,000's of customers.

.....

I don't remember ever seeing any posts by disgruntled customers of Andy. It seems what he does is worth giving some credence to. I leave it to a committee of owners of 3/4 ton trucks to investigate this issue with open minds.

Gene

Very good, Gene. Nicely summed up as usual; I wish I had your clear sight.

A year or two back I had a short debate with a man at a campground in the US about my Toyota Sienna pulling my 28' International. He told me it couldn't be done. I said that surely the presence of both on the same camping site in the southern United States (given the Ontario tags) was proof enough that it could be done, but he still spent ten minutes telling me the error of my ways. And that sums up some of the debate here - we're doing it without fuss and in as much safety as anyone else and yet still we see posts saying that it can't be done.

I don't mind, though, I enjoy the debate. That is when I'm not writing letters of complaint to Mr Thompson......

[StreamNTyme]

See posts under
"Towing with a TDI VW Jetta"

[switz]

The Cat scale tickets do not lie. They are legally accepted proof of the axle weights and total rig weight.

The label on the door of a vehicle states maximum weight axle ratings and the total gross weight of the vehicle. If those numbers are NOT exceeded and routine maintenance is preformed and documented, then the warranty remains in effect if there might be a mechanical issues with the driveline or suspension.

As I posted earlier, my 2007 Mercedes brought the new EMPTY 25FB International Serenity home. The unit had additional weight from when it rolled out the factory door due to a solar panel on the roof, almost a 100 pounds of ZipDee awnings on the rear and street side of the trailer and a Hensley Arrow hitch on the front. While the factory literature states the tngue weight out the door is 833 pounds, the Shureline scales reported 1,150 pounds at the dealership.

After I changed the tires to Michelins and then crossed the scales. the Cat numbers showed the I did not overload either axle or the GVW of the car. I did have a greater weight trailer (about 5,500 pounds with a target GVW of 7,300 pounds) that exceeded the recommended max tow weight of 5,000 pounds.

After putting most of our "stuff", a full fresh water tank, a jack with stand and air compressor in the rear of the car, my wife and I crossed the Cat scales. We now exceeded the front axle rating, the GVW car rating and definitely exceeded the recommended maximum tow weight. The engine and drive line made a different sound even on the level, it was working much harder with the additional weight on behind (the tongue weight was higher as well).

I now had a legal document showing that I exceeded two out of the three maximum permissible weights posted on the door of the vehicle. My insurance agent stated that as long as the vehicle was RATED for the load, there would be no coverage issues for liability.

Thus the search began for a vehicle that would have adequate weight reserves and capability for towing this much trailer weight plus the other things that were not even in the Mercedes that we wanted to have with us.

That mission is now accomplished and I realize this truck is no Porsche for handling, but it does have much larger brakes plus engine exhaust braking and is rated to tow the largest Airstream plus the truck loaded with our "stuff". A strong defensive driving attitude and reasonable speeds will enable a safe trip with our combination.

I have seen farm tractor axles break from turning up the power on the motor or working with too large an implement. I could expect the metals in a tow vehicle to preform in a similar manner if overloaded.

YMMV

[m.hony]

No matter what tow vehicle you have there will be those that say it can't be done. My boss just doesn't believe my Tundra with the 5.7 motor will do it. He thinks I need a 6.6 Duramax diesel and Allison transmission. He thinks the engine will blow itself up and I cannot use cruise. I told him yesterday the next time I have my Tundra and 30' Classic at work he needed to drive it. I will make a believer out of him. Specs on paper is one thing. Real life is another. My so called 5.7 liter 381 horsepower engine feels a lot stronger and accelerates harder than his so-called 6.2 liter 425 horsepower Chevy. I do agree that the 6.6 Duramax and Allison transmission are awesome, but I can't afford another truck and my current truck with 11 payments to go has 26,000 miles. I don't need another truck. The one I have is doing great. I bought a used 2007 Classic Duramax diesel with an 8' box for the business yesterday. This truck has 102,000 miles and it is CLEAN. I wouldn't be ashamed to own it. Put my Harley in the 8' bed, hitch to my Airstream, and away we go. These good old trucks are still $20,000. I owe $6,600 on my Toyota.

[mefly2]

Well said Switz and Jace ... similar experiences here, too ...

[Gene]

Originally Posted by switz

The Cat scale tickets do not lie. They are legally accepted proof of the axle weights and total rig weight.

If you suspect you are overweight, even by 5 lbs., and you have no other vehicle to tow with, you probably shouldn't get it weighed. That way you can answer "no, not as far as I know" when asked after the accident whether you weighed it at a scale. This is one of those ironies where being dumb is helpful. However, if you calculated the weight from known quantities, you could be asked about that too. So, maybe it is best to be so dumb not to figure out anything just in case you get sued. Of course, a good lawyer who knows about towing would still know how to nail you. But it is better to be so dumb you just thought it was ok and not so smart to do the calculations or weigh the rig. At least it is not as intentional. I do not advise stupidity, however.

Gene

[Jim Flower]

Originally Posted by MrUKToad

Very good, Gene. Nicely summed up as usual; I wish I had your clear sight.

A year or two back I had a short debate with a man at a campground in the US about my Toyota Sienna pulling my 28' International. He told me it couldn't be done. I said that surely the presence of both on the same camping site in the southern United States (given the Ontario tags) was proof enough that it could be done, but he still spent ten minutes telling me the error of my ways. And that sums up some of the debate here - we're doing it without fuss and in as much safety as anyone else and yet still we see posts saying that it can't be done.

I admire your tenacity. I just can't get out of my head the formula for momentum where momentum equals mass times velocity. A lighter bunch of stuff stops faster than heavy stuff. It's why I follow a semi through heavy traffic. So if my math is correct, I am going to stop quicker than him and hopefully practice the number one rule in defensive driving, avoid collision. I can't count the number of times in my life that I have been told that I couldn't do what ever it was I was doing, mostly by people who have never tried whatever it was I was doing. Some people had some good advice, and I listened, but most of the time it was just old stuff based on myth, not first hand experience. So I identify with your southern experience, respectfully acknowledge their opinion or advice, and move on. It has worked for me so far. Jim

[truxpin]

Originally Posted by Jim Flower

momentum equals mass times velocity. A lighter bunch of stuff stops faster than heavy stuff. It's why I follow a semi through heavy traffic. So if my math is correct, I am going to stop quicker than him

I'm not so sure about your above theory on momentum Jim. I think there are a few more variables to the formula. But, I wanted to throw this out there for you to hopefully think about the next time your following a semi. As a CDL truck driver I can speak from experience..... A loaded tractor trailer stops 40% faster than the same one unloaded, and today ALL new OTR rigs have ABS braking on the tractors & trailers.
Following is fine, just not too close!

This thread has been great reading and very timely for me inparticular. I've been toying with the possibility of the 2014 5.7 Tundra. HD tow equipped with over 2000 lbs truck capacity & over 10,000 towing potential. But I'm sure this all will come at a price that pushes close to, or even into the 3/4 ton truck range.

[Jim Flower]

It has been 50 years since I studied physics and the laws of motion but I don't think Newton's laws have changed. I highly respect the skills of a professional driver and choose to follow them at a safe distance through heavy traffic because they simply do it better than everybody else. And I am confident that my 14,000 lbs will stop sooner than his 80,000 lbs or unloaded 30,000 lbs. Never had to test it though. I have had other tests,but not that one. Jim